ehct2332

Member
Dec 15, 2018
105
208
For me, personally, the story within BaDIK feels uninspired compared to the faszination I feel while staying in the world of Summers Gone.
The only thing that I wish had been written differently in Summer's Gone is the constant irritation that seems to follow the MC everywhere, which is evident in a lot of his thoughts and dialogue with others. He comes across as so easily triggered by so many scenarios, to the extent that Mila even refers to him as "our school shooter" jokingly early in the game. Keep in mind that Mila doesn't even know him properly yet. I think that his lingering annoyance and sensitivity could have been written in a more nuanced way, for sure. Example: He soldiers on in classes every week, and engages in group banter even, but those closest to him can see that there are dead giveaways that there's a lot of latent pain behind the MC's empty stares or rehearsed smiles. Instead, what we get is a guy whose body language screams depression to most of his peers, regardless of how little they know him. Adding more subtleties would have made the MC's character perfect, but this is just an opinion.

Having said that, it's pretty much my only issue with the game. I love Summer's Gone. I love Where It All Began, too. Life's hard enough. When you throw any traumatic event(s) into the mix, it can obviously be overwhelming. I guess I'm sold on the idea of a love interest having your back, so to speak; there's probably nothing more attractive for me in life than that, and the developer does this brilliantly in both games.
 

murphy88

Member
Apr 14, 2020
193
250
I don't know how good is WIAB (maybe I'll get a bad rap for saying what I'm going to say), because I haven't played it, but in my opinion Ocean should focus on SG and cancel WIAB, it would release chapters faster, it would have more support, and it would do better economically, WIAB in the end is a drag.
 

naniwtf

Newbie
Dec 16, 2020
83
237
not so easy when there's 356 patreons backing him for wiab. also wiab is far from a drag and katie is imo on par with bella as best girl
 
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Lorenz1

Active Member
Nov 1, 2017
879
2,337
It is hard to say anything about WIAB as the only thing we have so far is a demo, that keeps 350 patrons on board.

Summers Gone? It is a strange case. I feel like this game should have been about Bella from start to finish, as it is the only developed storyline. Finish one girl first, move to other path's later. I don't get any feel of the global plot from SG. It is a kind of cute high school therapeutic story? I guess?

I think the main point people are missing is that Being a DIK has 1573% more support
Yeh, but why does it have so much support? Cause it is consistent, developer's ambitions do not seem overreaching (cause he is delivering upon them every single time), and delivers exactly what it promises with a clear roadmap.

Regarding the DnD - with the rate of updates, that Ocean makes, every single update must be (and feel) crucial and plot-moving if a patron gets one update a year(or half a year), and it is a pure filler with no meaningful progression, he will cease being a patron fairly quickly. Unnecessary, but pretty, things are a luxury a dev with such update schedule can not afford.

Deliver the core of the project, worry about prettying it later.

Oceans is also a better writer and storyteller.
He isn't, though? They are simply writing in different genres. Ocean is writing heavy drama, Doctor a light romcom.

Summer's Gone right now is larger than a fair amount of games on this site, despite still being in its introductory stage
You said it yourself. A game this large and with such update schedule should not be in its introductory stage


Please keep in mind that he does most of this work himself the next time you're frustrated about development times
People are not frustrated with the development time, they are frustrated with the plot progression : dev time ration. If updates take so long, they must pay off - move plot forward, give player emotions or at least feeling of progression. In other words, feel complete, worthwhile and deliver value.

Spoiler, basketball game with no stakes is neither of those things.

Tldr; size of update is not about renders, animations or amount of text - it is about delivering emotional value and feeling of story progression and character development. Without them it is the best written and most beautifully animated filler episode that no one will even watch, cause who is watching fillers?
 
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Deleted member 327695

Member
Game Developer
Dec 11, 2017
438
9,859
I don't know how good is WIAB (maybe I'll get a bad rap for saying what I'm going to say), because I haven't played it, but in my opinion Ocean should focus on SG and cancel WIAB, it would release chapters faster, it would have more support, and it would do better economically, WIAB in the end is a drag.
Imagine having two children... One, always exceeding expectations, high grades, and the promise to visit an Elite-University one day.

The second child is much slower, there are many children that outclass it and it needs some sort of special care.
It's being treated like an outcast by some people, etc.

And now people come to you and say "Get rid of Child 2 to fully focus on Child 1. It has more promise anyways."


These games aren't just ways to make a living and some pretty art here and there... I care about them and it doesn't matter if WiAB's a financially dead end.

Its development speed and quality of assets might be affected by it. But I'll never abandon said "Child."

And if people don't want to support or play the games because of it that's totally fine.



Spoiler, basketball game with no stakes is neither of those things.
What makes you think the Basketball game in Chapter 3x5 was filler?

Let's recall some events that occurred there and might play a role again:

- The coaches, the first team, and others(?) saw MC play.
- The choice to meet up with Nia.
- The confrontation with Zara and Nadia.
- Some foreshadowing for at least three characters.
- Bilbo's side story introduction.

And there's much much more if we take the Warm-up before the game into account. (First real interaction with Sasha, Layla mentioning the yoga class, etc.)

And many people might see the TBT session as a filler.
All I'm saying is... Keep an eye open for the underlying issues and how they might affect a certain character. (Try to view a scene from the eyes of another character. Which can be tricky because the player is missing crucial info.)

My game is focused on long-term rewards. Not instant. (The difference between what you want now and what you really want.)


And a story about healing can't solely rely on "Relationships and girls".
It's about slowly building a secure fundament that even if MC and Girl X would break up, he wouldn't just fall back into the hole.
He's building a new life.


Please just keep in mind... There are tons of things already being foreshadowed that might sound like 'unnecessary' info but as soon as everything falls into place... You'll change your mind about some scenes being filler.

You said it yourself. A game this large and with such update schedule should not be in its introductory stage
Who says that?
You have games where the introduction is 2min long and 10 minutes later you're balls deep in the "Landlady".

And there are games like mine, where the introduction takes a while because you've got to introduce stuff and add depth.
SG has left the introduction with Chapter 3.

Every dev should have the freedom to decide that for himself.
If the Intro is 15min, fine cool.
If it's 5 Chapters... Also cool, as long as the dev is aware of its cons.

And I'm aware that many people will stop following the game due to its length/size and current update cycle.

That's okay, I wish those guys/girls the best and maybe they'll find back when the game's in a much more advanced state.


Tldr; size of update is not about renders, animations or amount of text - it is about delivering emotional value and feeling of story progression and character development. Without them it is the best written and most beautifully animated filler episode that no one will even watch, cause who is watching fillers?
I totally agree with this, though.

Quality > Quantity

But building character relationships, etc. is a way of driving the plot forward.

Just give it some time and you'll see how all those strings start connecting.
 

D9074

Active Member
Feb 21, 2021
718
1,325
I think the main point people are missing is that Being a DIK has 1573% more support (just did some quick math) just from Patreon, didn't count Steam so it's even more.

The fact that when in need of a comparison for this game people instantly jump to one of the most supported one is a testament to its quality. It's like comparing a startup to Microsoft support-wise.

I'm not saying if the game got thrice the support it would be delivered three times faster, it doesn't work like that, but just in the latest dev log few pages back (if the mods didn't remove it for being off-topic lol) Ocean said he found the right animation tool but he cannot afford it. None of the games people just compared it to would have that problem, because they simply have that much more support.

Yet apparently people have the same expectations from the 5th AVN dev and the 200th (source: graphtreon). It's madness.
that is way too much logic for some people here, im sure they will still shit talk. this is so right though, so many people go straight to that game as a comparison. Too many are simple minded with things and just cant see the bigger picture.
 

D9074

Active Member
Feb 21, 2021
718
1,325
Quality has it's price, I'd rather wait than have a rushed one. His games are the excellency of the excellents, top notch, fun to play/read and good to look at. No one wants a bugy mess full of plotholes, weird animations or images.
exactly, theres a few games here that i wont mention that ill see updated, ill go download thinking its got a lot of new content because its been 2+months and there is about 10 minutes worth of content.. id much rather wait and get more out of it.
 

reyreynao

Member
Nov 12, 2020
108
94
exactly, theres a few games here that i wont mention that ill see updated, ill go download thinking its got a lot of new content because its been 2+months and there is about 10 minutes worth of content.. id much rather wait and get more out of it.
Yes it is more disappointing if you download a new update, delete the old one and bring the save data over only for a few more lines or images of gameplay. Which results in taking more time to set it all up than the actual progress in form of gameplay...
 

Fortuna ღ

Member
May 13, 2020
272
4,841
He isn't, though? They are simply writing in different genres. Ocean is writing heavy drama, Doctor a light romcom.
And? They both use writing practices employed across all genres. Dialogue, coherence, plot, conflict, etc. The fact that they're in different genres is only relevant when it comes to their narrative structure and their dramatic structure. Their themes, amongst other things, are obviously different, but this does not mean that we cannot compare how they guide their audiences throughout these themes. H.P Lovecraft is constantly compared to many famous writers throughout history, despite his origins in the genre of cosmic horror. If we allowed the boundaries of genre to limit our discussions when it came to narrative practices, we'd have never progressed in literature. But to keep on track, Ocean does a better job of engaging with his audience and capturing their focus(amongst other things). He also does a better job(albeit slightly) at pure storytelling. DPC is still one of the best writers on this site, but he is not the best in all aspects. COBD is currently the best when it comes to setting its story, as it currently has the best atmosphere of all AVNs currently on the site(though it is challenged by games like Eternum and Artemis). I never fully compared their plots due to them being different aspects of the same subgenre. But if it was purely a comparison of plot formation and audience engagement, Oceanlab would edge out DPC.
You said it yourself. A game this large and with such update schedule should not be in its introductory stage
I mean no disrespect when I ask, who made you the great decider on how long an author's story should be? Or when their story should conclude its introduction and venture out into its body? I'll say one thing. At the end of the day, this is art, and every artist moves at their own pace. I'm certain you would not have liked any of the top AVNs were they rushed or mishandled. But it seems like that's exactly what some of you people want to see happen to Summer's Gone.
People are not frustrated with the development time, they are frustrated with the plot progression : dev time ration. If updates take so long, they must pay off - move plot forward, give player emotions or at least feeling of progression. In other words, feel complete, worthwhile and deliver value.

Spoiler, basketball game with no stakes is neither of those things.

Tldr; size of update is not about renders, animations or amount of text - it is about delivering emotional value and feeling of story progression and character development. Without them it is the best written and most beautifully animated filler episode that no one will even watch, cause who is watching fillers?
Most of the audience loves this plot as it is. Have you seen what happens when an author rushes their projects due to pressure from their audience? I'll say to you here what I've said to everyone else with a similar outlook. Do not support this game if you're unwilling to be in it for the long haul. If you dislike what's happening as far as development, then leave(no one's stopping you).

Every single update has moved the plot forward. Every single update has made the player feel emotions. Every single update has progressed the story in many ways. I'm not really sure where you were going with any of that. Most people here have felt all of the above.

The only people complaining about the basketball game are people who don't care for the story. Oceanlab has said time and time again that sports is an essential part of the overall story, yet somehow there are still people complaining about its inclusion. It amazes me that these people can somehow see ahead in the future and relay back to us that the basketball game is not needed. It amazes me that those people know the story enough to decide what should be in it and what should not. Just how many of you guys glossed over the part where there'd be a sports competition? Lol

In the end, the only people that truly believe that this was a filler episode, are the ones that never paid that much attention to begin with. I'm actually a bit surprised that so many people agreed with you lol.
 
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D9074

Active Member
Feb 21, 2021
718
1,325
I love when some come here and are like "people are mad at this and that" most that come here love this game, love everything about it and are willing to wait for updates and dont complain.

they use other games and say oh this intro is too long or it takes too long to progress this and that, i genuinely dont think it does at all.. i think the ones who say this are so used to these games where the characters are fucking within 10 minutes. there is legit nothing wrong with that btw if thats you, go play them games and have fun.. ive played loads of games like that but are they in my top ones? hell no.. the games that stick out to me the most and the ones i look forward to are the slow burn with great storys. if your character goes and fucks a girl within 10 mins, after a few times it loses all meaning, its boring to me. just like IRL i have never gone for the easy girl, its a put off and its not fun..

games that build up the story, introduce all of these characters, a lot of them with a deep story behind them, its impossible to do it justice without it being a long drawn out intro.. games where there is deep problems from peoples pasts, deep problems within them right now.. they are not just going to just jump on eachother.. the build up is everything and if its done right it can create something special, if any of that is rushed it can legit ruin the whole game and story imo.

if slow burn is not for you, if storys that take a while to build up and get into action or anything like that is not for you then just go and find the ones that you enjoy.. dont be that person that comes to complain and say exactly what you want and expect it to change just for you because its legit selfish as fuck. at that point you dont care about the 90% who enjoy it you care about you. There are so many games here that are not my type and you wont see me comment in any of them, i respect the people that make them and respect the people that like them.. maybe the ones that do this are younger and need to realise and learn a few things idk.
 

lipe2410

Forum Fanatic
Dec 23, 2018
4,985
19,033
Don't wanna talk about this subject because i already did it in WIAB thread. But i'm stupid so fuck it, here i go: At the current pace of 1 "full" chapter (1 half-chapter + 1 half-chapter) per year and with 26 chapters left to release after chapter 4, the math is simple: SG will be completed just in 2048, 26 years from now. Not "a while". Not a few or some years. But more than a quarter of a century. And despite the whole high-quality that SG promisses deliver, this is simply bad for many reasons. First because we, either players and devs, are not immortal vampires that will live and be young forever. Second and more critical is that neither SG and WIAB are the only games that Ocean wanna make. He already told that this "zane-universe" will have another 3 games that he will not start develop until SG and WIAB are finished.

What he can make to change that is not a mystery for anyone, although nothing simple to achieve: release faster to decrease the estimated time to finish. It still can take long simply because the story is long. Just to put in perspective, even with 4 half chapters released per year the game will take 13 years to finish. Still a lot of years but already way better than 26. Maybe comeback to release full chapters instead of half-chapters without increase release time. Or even rewrite the story to fit in less than 30 chapters, but i think humans will colonize Mars before Ocean even think about that ;)

I admire and respect Ocean's work. I understand how hard is make a VN, even more one like SG and WIAB. I wish he make all the games he wanna make, the way he wanna make and get all the succes he can get. I really don't want sound a hater, whining or put pressure on him and i'm sorry beforehand if i did that. I know that he have made huge improvements in the way he develop both games. But time is a critical issue. Time doesn't stop or wait for anyone and our time is limited. And i can't not worry sometimes that Ocean's games are to ambitious for one person achieve in a lifetime.
 

Ragnar

Super User
Respected User
Aug 5, 2016
4,754
12,869
Don't wanna talk about this subject because i already did it in WIAB thread. But i'm stupid so fuck it, here i go: At the current pace of 1 "full" chapter (1 half-chapter + 1 half-chapter) per year and with 26 chapters left to release after chapter 4, the math is simple: SG will be completed just in 2048, 26 years from now. Not "a while". Not a few or some years. But more than a quarter of a century. And despite the whole high-quality that SG promisses deliver, this is simply bad for many reasons. First because we, either players and devs, are not immortal vampires that will live and be young forever. Second and more critical is that neither SG and WIAB are the only games that Ocean wanna make. He already told that this "zane-universe" will have another 3 games that he will not start develop until SG and WIAB are finished.

What he can make to change that is not a mystery for anyone, although nothing simple to achieve: release faster to decrease the estimated time to finish. It still can take long simply because the story is long. Just to put in perspective, even with 4 half chapters released per year the game will take 13 years to finish. Still a lot of years but already way better than 26. Maybe comeback to release full chapters instead of half-chapters without increase release time. Or even rewrite the story to fit in less than 30 chapters, but i think humans will colonize Mars before Ocean even think about that ;)

I admire and respect Ocean's work. I understand how hard is make a VN, even more one like SG and WIAB. I wish he make all the games he wanna make, the way he wanna make and get all the succes he can get. I really don't want sound a hater, whining or put pressure on him and i'm sorry beforehand if i did that. I know that he have made huge improvements in the way he develop both games. But time is a critical issue. Time doesn't stop or wait for anyone and our time is limited. And i can't not worry sometimes that Ocean's games are to ambitious for one person achieve in a lifetime.
Yeah, the 30 chapters schedule seems crazy for sure but we don't know what can happen in the future.
Being optimistic new software or hardware can speed development time significantly in the future. Maybe Ocean will hire a malaysian crypto farm to help with his renders, who knows?
Being pessimistic there will be another remake in a couple of years because the quality standards are gonna be much higher than they are now. Side note, this is why remakes are a bad idea before completion of the project.
In any case he's the dev and he should do what he wants with his projects. Even if the task at hand is like painting the Sistine Chapel with a toothbrush.
 
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