- Feb 2, 2021
- 190
- 3,262
- Thread starter 7767
- Start date
It is hard to say anything about WIAB as the only thing we have so far is a demo, that keeps 350 patrons on board.
Summers Gone? It is a strange case. I feel like this game should have been about Bella from start to finish, as it is the only developed storyline. Finish one girl first, move to other path's later. I don't get any feel of the global plot from SG. It is a kind of cute high school therapeutic story? I guess?
Regarding the DnD - with the rate of updates, that Ocean makes, every single update must be (and feel) crucial and plot-moving if a patron gets one update a year(or half a year), and it is a pure filler with no meaningful progression, he will cease being a patron fairly quickly. Unnecessary, but pretty, things are a luxury a dev with such update schedule can not afford.
Deliver the core of the project, worry about prettying it later.
Spoiler, basketball game with no stakes is neither of those things.
Tldr; size of update is not about renders, animations or amount of text - it is about delivering emotional value and feeling of story progression and character development. Without them it is the best written and most beautifully animated filler episode that no one will even watch, cause who is watching fillers?
Summers Gone? It is a strange case. I feel like this game should have been about Bella from start to finish, as it is the only developed storyline. Finish one girl first, move to other path's later. I don't get any feel of the global plot from SG. It is a kind of cute high school therapeutic story? I guess?
Yeh, but why does it have so much support? Cause it is consistent, developer's ambitions do not seem overreaching (cause he is delivering upon them every single time), and delivers exactly what it promises with a clear roadmap.
Regarding the DnD - with the rate of updates, that Ocean makes, every single update must be (and feel) crucial and plot-moving if a patron gets one update a year(or half a year), and it is a pure filler with no meaningful progression, he will cease being a patron fairly quickly. Unnecessary, but pretty, things are a luxury a dev with such update schedule can not afford.
Deliver the core of the project, worry about prettying it later.
He isn't, though? They are simply writing in different genres. Ocean is writing heavy drama, Doctor a light romcom.
You said it yourself. A game this large and with such update schedule should not be in its introductory stage
People are not frustrated with the development time, they are frustrated with the plot progression : dev time ration. If updates take so long, they must pay off - move plot forward, give player emotions or at least feeling of progression. In other words, feel complete, worthwhile and deliver value.
Spoiler, basketball game with no stakes is neither of those things.
Tldr; size of update is not about renders, animations or amount of text - it is about delivering emotional value and feeling of story progression and character development. Without them it is the best written and most beautifully animated filler episode that no one will even watch, cause who is watching fillers?
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Imagine having two children... One, always exceeding expectations, high grades, and the promise to visit an Elite-University one day.
The second child is much slower, there are many children that outclass it and it needs some sort of special care.
It's being treated like an outcast by some people, etc.
And now people come to you and say "Get rid of Child 2 to fully focus on Child 1. It has more promise anyways."
These games aren't just ways to make a living and some pretty art here and there... I care about them and it doesn't matter if WiAB's a financially dead end.
Its development speed and quality of assets might be affected by it. But I'll never abandon said "Child."
And if people don't want to support or play the games because of it that's totally fine.
What makes you think the Basketball game in Chapter 3x5 was filler?
Let's recall some events that occurred there and might play a role again:
- The coaches, the first team, and others(?) saw MC play.
- The choice to meet up with Nia.
- The confrontation with Zara and Nadia.
- Some foreshadowing for at least three characters.
- Bilbo's side story introduction.
And there's much much more if we take the Warm-up before the game into account. (First real interaction with Sasha, Layla mentioning the yoga class, etc.)
And many people might see the TBT session as a filler.
All I'm saying is... Keep an eye open for the underlying issues and how they might affect a certain character. (Try to view a scene from the eyes of another character. Which can be tricky because the player is missing crucial info.)
My game is focused on long-term rewards. Not instant. (The difference between what you want now and what you really want.)
And a story about healing can't solely rely on "Relationships and girls".
It's about slowly building a secure fundament that even if MC and Girl X would break up, he wouldn't just fall back into the hole.
He's building a new life.
Please just keep in mind... There are tons of things already being foreshadowed that might sound like 'unnecessary' info but as soon as everything falls into place... You'll change your mind about some scenes being filler.
Who says that?
You have games where the introduction is 2min long and 10 minutes later you're balls deep in the "Landlady".
And there are games like mine, where the introduction takes a while because you've got to introduce stuff and add depth.
SG has left the introduction with Chapter 3.
Every dev should have the freedom to decide that for himself.
If the Intro is 15min, fine cool.
If it's 5 Chapters... Also cool, as long as the dev is aware of its cons.
And I'm aware that many people will stop following the game due to its length/size and current update cycle.
That's okay, I wish those guys/girls the best and maybe they'll find back when the game's in a much more advanced state.
I totally agree with this, though.
Quality > Quantity
But building character relationships, etc. is a way of driving the plot forward.
Just give it some time and you'll see how all those strings start connecting.
And now I feel like a duft cunt.
Do your thing, Ocean. You clearly love it. We will keep bitching about in the meantime.
- Oct 22, 2017
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Also a method to solve the problem
- Feb 23, 2021
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Oceanlab of course no one should abandon his less successful child, but more successful one should not be dragged down either.
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Quality has it's price, I'd rather wait than have a rushed one. His games are the excellency of the excellents, top notch, fun to play/read and good to look at. No one wants a bugy mess full of plotholes, weird animations or images.
- Feb 21, 2021
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that is way too much logic for some people here, im sure they will still shit talk. this is so right though, so many people go straight to that game as a comparison. Too many are simple minded with things and just cant see the bigger picture.
- Feb 21, 2021
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exactly, theres a few games here that i wont mention that ill see updated, ill go download thinking its got a lot of new content because its been 2+months and there is about 10 minutes worth of content.. id much rather wait and get more out of it.
Yes it is more disappointing if you download a new update, delete the old one and bring the save data over only for a few more lines or images of gameplay. Which results in taking more time to set it all up than the actual progress in form of gameplay...
- May 13, 2020
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And? They both use writing practices employed across all genres. Dialogue, coherence, plot, conflict, etc. The fact that they're in different genres is only relevant when it comes to their narrative structure and their dramatic structure. Their themes, amongst other things, are obviously different, but this does not mean that we cannot compare how they guide their audiences throughout these themes. H.P Lovecraft is constantly compared to many famous writers throughout history, despite his origins in the genre of cosmic horror. If we allowed the boundaries of genre to limit our discussions when it came to narrative practices, we'd have never progressed in literature. But to keep on track, Ocean does a better job of engaging with his audience and capturing their focus(amongst other things). He also does a better job(albeit slightly) at pure storytelling. DPC is still one of the best writers on this site, but he is not the best in all aspects. COBD is currently the best when it comes to setting its story, as it currently has the best atmosphere of all AVNs currently on the site(though it is challenged by games like Eternum and Artemis). I never fully compared their plots due to them being different aspects of the same subgenre. But if it was purely a comparison of plot formation and audience engagement, Oceanlab would edge out DPC.
I mean no disrespect when I ask, who made you the great decider on how long an author's story should be? Or when their story should conclude its introduction and venture out into its body? I'll say one thing. At the end of the day, this is art, and every artist moves at their own pace. I'm certain you would not have liked any of the top AVNs were they rushed or mishandled. But it seems like that's exactly what some of you people want to see happen to Summer's Gone.
Most of the audience loves this plot as it is. Have you seen what happens when an author rushes their projects due to pressure from their audience? I'll say to you here what I've said to everyone else with a similar outlook. Do not support this game if you're unwilling to be in it for the long haul. If you dislike what's happening as far as development, then leave(no one's stopping you).
Every single update has moved the plot forward. Every single update has made the player feel emotions. Every single update has progressed the story in many ways. I'm not really sure where you were going with any of that. Most people here have felt all of the above.
The only people complaining about the basketball game are people who don't care for the story. Oceanlab has said time and time again that sports is an essential part of the overall story, yet somehow there are still people complaining about its inclusion. It amazes me that these people can somehow see ahead in the future and relay back to us that the basketball game is not needed. It amazes me that those people know the story enough to decide what should be in it and what should not. Just how many of you guys glossed over the part where there'd be a sports competition? Lol
In the end, the only people that truly believe that this was a filler episode, are the ones that never paid that much attention to begin with. I'm actually a bit surprised that so many people agreed with you lol.
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- Feb 21, 2021
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I love when some come here and are like "people are mad at this and that" most that come here love this game, love everything about it and are willing to wait for updates and dont complain.
they use other games and say oh this intro is too long or it takes too long to progress this and that, i genuinely dont think it does at all.. i think the ones who say this are so used to these games where the characters are fucking within 10 minutes. there is legit nothing wrong with that btw if thats you, go play them games and have fun.. ive played loads of games like that but are they in my top ones? hell no.. the games that stick out to me the most and the ones i look forward to are the slow burn with great storys. if your character goes and fucks a girl within 10 mins, after a few times it loses all meaning, its boring to me. just like IRL i have never gone for the easy girl, its a put off and its not fun..
games that build up the story, introduce all of these characters, a lot of them with a deep story behind them, its impossible to do it justice without it being a long drawn out intro.. games where there is deep problems from peoples pasts, deep problems within them right now.. they are not just going to just jump on eachother.. the build up is everything and if its done right it can create something special, if any of that is rushed it can legit ruin the whole game and story imo.
if slow burn is not for you, if storys that take a while to build up and get into action or anything like that is not for you then just go and find the ones that you enjoy.. dont be that person that comes to complain and say exactly what you want and expect it to change just for you because its legit selfish as fuck. at that point you dont care about the 90% who enjoy it you care about you. There are so many games here that are not my type and you wont see me comment in any of them, i respect the people that make them and respect the people that like them.. maybe the ones that do this are younger and need to realise and learn a few things idk.
they use other games and say oh this intro is too long or it takes too long to progress this and that, i genuinely dont think it does at all.. i think the ones who say this are so used to these games where the characters are fucking within 10 minutes. there is legit nothing wrong with that btw if thats you, go play them games and have fun.. ive played loads of games like that but are they in my top ones? hell no.. the games that stick out to me the most and the ones i look forward to are the slow burn with great storys. if your character goes and fucks a girl within 10 mins, after a few times it loses all meaning, its boring to me. just like IRL i have never gone for the easy girl, its a put off and its not fun..
games that build up the story, introduce all of these characters, a lot of them with a deep story behind them, its impossible to do it justice without it being a long drawn out intro.. games where there is deep problems from peoples pasts, deep problems within them right now.. they are not just going to just jump on eachother.. the build up is everything and if its done right it can create something special, if any of that is rushed it can legit ruin the whole game and story imo.
if slow burn is not for you, if storys that take a while to build up and get into action or anything like that is not for you then just go and find the ones that you enjoy.. dont be that person that comes to complain and say exactly what you want and expect it to change just for you because its legit selfish as fuck. at that point you dont care about the 90% who enjoy it you care about you. There are so many games here that are not my type and you wont see me comment in any of them, i respect the people that make them and respect the people that like them.. maybe the ones that do this are younger and need to realise and learn a few things idk.
- Dec 23, 2018
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Don't wanna talk about this subject because i already did it in WIAB thread. But i'm stupid so fuck it, here i go: At the current pace of 1 "full" chapter (1 half-chapter + 1 half-chapter) per year and with 26 chapters left to release after chapter 4, the math is simple: SG will be completed just in 2048, 26 years from now. Not "a while". Not a few or some years. But more than a quarter of a century. And despite the whole high-quality that SG promisses deliver, this is simply bad for many reasons. First because we, either players and devs, are not immortal vampires that will live and be young forever. Second and more critical is that neither SG and WIAB are the only games that Ocean wanna make. He already told that this "zane-universe" will have another 3 games that he will not start develop until SG and WIAB are finished.
What he can make to change that is not a mystery for anyone, although nothing simple to achieve: release faster to decrease the estimated time to finish. It still can take long simply because the story is long. Just to put in perspective, even with 4 half chapters released per year the game will take 13 years to finish. Still a lot of years but already way better than 26. Maybe comeback to release full chapters instead of half-chapters without increase release time. Or even rewrite the story to fit in less than 30 chapters, but i think humans will colonize Mars before Ocean even think about that
I admire and respect Ocean's work. I understand how hard is make a VN, even more one like SG and WIAB. I wish he make all the games he wanna make, the way he wanna make and get all the succes he can get. I really don't want sound a hater, whining or put pressure on him and i'm sorry beforehand if i did that. I know that he have made huge improvements in the way he develop both games. But time is a critical issue. Time doesn't stop or wait for anyone and our time is limited. And i can't not worry sometimes that Ocean's games are to ambitious for one person achieve in a lifetime.
What he can make to change that is not a mystery for anyone, although nothing simple to achieve: release faster to decrease the estimated time to finish. It still can take long simply because the story is long. Just to put in perspective, even with 4 half chapters released per year the game will take 13 years to finish. Still a lot of years but already way better than 26. Maybe comeback to release full chapters instead of half-chapters without increase release time. Or even rewrite the story to fit in less than 30 chapters, but i think humans will colonize Mars before Ocean even think about that
I admire and respect Ocean's work. I understand how hard is make a VN, even more one like SG and WIAB. I wish he make all the games he wanna make, the way he wanna make and get all the succes he can get. I really don't want sound a hater, whining or put pressure on him and i'm sorry beforehand if i did that. I know that he have made huge improvements in the way he develop both games. But time is a critical issue. Time doesn't stop or wait for anyone and our time is limited. And i can't not worry sometimes that Ocean's games are to ambitious for one person achieve in a lifetime.
- Aug 5, 2016
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Yeah, the 30 chapters schedule seems crazy for sure but we don't know what can happen in the future.Don't wanna talk about this subject because i already did it in WIAB thread. But i'm stupid so fuck it, here i go: At the current pace of 1 "full" chapter (1 half-chapter + 1 half-chapter) per year and with 26 chapters left to release after chapter 4, the math is simple: SG will be completed just in 2048, 26 years from now. Not "a while". Not a few or some years. But more than a quarter of a century. And despite the whole high-quality that SG promisses deliver, this is simply bad for many reasons. First because we, either players and devs, are not immortal vampires that will live and be young forever. Second and more critical is that neither SG and WIAB are the only games that Ocean wanna make. He already told that this "zane-universe" will have another 3 games that he will not start develop until SG and WIAB are finished.
What he can make to change that is not a mystery for anyone, although nothing simple to achieve: release faster to decrease the estimated time to finish. It still can take long simply because the story is long. Just to put in perspective, even with 4 half chapters released per year the game will take 13 years to finish. Still a lot of years but already way better than 26. Maybe comeback to release full chapters instead of half-chapters without increase release time. Or even rewrite the story to fit in less than 30 chapters, but i think humans will colonize Mars before Ocean even think about that
I admire and respect Ocean's work. I understand how hard is make a VN, even more one like SG and WIAB. I wish he make all the games he wanna make, the way he wanna make and get all the succes he can get. I really don't want sound a hater, whining or put pressure on him and i'm sorry beforehand if i did that. I know that he have made huge improvements in the way he develop both games. But time is a critical issue. Time doesn't stop or wait for anyone and our time is limited. And i can't not worry sometimes that Ocean's games are to ambitious for one person achieve in a lifetime.
Being optimistic new software or hardware can speed development time significantly in the future. Maybe Ocean will hire a malaysian crypto farm to help with his renders, who knows?
Being pessimistic there will be another remake in a couple of years because the quality standards are gonna be much higher than they are now. Side note, this is why remakes are a bad idea before completion of the project.
In any case he's the dev and he should do what he wants with his projects. Even if the task at hand is like painting the Sistine Chapel with a toothbrush.
- May 13, 2020
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I'll also say to this what I've been wanting to say to everyone else with this outlook. This view would have been a credible one were we to go based on the assumption that Oceanlab would not improve in any aspect, and continue to release updates at the same pace on a yearly basis. This outlook was formed off of the belief that Oceanlab cannot make any improvements, and thus will not ever improve from the 1 update per year development rate. I personally believe that is quite a flawed view, as Oceanlab has shown and proven that he is the kind of person to put any and all support to good use. He is always searching for avenues to improve for us(his audience). Assuming this next update were to be brought forth sometime this month, or early May, it won't be that far-fetched to hold the belief that he can bring forth another update before the year is finished. Oceanlab is only human. He's made some mistakes, sure, but people are acting like he cannot improve(or has not improved already since Summer's Gone chapter 1). All he's done since taking on Summer's Gone as a serious project is to make improvements. He's not just wasting away the funds. But given what some people are saying, you'd swear that were the case lol.Don't wanna talk about this subject because i already did it in WIAB thread. But i'm stupid so fuck it, here i go: At the current pace of 1 "full" chapter (1 half-chapter + 1 half-chapter) per year and with 26 chapters left to release after chapter 4, the math is simple: SG will be completed just in 2048, 26 years from now. Not "a while". Not a few or some years. But more than a quarter of a century. And despite the whole high-quality that SG promisses deliver, this is simply bad for many reasons. First because we, either players and devs, are not immortal vampires that will live and be young forever. Second and more critical is that neither SG and WIAB are the only games that Ocean wanna make. He already told that this "zane-universe" will have another 3 games that he will not start develop until SG and WIAB are finished.
What he can make to change that is not a mystery for anyone, although nothing simple to achieve: release faster to decrease the estimated time to finish. It still can take long simply because the story is long. Just to put in perspective, even with 4 half chapters released per year the game will take 13 years to finish. Still a lot of years but already way better than 26. Maybe comeback to release full chapters instead of half-chapters without increase release time. Or even rewrite the story to fit in less than 30 chapters, but i think humans will colonize Mars before Ocean even think about that
I admire and respect Ocean's work. I understand how hard is make a VN, even more one like SG and WIAB. I wish he make all the games he wanna make, the way he wanna make and get all the succes he can get. I really don't want sound a hater, whining or put pressure on him and i'm sorry beforehand if i did that. I know that he have made huge improvements in the way he develop both games. But time is a critical issue. Time doesn't stop or wait for anyone and our time is limited. And i can't not worry sometimes that Ocean's games are to ambitious for one person achieve in a lifetime.
It's getting a bit funny for me how often I've had to repeat this sentiment, but if people are unwilling to see this game as a long-term investment, then they should save themselves the time and move on. Most people complaining, are complaining due to them liking this AVN, but being too impatient to wait for the author's updates. They love the game but hate the development period. A family member of mine wanted a video game called Cyberpunk 2077. He always expressed how it would have been the best sci-fi game ever and whatnot. Then all of a sudden he stopped bringing it up. When I'd asked him about it, it was because both the audience and the development company made the studio rush their work. What came was not the same work of art that everyone had seemingly been anticipating, but a rather huge let-down that crushed the hopes of many. It's sad too because I actually wanted the game lol. These updates will come when they're ready, not when you(speaking generally) think they should be ready. If you guys(speaking generally) cannot handle that, then it's better for you to move on. But do not come here and complain about something that you're probably obtaining for free, anyway.
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- Oct 22, 2017
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I do not understand why you are hung up on these ominous thirty chapters. Anyone who has not gone through life without their eyes closed should have learned by now that nothing in life is as hot as it is cooked.
- Feb 21, 2021
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legit said this same thing here so much now, i dont get how they dont see it. they base everything on the pace before even though ocean said himself that he can do more now than last year.. its like they think the current pace will never improve, or its impossible that they end up with more support which they can use to get more hardware/software or hire help.. if only people could look at shit from different angles insead of tunnel vision.