I get Love and Hate vibes from 9 and 10. Mostly from Eisheth and also kinda from Demi.
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DrakoGhoul
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While anything's possible, the twins seem to make up the universe in a dualistic manner. In the sense that they have cosmic properties that govern everything.
Demi's power alters perception and emotions which could be a memory and authority trait. Monsters breeding a lot created many traits so it's not exactly guaranteed that it hints at an Apostle Trait. 9th and 10th was originally thought to be Death and Destruction by me before the reveal this update but it seems that Life falls under Creation which eliminated the need for the Life and Death duality. Especially since Destruction is now the 11th.
The only thing I can think of at the moment is Cause (9th) and Effect (10th) with the combined power being Causality. I'll have work out some ideas after rereading Eisheth memory scene again. It does hint at what her trait could be but we'll likely have to wait and see.
lorkdubo
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Demi's monster does kinda look like higher up the scale. Something with emotions and could be a good fit for Liz.
DrakoGhoul
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Mmm, I think cause and effect are a bit too esoteric. Sure, they're a duology, but not really in the same way as the other ones. It's kinda funky to talk about one without the other.
DrakoGhoul
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Order is the original trait of Authority and Power. Chaos or Change could be the original trait of the 3rd and 4th.
Unless you can think of another set of powers that could govern reality and complete each other. Cause and Effect are one of the last few left.
DrakoGhoul
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How would that work though? With what Eisheth showed.
Is and Is Not is Reality and Fiction, Real and Unreal or True and False. That's more into the God territory, if it was a thing. Not so much the 6 Arbiters and 12 Apostles.
Gtdead
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It's more likely for Eisheth's Apostle to be relevant to her powers than her state of mind, and the main ability we can observe is telekinesis. Telekinesis is about motion, so a possible apostolic pair could be Motion and Inertia. Very Newtonian!
This is how I perceive the apostolic concepts. Those who were born first were the building blocks for those who came after. It works a bit like a chain, although it's not exact:
1) Authority / Behavior -> Determines the behaviors of everything. The laws of the universe
2) Power / Energy -> The universe started as various energies that interacted and created the rest, according to the laws of authority.
3) Body / Matter -> Energy can create matter.
4) Memory / Structure -> The structure of matter determines it's properties
5) Time / Causality -> Time as a concept exists because we can observe matter. It's powers seem to manipulate cause and effect.
6) Space / Dimensions -> Matter has dimensions and mass creates gravity
7) Dark -> This one is a bit odd conceptually. It could refer to the absense of matter, or something related to the default state of the universe.
8) Light -> Light symbolizes many things, so again I'm not sure how it works conceptually, but it requires matter and structure in order to exist.
9) (Speculation) Motion -> Through the interaction of energy, matter and space, objects can move relative to one another.
10) (Speculation) Inertia -> Objects want to retain their state of movement.
11) Destruction / Annihilation -> The combination of the previous concepts that facilitates the transformation of matter to energy.
12) Creation / Purpose -> The combination of all the previous concepts to create objects with purpose.
Of course some of my descriptions are a bit iffy but I don't have a better way to present them.
This is how I perceive the apostolic concepts. Those who were born first were the building blocks for those who came after. It works a bit like a chain, although it's not exact:
1) Authority / Behavior -> Determines the behaviors of everything. The laws of the universe
2) Power / Energy -> The universe started as various energies that interacted and created the rest, according to the laws of authority.
3) Body / Matter -> Energy can create matter.
4) Memory / Structure -> The structure of matter determines it's properties
5) Time / Causality -> Time as a concept exists because we can observe matter. It's powers seem to manipulate cause and effect.
6) Space / Dimensions -> Matter has dimensions and mass creates gravity
7) Dark -> This one is a bit odd conceptually. It could refer to the absense of matter, or something related to the default state of the universe.
8) Light -> Light symbolizes many things, so again I'm not sure how it works conceptually, but it requires matter and structure in order to exist.
9) (Speculation) Motion -> Through the interaction of energy, matter and space, objects can move relative to one another.
10) (Speculation) Inertia -> Objects want to retain their state of movement.
11) Destruction / Annihilation -> The combination of the previous concepts that facilitates the transformation of matter to energy.
12) Creation / Purpose -> The combination of all the previous concepts to create objects with purpose.
Of course some of my descriptions are a bit iffy but I don't have a better way to present them.
That's true...
Able to move objects and lifeforms, so it's probably not another mentality based power like authority or memory, it would be weird to triple up on that.
Maybe Fate/Destiny vs Freedom?
I like the idea behind this, but I feel motion/inertia is pretty much subsumed conceptually by authority
EDIT: Maybe Change vs Stasis is a better way of putting it?
DrakoGhoul
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I honestly don't have a good replacement for 9th and 10th. While Cause and Effect makes a lot of sense for me, even I'm not confident in that. I think I went too hard on Life, Death, Creation and Destruction speculation that I didn't expect WW to say fuck that, I'm combining them together instead. Pretty much removing Life and Death from the speculation altogether.
I will say it's more exciting this way though. Like, I guessed the 12th accurately and pretty much the 11th as well. I just didn't put the 11th in the correct order. Now, it's a complete mystery and has me even more interested to find out what it could be from the clues in the future.
I will say it's more exciting this way though. Like, I guessed the 12th accurately and pretty much the 11th as well. I just didn't put the 11th in the correct order. Now, it's a complete mystery and has me even more interested to find out what it could be from the clues in the future.
At this point, I'm just looking up common dualities. I figure whatever the real answer is, it's not gonna be something super radical. Like we've got pretty standard dualities here with light and dark, creation and destruction, etc. So I'm not expecting something totally out there like Concepts vs Actualization or something. Cause and Effect makes the most sense not because I think it's a good fit, but because it's a very popular duality that wouldn't seem out of place on the list.
Even though it might sound a little implausible, I was thinking about the possibility that "Integrity" was the origin shared by the Third and Fourth. Integrity as in being "whole," "undivided," and "complete.". "What You Think" and "What You Do" are integrated. "Integrity" and "Chaos" would be diametrically opposed.
In that one Dead End, isn't "completion" what the Arbiter is searching for?
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DrakoGhoul
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That was mostly because he was incomplete overall. In other words, he wasn't reborn as a full Arbiter/Origin. It's speculation currently but we think he was looking for Ella for the other part to complete his ascension. However, he was killed by Deus before he could accomplish it.
On the "he was looking for Ella" aspect, I may differ with you, but as you pointed out, that's just speculation.
Anyway, that Dead End and the one where the Seventh shows up are my favorites.
While your entire post was good and something I´ve pondered myself I zeroed in on the question of the third/fourth specifically. It seems to me that while the rest of the apostles seem have names or portfolios that has concepts that are fairly broad the 3rd/4th do not really. To me they almost seem "lame" in comparison. So I wonder if their names are really only a way to make humans make sense and simplify a much broader concept. After all monsterkind and their "nobility" if you will do not use these names as far as I can tell. Its always "the third/fourth" when they are adressed.
To start with the third its portfolio is very likely some sort of variant of matter and how to change it from one form to the other. On most creatures the easiest way to start out with the ability is to change around yourself. It resists the least and you have an instinctive knowledge on your own matter and status. To understand things well enough that you can change something that isnt you requires much more practise and power that comes in later through evolutions and training. Hence why the trait and the apostle is referred to as "the Body". Its simply the most visible and early way to understand it. And while laws of physics are more of a loose recommendation in later evolutions I´m thinking that the "Law of Mass" applies early on so its easier to use your own body to make changes within a relatively close span of its size. An early example of this could be when the MC tried to make himself bigger and he failed when going to far out of his usualy size.
The fourth is a more tricky thing but to me I reckon that what it represents is not so much memories but rather "matter state" or something like that. (using that word to respresent the structure and form/energy matter is at a specific point in time) I´m no physicist so my speculation could be very off here but it seems to me that memory is simply a frozen earlier timeline matterstate that gets "stored" in some way that we recognize as memories. To me this sort of tracks in the way that early on we could only read the matterstate of present time organic creatures. Trying something even inorganic was much harder and could only be done in very small amounts even after much effort. And earler matterstates contained in memories required evolutions to even start being experimented with, they could be read to a certain extent but not really acted on. Even the reading the matterstate seems to be improved as well with 1st evolution it required we absorb Kennys brain to get some sort of understanding while lately a few drops of blood or other matter is enough. In 5th evolution perhaps a single molecule is enough. The question is how far does the rabbithole go with this understanding. Could you at some future powerlevel turn people or other matter into a previous matterstate? Not perhaps playing with the timeline like some superhumans but simply go "Yeah the matter that makes up your body just turned into when it was sludge at the bottom of the sea in the cambrian era". And combine it with the third having a "yeah Imma go turn into this neutron star 3 feet away from you. Have fun with that gravity".
Anyway thats my rambling speculation.