OnlineRando

Member
Aug 4, 2021
173
363
You misunderstand what I'm trying to say so much, you argue I'm wrong with points that actually support me.

The axiom of this discussion is that authority is authority et al..

The first argument is that Authority is what's left if you cut all implicit authority out of authority et al..

The second part is that Authority only works where there is space for explicit authority and that is where implicit authority is weak enough.

It's also why I fundamentally believe that Jake, if he mastered his his powers and reached his fifth evolution, could use his authority to control the world, even though the scales are stacked against him.
And the "axiom" of what I said is that according to what we know right now, it would make little sense for that to be correct.

Authority as you describe it would be omnipotence that affects everything relative to or weaker than him. Omnipotence would naturally be the power of god. The original omnipotent god was split into two different gods, who then each split into six other gods.

Authority is one of these gods, and so such a great amount of influence over the domains of what amount to its equals in the other arbiters would make little sense.

Now, if by "control the world" you mean in the sense of controlling the people within it, then I'd completely agree. However, that should be the extent of Authority as we know it. Controlling people and their actions.
 

DannyLucifer

Member
Jul 5, 2018
305
356
How the fuck did Ella cause Mia?

Jake fucked up by getting caught by Mia
Then he fucked up by panicking.
Then he fucked up by using his power on mia
Then he fucked up by botching his use of powers mia due to his panic.
Then he evolved while using his powers on mia
Then he fucked up by losing control over his evolution like a chump.

There is no possible universe in which you can forsee such a chain of fuckups without explicitly having future sight super power.

Also, "I will heal her if you do X" is not hostage.
You are not just magically entitled to someone coming over and healing you.
This is why we pay doctors.
So you are telling me Ella did NOT turn into MC to trick and drive apart Jake and MC?
She didn't tell Jake to Kill MC?
She didn't tell Jake to turn Deryll into her slave?
She doesn't run an orphanage where she uses Kids for HER goal, also probably didn't brainwash them?
She also didnt let loose an uncontrollable monster that cause the death of 50 people?
She also propably didnt trick hundreds of people to take the a pill that most of the time would kill them or turn them into a monster?

After all this if you still think Ella isn't a c*nt, i dont know what to tell you bro
 

Hobocop Harrier du bois

Formerly 'Harrier Du Bois'
Feb 6, 2023
298
1,628
Say, does the dev use AI for some of his art? Because some of the shading in the new arts give off that AI generated vibe. Maybe it's just me.
 

harem.king

Engaged Member
Aug 16, 2023
3,997
6,972
So you are telling me Ella did NOT turn into MC to trick and drive apart Jake and MC?
She didn't tell Jake to Kill MC?
She didn't tell Jake to turn Deryll into her slave?
She doesn't run an orphanage where she uses Kids for HER goal, also probably didn't brainwash them?
She also didnt let loose an uncontrollable monster that cause the death of 50 people?
She also propably didnt trick hundreds of people to take the a pill that most of the time would kill them or turn them into a monster?
What does that have to do with what Jake did to Mia?

If you pay a guy to drive to the store and buy a bottle of milk, and he runs over someone with his car, you are not a murderer. Because it isn't your fault he ran over someone with his car.

Ella is only guilty of things she actually did, or directly ordered, at most you include things a reasonable person could deduce would follow from her orders.
Which means Ella is responsible for ordering Jake to go after MC and Darryl. But not responsible for what Jake did to Mia.
After all this if you still think Ella isn't a c*nt, i dont know what to tell you bro
You are engaging in tribalism. In your mind there are only 2 sides.
Side/Tribe A: Ella is Satan
Side/Tribe B: Ella is Saint

You saw me disagreeing with a point made by someone in Side A (they claimed that Ella is responsible for what Jake did to Mia).

In a fit of tribalism you decided that by daring to disagree of someone from your Tribe, it means I am a member of the only other Tribe in existence, Side B and thus are now straw-manning me by falsely attributing a bunch of claims to me that I did not make but allegedly other members of my Tribe did.
Stop doing that please. There are more than just 2 extreme sides to an issue and not everyone perfectly aligns with whatever "side" you think they belong to. Address what I actually said, not something others have said.

As for what Ella is...
She isn't out there killing people for fun
She is putting people in danger to prepare humanity for survival against what seems to be certain extinction.
Rather than her being "Evil". She is more of a "Renegade".
There are shades of Grey here
 
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Dipasimaan

Active Member
Feb 22, 2019
736
6,608
thats pretty fucking cool do all twin apostles have an arbiter that they might've originated from?
Most absolutely yes, I don't know if you finished the current update but there is an arc in where the MC navigates along 12 paths that are connected to the Apostles and when we "find" one then we can see their presentations and deduct by that what the name of their Arbiter is
 

Nexum768

Member
Oct 9, 2023
186
353
Most absolutely yes, I don't know if you finished the current update but there is an arc in where the MC navigates along 12 paths that are connected to the Apostles and when we "find" one then we can see their presentations and deduct by that what the name of their Arbiter is
I did finish the current update thought it was just talking about the apostles
 

Nexum768

Member
Oct 9, 2023
186
353
Also I think its when MC gets his 3rd evolution the eye ask if he can be reborn? if this eye is an arbiter wtf could kill him? (Besides other arbiters I guess)
 

TheShelly

Member
Dec 20, 2020
188
2,434
Also I think its when MC gets his 3rd evolution the eye ask if he can be reborn? if this eye is an arbiter wtf could kill him? (Besides other arbiters I guess)
Well during the Dead End you get from allowing the Eye to be reborn the Eye itself is incomplete, most likely due to MC's memory powers being unrefined at that point in time. Deus was able to kill the Eye by essentially going back in time and killing the MC before the Eye took over. Bernhardt was able to kill the Eye with his Planck Pressure attack, which essentially hit the Eye with the attractive force of an entire universe.
 
Sep 12, 2021
286
547
What does that have to do with what Jake did to Mia?

If you pay a guy to drive to the store and buy a bottle of milk, and he runs over someone with his car, you are not a murderer. Because it isn't your fault he ran over someone with his car.

Ella is only guilty of things she actually did, or directly ordered, at most you include things a reasonable person could deduce would follow from her orders.
Which means Ella is responsible for ordering Jake to go after MC and Darryl. But not responsible for what Jake did to Mia.

You are engaging in tribalism. In your mind there are only 2 sides.
Side/Tribe A: Ella is Satan
Side/Tribe B: Ella is Saint

You saw me disagreeing with a point made by someone in Side A (they claimed that Ella is responsible for what Jake did to Mia).

In a fit of tribalism you decided that by daring to disagree of someone from your Tribe, it means I am a member of the only other Tribe in existence, Side B and thus are now straw-manning me by falsely attributing a bunch of claims to me that I did not make but allegedly other members of my Tribe did.
Stop doing that please. There are more than just 2 extreme sides to an issue and not everyone perfectly aligns with whatever "side" you think they belong to. Address what I actually said, not something others have said.

As for what Ella is...
She isn't out there killing people for fun
She is putting people in danger to prepare humanity for survival against what seems to be certain extinction.
Rather than her being "Evil". She is more of a "Renegade".
There are shades of Grey here
Yeah, not really Ella's to blame for Mia, decision to brainfuck her was Jake's one and only, and going with "she led to the situation in the first place, so she's to blame" opens a can of worms that leads to immensely stupid claims, like blaming first man/woman on earth for all the shit that happened.

Neither it's a story for preschoolers, Ella is not a cartoonishly evil villain that does what she does becasue "I'm evil_TM", like everyone else in the story she is a complex character that has angles to it. But about that falsely accusing someone over something they did not claim - we do not know if she, to quote, prepares humanity for survival against annihilation. It might be the case, but we have no confirmation of this - Ella saying that, without anything else in game to really support it, is no proof. She is a known liar, outright stating things that are not true and easily debunked in 10 minutes of play. For all we know her plan might just be amass support of superhumans she made/swayed to her side, bring/hasten the apocalypse and rule as a king of the ashes that are left. Abused children are often, when they grow up, trying to build their self-worth on status and influence just to feel better for the pain they experienced, or use it to have the same leverage to abuse others without consequences, as seen from the perspective of their younger selves. Maybe, I do not know. Maybe she wants to bring the Apostles at person, not through avatars, to be rewarded with some turbo power boost? Maybe, it's all speculation.

But that evil/renegade and not killing for fun part? Not really true. I mean, maybe not for just fun, but she murders a hobo guy for no good reason but being mildly pissed at him. And showing off what she can do to MC, which might actually be just for fun. I don't know how many innocent lives must be taken directly, or make choices that directly lead to deaths while knowing that, for one to be considered evil, but I'd assume it's above zero. Again, she's not a one-dimensional brick labeled "evil" and that's it, the are grays here, but this is just a part of her. Like the twin slurping of Eisheth - she can, she likes the taste, so she kills.
 
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Ddlc

Member
Jun 22, 2017
414
1,644
Also I think its when MC gets his 3rd evolution the eye ask if he can be reborn? if this eye is an arbiter wtf could kill him? (Besides other arbiters I guess)
On the two occasions the eye takes control (the one during 3rd evolution and the other during the Cole fight) it mentions how it's still incomplete, so I assume it was far from it's full power.
 

Nexum768

Member
Oct 9, 2023
186
353
Well during the Dead End you get from allowing the Eye to be reborn the Eye itself is incomplete, most likely due to MC's memory powers being unrefined at that point in time. Deus was able to kill the Eye by essentially going back in time and killing the MC before the Eye took over. Bernhardt was able to kill the Eye with his Planck Pressure attack, which essentially hit the Eye with the attractive force of an entire universe.
What the actual fuck is power scaling in this game
 
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