I'ma be honest in our fight with him. I thought he had much more than twice our power. It felt like 3 or 4 times. Power is superior. I've discussed that in decent length before playing last update in my now removed Theories post(removed due to so called spam). The update seems to make that even more perfectly clear. To be succinct on my views of the Power vs Skill debate, I will say Skill is what's developed to compensate for a lack of general power. The powerful do not train. They simply are. Only the weak train to beat the naturally powerful. If one has to train , it's because they lack natural power. God doesn't need to train because their all powerful. Power>Skill. Ella's discussions with MC while training him in Monster World and Alice's fight with Daoine seem to support this view. Ella literally states Skill is for humans. Focus on being so powerful and varied your opponents can't keep up with you.
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If you don't know how to effectively wield it, that superiority is wasted.
Something being removed for spam is pretty rare around here. I don't just mean this thread, I mean the forum as a whole.
Must've done something "spammy" for a moderator to actually agree with a spam report.
No.
Skill makes power more "powerful", through the effective and efficient use of it.
They did train.
They trained to become more powerful, to get to the point where they were powerful enough. Power alone wouldn't and couldn't get them there.
Only a fool says things so foolish... Yes, you're a fool for saying this.
Take two people of equal power, and the victor will be the one who trained in the use of their power.
They're not their, and you don't understand what "all powerful" actually means.
Repeating something wrong doesn't make it correct.
No they don't.
Powerful and varied... You're literally arguing against your own stance, and you don't even realise it.
Kookiezie
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Ddlc
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And yet we have seen multiple times weaker fighters getting stronger ones with skill, we even saw humans beating monsters with skill. If skill is capable of leading the weaker to victory against the powerful isn't this true power ?
You get respect from Val by beating him despite being weaker, he says he wouldn't respect Alexis if she beat him because she was stronger.
If power is what decides fights and skill can make people beat enemies with double their power, then it's clear what is the real deciding factor.
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I think you may be misinterpreting my arguments about Power vs Skill. I was proposing a hypothetical that an sole all-powerful creator god wouldn't train and would never need to. They simply are powerful and their will is made manifest. Perhaps, I wasn't being clear enough or as clear as I should've been while discussing something as broad a concept as God. I apologize.
It was a single post with above 10k word count. I was under the belief that spam was repetitive. I posted it once. If there's a word count limit on a post, shouldn't the post be kept from being posted in the first place? Seems like it would make moderation simpler if that was the case. Now, I don't disagree with the post being removed. I disagree with allowing it to be posted and then removing it and labeling it "spam" when it was only posted once. Feels like it should be labeled something else perhaps, I'm wrong.
Statements you've made that I completely agree with:
If you don't know how to effectively wield it(Power), that superiority is wasted. (Although, here it actually seems like you are agreeing with me that Power is superior to Skill)
Skill makes power more "powerful", through the effective and efficient use of it.(Agreed, but a sole, omnipotent creator deity has no competition and thus no reason to develop Skill.)
Take two people of equal power, and the victor will be the one who trained in the use of their power.(Agreed with totally.)
Things I Disagree With
Only the weak train to beat the naturally powerful(My Quote). Only a fool says things so foolish... Yes, you're a fool for saying this.
God doesn't train. They simply are. Anyone who trains lacks omnipotence and thus, in comparison to a sole omnipotent Creator God is weak.
Never said repeating something wrong makes it correct. Unneeded and uncalled for aggression.
You say Ella's discussions while training MC and Alice's fight with Daoine does not support the view that Power is superior to Skill. I disagree. Alice beat Danu with MC trickery and a hidden Xanthe item. The fight was perhaps the VN's biggest example of an insurmountable power difference not being able to be overcome with skill. Without MC and Xanthe help, Alice would've died unless another similarly powerful being interfered.
I do realize how it sounds, but how it sounds and how it is isn't precisely the same thing. Ella's argument to be powerful and varied is not really stating Skill is superior to Power unless making common sense tactical decisions is deemed as being Skilled. I can't argue or counter-argue when common sense is or isn't skill. You tell me if a Boxer knowing not to spam jabs is a skilled decision or common sense one. I don't know or care.
When you say that Power isn't superior to Skill in the ultimate sense, what it seems you're saying is that a all powerful deity can be defeated by a highly skilled mortal like Michael if they train hard enough and prepare long enough. I disagree with that sentiment. No amount of training or preparation can stop you from being erased from existence.
I actually agree with your point of view that Skill is important. It is for mortals. But when we are discussing entities such as Apostles or Arbiters, it isn't Skill, by its lonesome, from a lesser being that will allow them to win. It's important even for the Chosen or the BIg HERO Three. But none of the Chosen or the Big Three or anyone without similar power is touching the Apostles or the Arbiters. The Apostles or Arbiters made manifest in the material plane would one hit kill everyone! The most skilled cockroach isn't beating a human in a duel to the death, period.
That's why MC having the Eye is so important. He quite literally would have no justifiable means to impose his will on reality on a macro scale without it. He's too far behind in Power and Skill and will have to rely on his memory abilities to garner the Skill(notably Skill derived from Power) and the Eye's Power(much more important) to make up for a Skill and Power gap that ranges from years to decades to centuries to millenia to eons.
I'm basically talking end game shit, not current shit. Skill is still important against most foes that the MC will cross paths with in the near future, but MC won't be beating Indra or Full Powered Valrav'n with Skill, nor will he beating any potential Apostles or Arbiters or Extraterrestrials Gods with it.
With this said, thank you for your criticism. It allowed me to further develop my thoughts on that the Power vs Skill Issue and showed me I need to work on being more clear in my statements.
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The deciding factor of fights varies depend on variables associated with the fight. A lot of people would state that the biggest deciding factor of the MC vs Cole Fight was Cole's lack of Skill. I disagree. I would call what many would describe as Skill as Cole just being plain ole stupid. I would blame his stupidity and pride over his skill. In fact, I would rate things in that order!.
He should've got in close and spammed close range disintegration on MC until he died. Stuck to his strengths.He shouldn't have used that dagger of his at all. It took up too much energy. If sticking to your strengths don't work, retreat or find backup. He had ample opportunities to retreat or seek help while getting jumped and refused to. Yes, Cole was unskilled, but him losing was more due to him being a arrogant stupid fuck.
No, your understanding of "All Powerful" doesn't work. In fact it also contradicts your stance.
Doesn't train, because has all the necessary knowledge and skill required to wield their unlimited power... They literally have all the skill to go along with all the power.
Don't make assumptions just yet...
This is the point where I don't need to go any further, because you agree with the stance that power needs the skill with which to wield it.
In other words, Power needs skill and therefore is not superior.
An all-powerful being needs nothing, but its power. If a being has a need, it isn't all powerful. It may or may not have skill, but it doesn't need it. Humans should develop both with more time spent on Skill. Spawn should develop both with more time spent on Power. The stronger the entity in question, the more Power a lesser entity needs to defeat it. No Skill is allowing non spawn Micheal at his peak to beat a Apostle or Arbiter period.
Power is superior to Skill. It's better to having one hit killing power and the speed to use it than any amount of martial training!
Friendly reminder that two humans killed a monster with skill alone (and one of them was ambushed by his monster).
The real threat are those that yield both
Of course, but I've recently been arguing that the closer an opposing force nears omnipotence, Skill takes a backseat to Power in order to deal with them.
Ddlc
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What you describe as Cole being stupid is part of what is described as "skill" in-game. As Michael tells Mc, the more you find yourself in life or death situations, the better your brain adapts to work under stress, Cole clearly lacks this since his abilities often worked as an one shot, one kill. While Mc had to recover from the brink of death multiple times and still find a way to victory, Cole relied on his power to end fights immediately.
As for his way of fighting being stupid, at first, yes his arrogance definitly played a major part. But that fight was quite long, and he learned Heat Zone only a long way into it. When he first got Heat Zone he did spam it, but he probably realised that it demanded a lot of energy, and it was not getting him the kills as easily as he expected. Mc escaped Heat Zone multiple times, he even had to threathen to approach Deryl to force Mc to get closer.
Against an enemy with high mobility, who can regenerate, repeatedly using an expensive power that fails to end the fight is a bad strategy, in what could very well become a battle of attrition.
You still don't get it... Being "All Powerful" includes being all knowing, so that automtically includes all the relevant skill and experience. The very concept of an all powerful being/entity or just plain ol' God, is circular in that regard, and why it's the worst possible example to try and use to prove your argument.
Fine, I've made a oversight with the use of that word then. I get it now, I'll change my example then.
Who's in a superior position to win in a duel? The most skilled human mortal or Dr.Manhattan as originally written by Alan Moore in his comics, "Watchmen" ?
I believe Ozymandias vs Dr. Manhattan was a good example of Power vs Skill. Dr.Manhattan could've just disintregrated him along with his entire mansion when he ran, or just teleported the guy into the Sun on some Nico shit.
I was discussing Skill and Powers as terms generally. Not the game terms. Sorry for the miscommunication. Level 3 Cole's stupid for fighting MC, period. He knew of his abilities long before they actually fought. He's seen what similar powered Ella is capable of. It was his arrogance fueled stupidity that got him to fight someone he had a bad power match up with. Level 4 Cole was under trance, and probably made more stupid. Smart thing would've been to fly away from MC once he saw just how regenerative he was, after learning to fly, but his arrogance and stupidity kept him from doing so.
His difficulties jumping Valrav'n with his compatriots should've taught him that being arrogant and doing things solo can get you killed!
I don't think his new Sir Tanos is gonna tolerate much excuses so probably the former. Cole's gonna make much progress. Mark my words. Tanos inspires progress look at Lady Ella.
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Cole's gonna end up being lab rat or a lab rat/bodyguard. His Destructive potential is too high for someone as pragmatic as Tanos is to not be utilized. Cole's gonna be a strong ass level 4 the next time we see him.
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The difference is that the development of Cole's powers caused him immense suffering in comparison to Briar(healer) or Zara(buffer/debuffer). Xanthe mentions that Cole must bear with the pain in order to survive or he will perish. He hates both of the Xanthe's for their willingness to sacrifice others for their pursuit of knowlege. His powers being given to him at such a young age has caused undue stress on his body.
The only kids we've seen experimented on so far that's likely to have also suffer immense pain is Ella and she also cannot stand Tanos. He probably tested Ella's regeneration and pain tolerance to the utmost extreme due to her powers. She's likely suffered more than Cole. Cole's obsessed with Ella and probably hates whoever she hates and whoever has harmed her! I would bet that no Superhuman has suffered more immense pain for extended periods of time than Ella! Not Cole, or even Nyx. She probably learned from Tanos that self damage is a great way to improve her regeneration and shapeshifting techniques as a training method. MC should probably test it in a controlled environment with Deryl like Tanos surely has with Ella.
Can't believe I missed this reference when I first read this post. Good humor right there!
Yeah. I don't think everyone appreciates just how superior Ella is to MC as a shapeshifter. Her lessons are going to make MC a nightmare for many to deal with.
SquallofNight
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Just to help a little: you can stack multiple responses into one. This way you don't clutter (read "spam") the thread with a bunch of replies; that's why I think they approved banning some of your posts here. Because you just made 5-6 posts in a row, and that can be viewed as spamming the thread. Hope it helps.