VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.99999b] [WeirdWorld]

[DecadentDesires]

And yet we have seen multiple times weaker fighters getting stronger ones with skill, we even saw humans beating monsters with skill. If skill is capable of leading the weaker to victory against the powerful isn't this true power ?
You get respect from Val by beating him despite being weaker, he says he wouldn't respect Alexis if she beat him because she was stronger.
If power is what decides fights and skill can make people beat enemies with double their power, then it's clear what is the real deciding factor.

The deciding factor of fights varies depend on variables associated with the fight. A lot of people would state that the biggest deciding factor of the MC vs Cole Fight was Cole's lack of Skill. I disagree. I would call what many would describe as Skill as Cole just being plain ole stupid. I would blame his stupidity and pride over his skill. In fact, I would rate things in that order!.

He should've got in close and spammed close range disintegration on MC until he died. Stuck to his strengths.He shouldn't have used that dagger of his at all. It took up too much energy. If sticking to your strengths don't work, retreat or find backup. He had ample opportunities to retreat or seek help while getting jumped and refused to. Yes, Cole was unskilled, but him losing was more due to him being a arrogant stupid fuck.

 

[Snugglepuff]

I think you may be misinterpreting my arguments about Power vs Skill. I was proposing a hypothetical that an sole all-powerful creator god wouldn't train and would never need to. They simply are powerful and their will is made manifest. Perhaps, I wasn't being clear enough or as clear as I should've been while discussing something as broad a concept as God. I apologize.

No, your understanding of "All Powerful" doesn't work. In fact it also contradicts your stance.

Doesn't train, because has all the necessary knowledge and skill required to wield their unlimited power... They literally have all the skill to go along with all the power.

Statements you've made that I completely agree with:

If you don't know how to effectively wield it(Power), that superiority is wasted. (Although, here it actually seems like you are agreeing with me that Power is superior to Skill)

Don't make assumptions just yet...

Skill makes power more "powerful", through the effective and efficient use of it.(Agreed, but a sole, omnipotent creator deity has no competition and thus no reason to develop Skill.)

This is the point where I don't need to go any further, because you agree with the stance that power needs the skill with which to wield it.
In other words, Power needs skill and therefore is not superior.

 

[DecadentDesires]

No, your understanding of "All Powerful" doesn't work. In fact it also contradicts your stance.

Doesn't train, because has all the necessary knowledge and skill required to wield their unlimited power... They literally have all the skill to go along with all the power.



Don't make assumptions just yet...



This is the point where I don't need to go any further, because you agree with the stance that power needs the skill with which to wield it.
In other words, Power needs skill and therefore is not superior.

An all-powerful being needs nothing, but its power. If a being has a need, it isn't all powerful. It may or may not have skill, but it doesn't need it. Humans should develop both with more time spent on Skill. Spawn should develop both with more time spent on Power. The stronger the entity in question, the more Power a lesser entity needs to defeat it. No Skill is allowing non spawn Micheal at his peak to beat a Apostle or Arbiter period.


Power is superior to Skill. It's better to having one hit killing power and the speed to use it than any amount of martial training!

 

[Tahxeol]

I'ma be honest in our fight with him. I thought he had much more than twice our power. It felt like 3 or 4 times. Power is superior. I've discussed that in decent length before playing last update in my now removed Theories post(removed due to so called spam). The update seems to make that even more perfectly clear. To be succinct on my views of the Power vs Skill debate, I will say Skill is what's developed to compensate for a lack of general power. The powerful do not train. They simply are. Only the weak train to beat the naturally powerful. If one has to train , it's because they lack natural power. God doesn't need to train because their all powerful. Power>Skill. Ella's discussions with MC while training him in Monster World and Alice's fight with Daoine seem to support this view. Ella literally states Skill is for humans. Focus on being so powerful and varied your opponents can't keep up with you.

Friendly reminder that two humans killed a monster with skill alone (and one of them was ambushed by his monster).
The real threat are those that yield both

 

[DecadentDesires]

Friendly reminder that two humans killed a monster with skill alone (and one of them was ambushed by his monster).
The real threat are those that yield both

Of course, but I've recently been arguing that the closer an opposing force nears omnipotence, Skill takes a backseat to Power in order to deal with them.

 

[Ddlc]

The deciding factor of fights varies depend on variables associated with the fight. A lot of people would state that the biggest deciding factor of the MC vs Cole Fight was Cole's lack of Skill. I disagree. I would call what many would describe as Skill as Cole just being plain ole stupid. I would blame his stupidity and pride over his skill. In fact, I would rate things in that order!.

He should've got in close and spammed close range disintegration on MC until he died. Stuck to his strengths.He shouldn't have used that dagger of his at all. It took up too much energy. If sticking to your strengths don't work, retreat or find backup. He had ample opportunities to retreat or seek help while getting jumped and refused to. Yes, Cole was unskilled, but him losing was more due to him being a arrogant stupid fuck.

What you describe as Cole being stupid is part of what is described as "skill" in-game. As Michael tells Mc, the more you find yourself in life or death situations, the better your brain adapts to work under stress, Cole clearly lacks this since his abilities often worked as an one shot, one kill. While Mc had to recover from the brink of death multiple times and still find a way to victory, Cole relied on his power to end fights immediately.
As for his way of fighting being stupid, at first, yes his arrogance definitly played a major part. But that fight was quite long, and he learned Heat Zone only a long way into it. When he first got Heat Zone he did spam it, but he probably realised that it demanded a lot of energy, and it was not getting him the kills as easily as he expected. Mc escaped Heat Zone multiple times, he even had to threathen to approach Deryl to force Mc to get closer.
Against an enemy with high mobility, who can regenerate, repeatedly using an expensive power that fails to end the fight is a bad strategy, in what could very well become a battle of attrition.

 

[Snugglepuff]

An all-powerful being needs nothing, but its power.

You still don't get it... Being "All Powerful" includes being all knowing, so that automtically includes all the relevant skill and experience. The very concept of an all powerful being/entity or just plain ol' God, is circular in that regard, and why it's the worst possible example to try and use to prove your argument.

 

[DecadentDesires]

You still don't get it... Being "All Powerful" includes being all knowing, so that automtically includes all the relevant skill and experience. The very concept of an all powerful being/entity or just plain ol' God, is circular in that regard, and why it's the worst possible example to try and use to prove your argument.

Fine, I've made a oversight with the use of that word then. I get it now, I'll change my example then.

Who's in a superior position to win in a duel? The most skilled human mortal or Dr.Manhattan as originally written by Alan Moore in his comics, "Watchmen" ?

I believe Ozymandias vs Dr. Manhattan was a good example of Power vs Skill. Dr.Manhattan could've just disintregrated him along with his entire mansion when he ran, or just teleported the guy into the Sun on some Nico shit.

 

[DecadentDesires]

What you describe as Cole being stupid is part of what is described as "skill" in-game. As Michael tells Mc, the more you find yourself in life or death situations, the better your brain adapts to work under stress, Cole clearly lacks this since his abilities often worked as an one shot, one kill. While Mc had to recover from the brink of death multiple times and still find a way to victory, Cole relied on his power to end fights immediately.
As for his way of fighting being stupid, at first, yes his arrogance definitly played a major part. But that fight was quite long, and he learned Heat Zone only a long way into it. When he first got Heat Zone he did spam it, but he probably realised that it demanded a lot of energy, and it was not getting him the kills as easily as he expected. Mc escaped Heat Zone multiple times, he even had to threathen to approach Deryl to force Mc to get closer.
Against an enemy with high mobility, who can regenerate, repeatedly using an expensive power that fails to end the fight is a bad strategy, in what could very well become a battle of attrition.

I was discussing Skill and Powers as terms generally. Not the game terms. Sorry for the miscommunication. Level 3 Cole's stupid for fighting MC, period. He knew of his abilities long before they actually fought. He's seen what similar powered Ella is capable of. It was his arrogance fueled stupidity that got him to fight someone he had a bad power match up with. Level 4 Cole was under trance, and probably made more stupid. Smart thing would've been to fly away from MC once he saw just how regenerative he was, after learning to fly, but his arrogance and stupidity kept him from doing so.

His difficulties jumping Valrav'n with his compatriots should've taught him that being arrogant and doing things solo can get you killed!

 

[DecadentDesires]

Reminds me of Frieza from DBZ. He was just naturally absurdly strong, so he'd never once trained in his life. When he finally actually tried training in DBS, he become exponentially more dangerous. I imagine once Cole heals (if he hasn't already, how long has the gang been in the monster world exactly?) then he'll probably put some serious effort into improving himself after being defeated by someone he sees as lesser. Either that or he'll be a petulant child and make up a thousand excuses.

I don't think his new Sir Tanos is gonna tolerate much excuses so probably the former. Cole's gonna make much progress. Mark my words. Tanos inspires progress look at Lady Ella.

 

[DecadentDesires]

That's assuming Cole walks away from Tanos' surgery table (Read: cutting board) sane and in one piece. Considering Cole was the only one among the siblings to know Tanos' true nature and the fact that Cole had already crossed Tanos, I highly doubt it. Tanos had already contemplated bringing Cole in line, and he was given free access to do it in the worst possible way. And to think, Cole's siblings happily delivered him to Tanos for "treatment". Very much karma for being an ass and arrogantly thinking he could take on anybody on his own.

Cole's gonna end up being lab rat or a lab rat/bodyguard. His Destructive potential is too high for someone as pragmatic as Tanos is to not be utilized. Cole's gonna be a strong ass level 4 the next time we see him.

 

[DecadentDesires]

I still don't understand the reason of the drastically different attitudes to Tanos between Cole's and other Ella's kids given they more or less went through the same thing.

The difference is that the development of Cole's powers caused him immense suffering in comparison to Briar(healer) or Zara(buffer/debuffer). Xanthe mentions that Cole must bear with the pain in order to survive or he will perish. He hates both of the Xanthe's for their willingness to sacrifice others for their pursuit of knowlege. His powers being given to him at such a young age has caused undue stress on his body.

The only kids we've seen experimented on so far that's likely to have also suffer immense pain is Ella and she also cannot stand Tanos. He probably tested Ella's regeneration and pain tolerance to the utmost extreme due to her powers. She's likely suffered more than Cole. Cole's obsessed with Ella and probably hates whoever she hates and whoever has harmed her! I would bet that no Superhuman has suffered more immense pain for extended periods of time than Ella! Not Cole, or even Nyx. She probably learned from Tanos that self damage is a great way to improve her regeneration and shapeshifting techniques as a training method. MC should probably test it in a controlled environment with Deryl like Tanos surely has with Ella.

 

[DecadentDesires]

Like... it would be fucking hilarious if after an entire game of worrying about it, he just uses Gomu Gomu No Super Mega Death Spear of Doom and whacks Met across the country

Can't believe I missed this reference when I first read this post. Good humor right there!

 

[DecadentDesires]

There is also the huge difference that Ella had to build everything up from the ground and learn while mc just copied.

Yeah. I don't think everyone appreciates just how superior Ella is to MC as a shapeshifter. Her lessons are going to make MC a nightmare for many to deal with.

 

[SquallofNight]

Fine, I've made a oversight with the use of that word then. I get it now, I'll change my example then.

Who's in a superior position to win in a duel? The most skilled human mortal or Dr.Manhattan as originally written by Alan Moore in his comics, "Watchmen" ?

I believe Ozymandias vs Dr. Manhattan was a good example of Power vs Skill. Dr.Manhattan could've just disintregrated him along with his entire mansion when he ran, or just teleported the guy into the Sun on some Nico shit.

I was discussing Skill and Powers as terms generally. Not the game terms. Sorry for the miscommunication. Level 3 Cole's stupid for fighting MC, period. He knew of his abilities long before they actually fought. He's seen what similar powered Ella is capable of. It was his arrogance fueled stupidity that got him to fight someone he had a bad power match up with. Level 4 Cole was under trance, and probably made more stupid. Smart thing would've been to fly away from MC once he saw just how regenerative he was, after learning to fly, but his arrogance and stupidity kept him from doing so.

His difficulties jumping Valrav'n with his compatriots should've taught him that being arrogant and doing things solo can get you killed!

Cole's gonna end up being lab rat or a lab rat/bodyguard. His Destructive potential is too high for someone as pragmatic as Tanos is to not be utilized. Cole's gonna be a strong ass level 4 the next time we see him.

Can't believe I missed this reference when I first read this post. Good humor right there!

Just to help a little: you can stack multiple responses into one. This way you don't clutter (read "spam") the thread with a bunch of replies; that's why I think they approved banning some of your posts here. Because you just made 5-6 posts in a row, and that can be viewed as spamming the thread. Hope it helps.

 

[Tahxeol]

Of course, but I've recently been arguing that the closer an opposing force nears omnipotence, Skill takes a backseat to Power in order to deal with them.

The power level in it is lower than Superhuman, but I believe the comparison with Darwin Games still works.
In it, Greed (the BBEGs) has multiple lieutenants, two of which are Emulator and Witch.

Spoiler: Emulator

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Spoiler: Witch

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I would also like to add a strategy that Sylla almost used that tend to be neglected to win in the long term: the Joestar techique

Edit: Just checked, a better translation had their powers translated as (The universal function, Laplace) and (Destiny observation, Laplace), so it is inded the same power.

 

[DecadentDesires]

Just to help a little: you can stack multiple responses into one. This way you don't clutter (read "spam") the thread with a bunch of replies; that's why I think they approved banning some of your posts here. Because you just made 5-6 posts in a row, and that can be viewed as spamming the thread. Hope it helps.

Thanks. But actually, I didn't get reported for that actually. I got reported for posting a 10k word count post at once, showing all of my different theories. In fact, let's not give anyone any ideas, lmao.

 

[obibobi]

I would bet that no Superhuman has suffered more immense pain for extended periods of time than Ella! Not Cole, or even Nyx.

There is no basis for this, but either way, it really shouldn't matter, your robbing yourself of some of the stories enjoyment by making it a measuring contest, the character suffered and that's part of what shaped them, you don't need to measure it against another characters.

There's a joke where Michael tells the MC his backstory and the MC's seems mundane in comparison but that is used for humor, it doesn't mean its not important.

 

[DecadentDesires]

There is no basis for this, but either way, it really shouldn't matter, your robbing yourself of some of the stories enjoyment by making it a measuring contest, the character suffered and that's part of what shaped them, you don't need to measure it against another characters.

There's a joke where Michael tells the MC his backstory and the MC's seems mundane in comparison but that is used for humor, it doesn't mean its not important.

Oh, I was just making a observation. I agree. It does the rob the story of some of it's enjoyment. But I can't help that's just how my mind works like some people here who can't help but be peeved by the Weird World's strange monster weights while I can just ignore it entirely and chalk it up to WW is a human and sometimes, humans make mistakes. With that said, Ella's turning, suffering, mentoring and training has probably led to her seemingly being the most power obsessed character shown so far. The character who seems most wronged by those in power is the character who seems most obsessed with it.

It's like she seeks power in order to never be subjected to what she was in her past ever again. It's great character development. Perhaps others have suffered but as goes the old proverb, "Out of sight, out of mind."

 

[Snugglepuff]

Fine, I've made a oversight with the use of that word then. I get it now, I'll change my example then.

Only because you realise that not one example you could possibly give doesn't also have a requirement of needing skill in order to use power.

Who's in a superior position to win in a duel? The most skilled human mortal or Dr.Manhattan as originally written by Alan Moore in his comics, "Watchmen" ?

Dr Manhattan still had to train. He had to learn to wield his power.
The very first thing he learned, and it took him time to do so, was to reassemble his own body... Skill makes power both useful and usable.

I believe Ozymandias vs Dr. Manhattan was a good example of Power vs Skill.

Not in the overly simplistic context you've been attempting to restrict it to, now to the point of a human without any form of superpowers whatsoever going up against the closest thing to a god that Watchmen has to offer.

As for why your previously deleted post might have been deleted for spam, just look at how many posts you've flooded page 1334 with that are all individual replies, instead of multi-quoting.
Too many posts, too close together in time, is tantamount to spamming.