VN Ren'Py The East Block [v0.7.2] [Bobbyboy Productions]

[The Water Bearer]

Why are you so concerned about his patrons and what they do with their own money? It's quite literally none of your business.
Did I say that he should take as long as he wants? No. I said that you have one choice and one choice alone, to support him or not and you clearly never will so stfu about it, noone cares.

Why are you so angry ? Is he your family or maybe lover ? Maybe you are him ? if you can't control your emotions over something like replying to a comment that wasn't even directed at you, then good luck in the real world. Seems quite strange you defending so hard for him to not take responsibility and have a deadline or timeframe for his updates? Enabling him to release the update whenever he sees fit. I actually do care about supporters being screwed over, I guess you don't. They are the ones funding the game and deserve to be treated right. Not left in the lurch and hoping for the best. Having supported a few devs and been left hanging I'd rather not have it happen to others if possible.
You need to get your priorities checked.

Actually, no, he doesn't. Only people who don't understand (or choose to ignore) how Patreon works think that. Of course both dev and Patrons will always want updates in a timely manner, but that's a really subjective thing in the first instance, and not actually a requirement in the second.

Well aware that patreon is donations, but supporters still have an expectancy to receive an update in a timeframe that has usually been done. People saying it's not a requirement just further gives devs the opportunity to screw supporters over. In fact many devs have a timeframe of release on their about page. Those that constantly miss their deadline usually end up deleting that section of their page lol. Terrible attitude from anybody who doesn't think that's important and devs to not make that one of their main objectives. Every dev should work to a deadline, they are being paid to make the game. If a dev has no consequences he has no responsibility.

 

[TonyMurray]

Well aware that patreon is donations, but supporters still have an expectancy to receive an update in a timeframe that has usually been done. People saying it's not a requirement just further gives devs the opportunity to screw supporters over. In fact many devs have a timeframe of release on their about page. Those that constantly miss their deadline usually end up deleting that section of their page lol. Terrible attitude from anybody who doesn't think that's important and devs to not make that one of their main objectives. Every dev should work to a deadline, they are being paid to make the game. If a dev has no consequences he has no responsibility.

No, you've got it wrong. They're not being paid to make the game, you're closer with your opening, that Patreon is donations.

 

[ding00000]

But that doesn’t excuse how poorly I managed expectations. I didn’t communicate clearly or frequently enough, and that’s on me.


Going forward, I won’t be giving estimated release dates unless I’m very close to done. I know people like to have a rough idea, but the best I can do is share progress updates, completed renders, coding milestones, etc. I’ll start doing that in my next dev log, which should drop in a couple of days.

Ok so you acknowledged that you didn't communicate clearly or frequently enough and are trying to take accountability. By communicating less and not giving an estimated release date so people can't hold you accountable.

Imagine this being any other service, we're sorry your food came late. We'll fix this, not by giving you a better estimate or trying to do better next time ,BUT by never telling you when the food will arrive that way it's never late. ??????

 

[Bobbyboy48]

Ok so you acknowledged that you didn't communicate clearly or frequently enough and are trying to take accountability. By communicating less and not giving an estimated release date so people can't hold you accountable.

Imagine this being any other service, we're sorry your food came late. We'll fix this, not by giving you a better estimate or trying to do better next time ,BUT by never telling you when the food will arrive that way it's never late. ??????

Well what would you suggest I do? I can’t foresee delays, technical difficulties, unexpected real life events etc. The only way I can accurately give a release date it to announce one when the update is essentially done. This isn’t my full time job, I work on this when I have time. I can announce when I would like to have it done, but that’s entirely a guess. I’m going to share my progress by providing actual completed work such as how many renders are complete and how much coding has been done and do this weekly in a dev log. I think this is the best I can do without promising something I may or may not be able to deliver. The fact is, I do this by myself and I don’t have anyone to rely on when life gets in the way or things go wrong. I think all things considered, this is the better approach.

 

[blkcrow20]

That's how almost all the devs I work with do it. No release date announced until the update is pretty much done. Smart way to do it.

 

[Eleanorduval]

Well what would you suggest I do? I can’t foresee delays, technical difficulties, unexpected real life events etc. The only way I can accurately give a release date it to announce one when the update is essentially done. This isn’t my full time job, I work on this when I have time. I can announce when I would like to have it done, but that’s entirely a guess. I’m going to share my progress by providing actual completed work such as how many renders are complete and how much coding has been done and do this weekly in a dev log. I think this is the best I can do without promising something I may or may not be able to deliver. The fact is, I do this by myself and I don’t have anyone to rely on when life gets in the way or things go wrong. I think all things considered, this is the better approach.

I suggest u hire a medium lol

 

[ding00000]

Well what would you suggest I do? I can’t foresee delays, technical difficulties, unexpected real life events etc. The only way I can accurately give a release date it to announce one when the update is essentially done. This isn’t my full time job, I work on this when I have time. I can announce when I would like to have it done, but that’s entirely a guess. I’m going to share my progress by providing actual completed work such as how many renders are complete and how much coding has been done and do this weekly in a dev log. I think this is the best I can do without promising something I may or may not be able to deliver. The fact is, I do this by myself and I don’t have anyone to rely on when life gets in the way or things go wrong. I think all things considered, this is the better approach.

How i see it, this is never a problem of not meeting deadlines that are set. It's not communicating delays and the scope/time investment needed for those delays in a timely fashion. Rest of this only becomes a problem when the delays become consistent.

To use the same analogy as before: am i pissed that my food was late, yes. I'll be more understanding when i get a call in advance that it got delayed and that it will be there 20 mins later.

The key here is timely fashion, you know well before that you're not going to make a deadline due to circumstances, you can't tell me that a 2-3 month delay comes out of no where.

I'm also not saying this out of hate, it's just that this is a path i've seen many devs take and so far it never ended well. Best of luck anyways. And take my opinion with a grain of salt as this is just how i look at it.

 

[Shiko200]

There is a vanilla route, but with a couple of things going on in the area the game is set, there are a couple of things that you can't get away from (for example seeing a flasher, or being forced/tricked into touching another woman's naked breast in the shower). The proper NTR route hasn't really started yet, so far it's all sharing-based activities, really.

I kinda prefer sharing or chicks sleeping around over hard ntr. So i will give sharing stuff a try after vanilla.

 

[Bobbyboy48]

How i see it, this is never a problem of not meeting deadlines that are set. It's not communicating delays and the scope/time investment needed for those delays in a timely fashion. Rest of this only becomes a problem when the delays become consistent.

To use the same analogy as before: am i pissed that my food was late, yes. I'll be more understanding when i get a call in advance that it got delayed and that it will be there 20 mins later.

The key here is timely fashion, you know well before that you're not going to make a deadline due to circumstances, you can't tell me that a 2-3 month delay comes out of no where.

I'm also not saying this out of hate, it's just that this is a path i've seen many devs take and so far it never ended well. Best of luck anyways. And take my opinion with a grain of salt as this is just how i look at it.

Completely fair point on the communication, I dropped the ball with that. As for release dates that were missed, things did keep happening that caused further delays, such as the decision to include the previously removed scenes that were not finished and then the content revision after that to appease patreon just in case. So I did have good intentions to meet the deadlines, they were just a bit ambitious at times and my intention to power through working double time just didn't work out due to other things like family and personal life responsibilities, technical issues etc. Anyway, this is all to say I've learned a lot from that development cycle and I'm going to not overpromise and under deliver and just be transparent about my progress and let the release date organically appear through the progress shown in the dev logs.

 

[Eleanorduval]

Completely fair point on the communication, I dropped the ball with that. As for release dates that were missed, things did keep happening that caused further delays, such as the decision to include the previously removed scenes that were not finished and then the content revision after that to appease patreon just in case. So I did have good intentions to meet the deadlines, they were just a bit ambitious at times and my intention to power through working double time just didn't work out due to other things like family and personal life responsibilities, technical issues etc. Anyway, this is all to say I've learned a lot from that development cycle and I'm going to not overpromise and under deliver and just be transparent about my progress and let the release date organically appear through the progress shown in the dev logs.

Some players don’t understand coding and rendering needs hard and long work.

People can’t realize thing when they aren’t in the place of the person who do them.

 

[boulimanus]

Some players don’t understand coding and rendering needs hard and long work.

u can’t realize thing when u aren’t in the place of the person who do them.

This certainly is the case, sometimes.
Other times, it can be that some players actually know, and don't understand why someone else isn't as efficient at coding as they are.
What is always true however, is your last sentence, you're not in the place of the other person, with their skills, their limitations, their responsibilities, etc.

What I'd say to Bobbyboy48 and any other dev however, is that all of those explanations are mostly irrelevant.
Not just because most of the readers won't get them, but mainly because the problem is self inflicted.

Devs who choose to put their game on Patreon as a subscription model during the development process, make a conscious decision to not just sell a product when it's complete. You can discourse about the donation nature of the beast if you like, it's not relevant either, as it is the same if the product is free.
Choosing an incremental model of delivery, is engaging in a system that provides flexibility at the cost of reliability. In project terms, people call it Agile. One of the danger of the flexibility, is dropped quality and total lack of progress. And one important aspect of doing Agile right, relies on progress visibility and feedback loop for constant improvements.

In the case at hand, a dev who decides to deliver their game like this, isn't limited to having to give deadlines and then realise they can't meet them. That's what companies who want to say they do Agile to be cool but can't afford to do it right, do. They aren't Agile, they're Fragile.
Another way of doing it, is to release things as they are done, iteratively. It doesn't have to be a defined lump, it's whatever is ready at the time. So a dev could set a fixed release window, and provide whatever is ready then. In this case, there is never any unexpected event that causes delay, because whatever isn't done just isn't meant to be released. Whatever is done, is released instead. And a release can even be buggy, that can be totally acceptable. The game isn't going to be finished before X time anyway, everyone knows this is an unfinished product and every regular release is only a show & tell of the progress so far.

An independant dev has full control on how they set up their business and processes. When they say they don't, it will always seem suspicious, or naive.
But at the same time, the whole thing is often a learning curve for buddying entrepreneurs. One has to give them time to learn and grow.

Good luck to Bobbyboy.

 

[davethewizard]

Ok so you acknowledged that you didn't communicate clearly or frequently enough and are trying to take accountability. By communicating less and not giving an estimated release date so people can't hold you accountable.

Imagine this being any other service, we're sorry your food came late. We'll fix this, not by giving you a better estimate or trying to do better next time ,BUT by never telling you when the food will arrive that way it's never late. ??????

You're right, imagine this being any other service. Imagine going out to a restaurant and demanding that they give you an exact time on when the servers will place the food down on your table, and treating it as absurd and shirking accountability when they tell you the kitchen doesn't actually run to a stopwatch. That would be really crazy, man.

I ain't even particularly invested in this game but this is an unhinged comparison to make in response to a fairly reasonable move. God knows committing to targets with only a dim idea if they're reachable has never ever happened or had avoidable impacts in the real, non-porn-game world.

 

[Filipis]

The purpose & idea behind Patreon is to let artists/creators receive funding for something they are working on, but otherwise wouldn't be able to work on - generally speaking.

An unwritten promise is in play here: I, the Patreon creator, will work on this thing, for which I will accept donations because a lot of people clearly want to see this thing worked on and/or completed.

I, the Patreon supporter, am not donating money to this Patreon creator because I want or need a friend, but because I want to see their idea/project worked on and/or completed.

So, when I "donate" money to their project, I expect it to be worked on/completed eventually in the described manner.

This is ultimately a transactional relationship, and both parties must give & take to get something out of it.

Like it or not, the relationship can be boiled down to "I pay for you to give me East Block updates, so give me East Block updates". Nothing more, nothing less. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that calling them "donations" somehow changes its nature.

And sure, I can vote with my wallet. But that doesn't diminish the frustrations of particular fans that felt they were aggrieved by the way the Creator was acting.



On another note, I do know of devs that adhere to a strict schedule (with maybe a few days of flex), and have managed to maintain it successfully for years now. Sure, every person is not the same, but from a business POV, the bar has been set - not our fault if you can't measure up to it.

 

[wildride69]

Well what would you suggest I do? I can’t foresee delays, technical difficulties, unexpected real life events etc. The only way I can accurately give a release date it to announce one when the update is essentially done. This isn’t my full time job, I work on this when I have time. I can announce when I would like to have it done, but that’s entirely a guess. I’m going to share my progress by providing actual completed work such as how many renders are complete and how much coding has been done and do this weekly in a dev log. I think this is the best I can do without promising something I may or may not be able to deliver. The fact is, I do this by myself and I don’t have anyone to rely on when life gets in the way or things go wrong. I think all things considered, this is the better approach.

I think you should ignore the people begging here and focus on your Patreons want's and wishes. So many people want to cry about the devs while having zero clue as to what it takes to make a successful VN. Pay attention to the comments here but ignore 99% of them and focus on the Subs. 3 comments I insta ignore "Hero", "When Update" "Devs Milking" when the update is 2 days later than announced.

The internet will internet and they can drive you crazy trying to satisfy fools that don't and won't support you anyway.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Filipis]

I think you should ignore the people begging here and focus on your Patreons want's and wishes. So many people want to cry about the devs while having zero clue as to what it takes to make a successful VN. Pay attention to the comments here but ignore 99% of them and focus on the Subs. 3 comments I insta ignore "Hero", "When Update" "Devs Milking" when the update is 2 days later than announced.

The internet will internet and they can drive you crazy trying to satisfy fools that don't and won't support you anyway.

Keep up the good work.

Listening ONLY to your subscribers is also a path to ruin.

Just because F95 Andy didn't pay for access to the game doesn't mean his opinion is automatically invalid.

True skill & wisdom is in discerning which feedback to listen to.

 

[HikBenAkk]

So you admit that you have no idea whether he's being fake or not. When a dev keeps saying an update will release for over 4 months but it didn't. Then you have to think something is seriously wrong or they are lying, maybe both... Either way you can't treat your customers like that, constantly saying an update will be ready many times over the four months is deceitful (intentional or not)

YES I can say it without any problem when it is a fact I know little about people and you ?
As long as you do not know about the dev more than me, saying a dev is "fake" or dishonest is no more accurate/likely than my choice (being trusting the dev when I see regular posts and acceptable explanations when he is late).
And just being late is dishonest from your pov ? Despite any explanation ?
I am even more eager to see how you will deal with problems when making your game, by problems I mean BIG ones, enough to take time to solve and WILL make you late releasing updates...
Claiming you will NEVER be late is naive... You have no experience and those, who do have here, are sometimes or often late... Refunds will not be enough to redeem yourself, you speak here only about being late to be unacceptable and disrespectful towards subscribers.
The game Life as an innocent waitress by Frisson Studios came here as an example of not being late... Very good game I like it a lot...
Have you seen its structure ? A repetitive day that loops and new content is unlocked by small parts each run (in-game day after in-game day) : good strategy to maximize reuse of assets... The only drawback is it can be seen as grinding when no/too little new content is available for some parts (subway molesting new content reached when new is still to unlock in the bar can make subway grinding, for example)
The East Block is not the same, it is like a movie, this means that reusability is lower when compared with Frisson Studios game and new assets must be made in each update : that put a higher risk to face problems and then... to be late...
No one from those two strategies of design can be seen as better than the other : both have their drawbacks...
Now about subscribers...
There is something weird about you to put ALL responsabilities on the dev and none on the subscribers...
Hey ! Subscribers are free make their own choices !! Promises are only binding on those who believe in them...
No dev can force you to subscribe against your will and managing your money is YOUR responsability, not the dev's... We are all adults there...
Some years ago, I supported a dev that gave up his game almost a year later without any warning : did I blame the dev ? No... I should have been more cautious. Period...
If ever this dev came back later with another game, obviously, I would not have supported his new game : he lost my trust...
You do not get how Patreon work... Devs and subscribers do not sign any contract or agreement of any kind that binds them... Hence, devs do not owe anything to subscribers...
In the other hand, in the same way that devs owe nothing to subscribers, subscribers do not owe trust and their support in devs... Trust MUST be earned and maintained by devs to gather interested subscribers around their game project.
Devs can nurture such trust with regular posts about their progression, the difficulties they face and delay risks that can occur...
Dishonesty is not in being late when you explain it, it is in hiding it without explanation... Food for thought...
Mark these words down for when you yourself will be late making your game... Unexpected problems WILL arise.. and problems that you do not see solution when they arise and that require investigation : such investigation means time consumed to find a solution and NOT continue adding new content to the game...
If you think a dev is not worthy of support, that's YOUR business, it doesn't challenge those who think otherwise unless you have more information (facts) you can share than just your feeling...

If a dev says the update is coming soon, say end of the month and a subscriber believes him. Then of course they will sign up for that period if they want to see the update. This is not something to blame the subscriber for. This is the devs fault for not sticking to his word! This shows your biast to the developer with blind trust, which he has taken advantage of but you still say its ok. Now supporters know not to trust the dev

Promises are only binding on those who believe in them...
I choose to support devs... But that does not mean I blindly support either...

Completely misunderstood what i was saying! I said the dev releases each update after the day of the month when the previous one was. So people who are subscribing month by month will pay an extra month from when they first did, to see the new update - not a bug fix update, a brand new one. Dev gets an extra month payment every update by releasing it on a certain day after most supporters subscription runs out. He has done this every update for over a year. Has nothing to do with a bug fix update - maybe use another translation software to understand what people are saying. This is why its so hard to have a conversation with someone who doesn't know English well. They can't understand some things and go off on tangents that have nothing to do with the original statement.

Yes, I misunderstood and you are right on one thing, I am not a native english speaker (french is). That makes my reaction about versioning off topic, yes...
That said, just tell me...
What does it change ? Does that make your posts less delusional ?
Nope... Rather than my speech about versioning, just read again my first lines about subscribers in this post... You will find my answer to what you say here...
I will just add that : I give money monthly, It then becomes part of my responsability as a subscriber to follow the dev's posts to be able to decide whether I continue to support or not... That's why, lack of communication from devs IS also a problem that can convince to stop support...
As a dev myself, I KNOW that problems that arise sometimes can be annoying and can make devs waste a lot of time... That's why I expect devs to speak about them to explain any delay I can see... You, YOU STLL KNOW NOTHING about all that... THAT makes all you claimed about delay to be unacceptable and despicable arrogance...

I made a general complaint about the game and the dev. It is YOU who argued and replied to me. I was not talking to you or at you. You decided to say these things because you were angry and frustrated that someone would say someting negative about something you like. As you are paying for this monthly and have emotional and monetary investment to defend. You could have said nothing and left it or even not replied to me but said something separately in the thread. You chose to be the one that started this. Yet you blame me?

Ok, I am not a native english speaker, but do not try to fool me !!
When speaking about frustration in the post of yours I reacted to, YOU replied to a post of MINE and you used "YOUR frustration" in it... How on earth can I suddenly be able to guess it is a "general complaint" ??
Come on !!

You call me stubborn and delusional throughout your speech. Im pointing out things which should be common sense and warning signs to you and others. Believe it or not but I'm actually trying to help you. When there are so many issues that have been going on - it is you who looks the stubborn one to not realize. You are putting up more excuses than the dev! There is a saying - "It is easier to fool someone, then to make them believe that they have been fooled". Its up to you to see these things happening and make your own mind up. For now you have chosen to defend the dev for even things you say you're not sure of. Yet you admit that there is problems but you trust him. How long will that trust last when these same things keep happening... ? Devs must love supporters like you! Many people have been in your position and defended devs when they were paying them, being naive over excuses. Once you stop and realize devs have been taking advantage of supporters trust, like lots of us who have been around this genre for many years and have learnt the painful way, which I'm trying to make you not go through. You will eventually see yourself what is actually going on.You are trusting first and sceptical last. Where as I am the opposite, as I've seen this pattern before from many devs.

"Warning signs" are subjective... They are not facts that no one can deny...
Nope... I do not defend the dev despite what you call "common sense", I just say that being late despite promising a release before is NEITHER being a liar nor being dishonest as long as you explain it by providing a good reason...
How do you know the "same things" keep happening to make this dev late ?
What make you sure this dev is taking "advantage of supporters trusts" ?
"Trusting first, skeptical last" ? Nope... I follow Innocent until proven guilty... If you do not do that, anyone can be accused of anything : unfair...
You MUST provide evidences to prove bad behavior... Following your way about criminality for example, prisons would be full of innocent people...

 

[wildride69]

Listening ONLY to your subscribers is also a path to ruin.

Just because F95 Andy didn't pay for access to the game doesn't mean his opinion is automatically invalid.

True skill & wisdom is in discerning which feedback to listen to.

I think I added "Pay attention to the comments here but ignore 99% of them and focus on the Subs. "

 

[Jude6]

(Continuing to ignore all the... discourse)

Had a thought yesterday that gave me a sinking feeling - I've been looking forward to the dinner with Nate since it was raised in chapter 6. He's gonna try and get seriously between Luke and Kathryn in a way no others have.
Plus, last time Kathryn and Nate were together she could go as far as giving him a blowjob - surely he's going to push for more than that this time around.
But so far Bobbyboy has been saving the full blown sex scenes for the end of each chapter (based on the small sample size we have) - that could always change as the story progresses and Luke and Kathryn's relationship changes, but who knows.

What do we think, will Dinner with Nate end prematurely or maybe with some kind of twist?

 

[Joshy92]

(Continuing to ignore all the... discourse)

Had a thought yesterday that gave me a sinking feeling - I've been looking forward to the dinner with Nate since it was raised in chapter 6. He's gonna try and get seriously between Luke and Kathryn in a way no others have.
Plus, last time Kathryn and Nate were together she could go as far as giving him a blowjob - surely he's going to push for more than that this time around.
But so far Bobbyboy has been saving the full blown sex scenes for the end of each chapter (based on the small sample size we have) - that could always change as the story progresses and Luke and Kathryn's relationship changes, but who knows.

What do we think, will Dinner with Nate end prematurely or maybe with some kind of twist?

Knowing how Bobby likes to tease, I bet this motherfucker will show back up just as Nate is about to bust a big nut inside Kathryn, lol

Spoiler

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[JillOC]

I look forward to Nathan and Todd (his plus 1) giving our beautiful Kathryn multiple orgasms