VN Ren'Py Completed The Engagement [v2.5.1] [Captain Kitty]

[Master of Puppets]

Reactions to 2.5.1:

Spoiler: I play Harem

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I liked this update a lot, although it's hard to call it an ending. You could consider it a cliffhanger I suppose. I'm definitely looking forward to the next game. Although the whole 'not telling Yue-Yue they're in a threesome' doesn't sound very smart, I hope there will be a good reason presented for that and it won't be too long before she finds out the truth.

 

[yihman1]

I disagree with pretty much all of these. None of these suggestions are really worthwhile or improves the game significantly.

1. Just too much work when a walkthrough is fine. It's literally 50 hours of work to avoid using a walkthrough, rofl.

2. 3. Get used to it? What does it matter.

4. 5. Then the game is braindead and uninteresting pander-fest. Having bad ends is key to having a good VN.

1) It's MUCH MUCH MORE work to make it complex in a way that requires a walkthrough. Especially assuming it leads to many "dead ends". Very few games require a detailed walkthrough. "Babysitter" fucked that up, and so did "Main Seduction". Simply "cockblocking every guy possible" is not a good path to get with a woman. Tell me why is it that for her to get fucked by these other guys just gotta miss ONE cock block, but to bone her yourself you gotta have 100% cock block accuracy? If you ever tried to get with a woman you don't do it by following her around and making sure no other dude fucks her. You actively make an effort to make yourself more desirable.

2/3) Why does it matter? It's about flow... That's it... It's all about flow. If the game doesn't flow well it's far less enjoyable. If you are sipping a cup of tea at the diner one second then the next you are at the beach checking out the girls, and a moment after that you are working in the office... 3 locations in under a minute... That's not a good flow. It's just randomly jumping around all over the place, and it doesn't feel like you were at any of the places. It would be fine to have a scene where you have some tea at the diner chatting up the cute waitress, then get in your car and go over to the beach and hang out with the sexy life guard before you drive to work. Connecting one scene to the next is important. I'm not arguing for some banality like make it so every day you must wake up, eat breakfast, shower, walk to the car, get in drive to work blah blah blah... That can be rather boring if overdone. A certain amount of "segway" helps a lot. It sucks when you are at home fucking a girl then 2 seconds later you are at work. That does not flow well together. In such a case maybe show 1 image of sleeping after sex, then 1 image of wake up, then 1 image of driving with a single line of dialogue in each. 3 images, 3 lines of dialogue and now the scenes are connected properly with only a little extra work.... Many gaps between scenes is not good for flow, and makes a game feel less immersive. As for random time jumps the same is also true. I'm not saying they should never be used ever no matter what but should be used sparingly as possible.

4/5) You are suggesting that having females that you can not bang on the cover image is "Good Marketing" for an adult game? How could you possibly think that is a good idea? It's borderline close to false advertisement. I can see nothing but RAGE from reviewers from such a decision... Why show off females you have no way of fucking? Why interact a bunch with a girl if you never get a chance to tap that ass? And you are suggesting that each branch should not have an ending as well? Seriously? So you are saying a game that has 5 branches is fine having 1 ending? Yet you harp on about how bad endings are good. Yes, I agree bad endings can be nice if done properly. "Depraved awakening" has such an ending with the Dragon, and was a nice addition. That game also is very complex and needs a walkthrough, but it has a "walkthrough mod" available so that's just fine. People don't mind a "walkthrough mod". They like those. However, most people are annoyed by looking over at a walkthrough thne back to the game then to the walkthrough then back to the game then walkthrough then game every choice.

end rant...

 

[Captain Kitty]

1) It's MUCH MUCH MORE work to make it complex in a way that requires a walkthrough. Especially assuming it leads to many "dead ends". Very few games require a detailed walkthrough. "Babysitter" fucked that up, and so did "Main Seduction". Simply "cockblocking every guy possible" is not a good path to get with a woman. Tell me why is it that for her to get fucked by these other guys just gotta miss ONE cock block, but to bone her yourself you gotta have 100% cock block accuracy? If you ever tried to get with a woman you don't do it by following her around and making sure no other dude fucks her. You actively make an effort to make yourself more desirable.

2/3) Why does it matter? It's about flow... That's it... It's all about flow. If the game doesn't flow well it's far less enjoyable. If you are sipping a cup of tea at the diner one second then the next you are at the beach checking out the girls, and a moment after that you are working in the office... 3 locations in under a minute... That's not a good flow. It's just randomly jumping around all over the place, and it doesn't feel like you were at any of the places. It would be fine to have a scene where you have some tea at the diner chatting up the cute waitress, then get in your car and go over to the beach and hang out with the sexy life guard before you drive to work. Connecting one scene to the next is important. I'm not arguing for some banality like make it so every day you must wake up, eat breakfast, shower, walk to the car, get in drive to work blah blah blah... That can be rather boring if overdone. A certain amount of "segway" helps a lot. It sucks when you are at home fucking a girl then 2 seconds later you are at work. That does not flow well together. In such a case maybe show 1 image of sleeping after sex, then 1 image of wake up, then 1 image of driving with a single line of dialogue in each. 3 images, 3 lines of dialogue and now the scenes are connected properly with only a little extra work.... Many gaps between scenes is not good for flow, and makes a game feel less immersive. As for random time jumps the same is also true. I'm not saying they should never be used ever no matter what but should be used sparingly as possible.

4/5) You are suggesting that having females that you can not bang on the cover image is "Good Marketing" for an adult game? How could you possibly think that is a good idea? It's borderline close to false advertisement. I can see nothing but RAGE from reviewers from such a decision... Why show off females you have no way of fucking? Why interact a bunch with a girl if you never get a chance to tap that ass? And you are suggesting that each branch should not have an ending as well? Seriously? So you are saying a game that has 5 branches is fine having 1 ending? Yet you harp on about how bad endings are good. Yes, I agree bad endings can be nice if done properly. "Depraved awakening" has such an ending with the Dragon, and was a nice addition. That game also is very complex and needs a walkthrough, but it has a "walkthrough mod" available so that's just fine. People don't mind a "walkthrough mod". They like those. However, most people are annoyed by looking over at a walkthrough thne back to the game then to the walkthrough then back to the game then walkthrough then game every choice.

end rant...

1/ It's true that it'll be way easier for me to make a game in which people will find the routes they want easier than this. Even a guy said he didn't support on patreon because he wanted a game in which he didn't need to try so hard for the routes he wanted. But my decision from the start: if we need a game in which there's no worry to find an exactly route, we should read erotic novels because it'll be more easier. So Jealousy will be just like the way The Engagement is, which only one improvement: NTR turn on/off option.

2-3/ You're right, this is one of the weaknesses in The Engagement/Jealousy. But between making a game like that (which cost more time to develop) and making a game like the way I'm doing, I choose the current way. To have the kind of game you speak about, I need to leave my daily job, which can't be a choice at the moment. Unlike other popular devs, I'm just a low-level dev and I can't live by developing The Engagement/Jealousy. I have to work in reality.

4-5/ The island was a bad choice. I admitted that I did that just for the cross-promotion with Erodio, and it was a dumb choice. But Amity, Dianne and Katie have their roles in Jealousy. That's why I'm so lazy to answer on f95 because most of the time those questions were answered on patreon and discord long before the questions appear on f95.

 

[Captain Kitty]

Reactions to 2.5.1:

Spoiler: I play Harem

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I liked this update a lot, although it's hard to call it an ending. You could consider it a cliffhanger I suppose. I'm definitely looking forward to the next game. Although the whole 'not telling Yue-Yue they're in a threesome' doesn't sound very smart, I hope there will be a good reason presented for that and it won't be too long before she finds out the truth.

I intended to have a fight between them but I decided to let it end peacefully for him to come back in Jealousy. If they fight in The Engagement, the story in Jealousy will take too much into thinking about when he's back. But I want Jealousy to be the main idea.

 

[Captain Kitty]

Well, if Emily breaks your relationship, she will fuck the slug of her ex-boyfriend a couple of times and make a threesome on your face. So no, there is no reconciliation. Emily's role in this game is somewhat strange, since it's the true love of the MC, not the lover. What does not fit me, is why she miss MC so much on the beach, and then end the game that way ... the truth is a kinda weird end for me.

I think there's a misunderstanding here: only the MC misses Suzie on the beach.

 

[Captain Kitty]

Also they really should have had a just normal emily path ending. If you give 2 fucks about suzy and focus 100% on emily you get no closure in the end with emily.

I also informed everyone on patreon and discord (even before anyone made a question): there's no ending for Emily. But there'll be endings for her in Jealousy. Woody and other guys also have their own endings.

 

[taler]

Thanks for taking the time to further develop your suggestions even though I replied pretty flippantly. I feel much less passionate about this topic than you do so forgive me if I don't engage with the proper intensity. Also I haven't actually played this game yet. Can someone answer this question for me.

Who is the guy in the main menu? Is it a player character or ntr competitor?

1) I thought you were talking about making an ingame hint system, which would be much more work. But if you mean just simplifying the game I really wouldn't enjoy that. People want different things out of a VN. My favorite VNs are complex as hell, think something like School Days or Ever 17. If your favorite VNs are nukiges which don't use the interactive storytelling system to great effect then our tastes just differ on a fundamental level.

2/3) The word is "segue" my man lol. I've heard complaints like this before about other stories but I never understood them. The flow is more like a stacco than a melody, but it's a stylistic choice that the author is going for. Some people appreciate that there's less drag because we can imagine the implied transitions in our heads. For example in renpy I turn all transitions off, text speed to max. Every time I get a new phone I turn all animations off so I can see my actions immediately. I really hate waiting. Maybe it's just me but I think that's pretty common.

4/5) I'll give you on the cover girl, that's probably too much, if she's less important then the cover shouldn't feature her as heavily. But yeah it's good that it's not obvious which girls are fuckable or not. If they all are, then the game would devolve into a fuck fest. It's more immersive if there is a cast, female characters with their own agency, and a world that doesn't consist of just YOU+THEHAREM. Like I said adding walkthrough mods is so much work when you can just use external walkthroughs like I've been doing for 20 years...

 

[Captain Kitty]

4/5) I'll give you on the cover girl, that's probably too much, if she's less important then the cover shouldn't feature her as heavily. But yeah it's good that it's not obvious which girls are fuckable or not. If they all are, then the game would devolve into a fuck fest. It's more immersive if there is a cast, female characters with their own agency, and a world that doesn't consist of just YOU+THEHAREM. Like I said adding walkthrough mods is so much work when you can just use external walkthroughs like I've been doing for 20 years...

Olivia was deleted from the harem long long long long ago. F95 is always slower than people on patreon and discord. The cover in this topic doesn't even appear in the game.

 

[taler]

Olivia was deleted from the harem long long long long ago. F95 is always slower than people on patreon and discord. The cover in this topic doesn't even appear in the game.

Who is the guy in the main menu? Is it a player character or ntr competitor? He looks different from the player character as we're introduced in the first scenes?

 

[SAMASH112]

I think there's a misunderstanding here: only the MC misses Suzie on the beach.

Yeah sorry, it wasn't on the beach, it was when the plane crashed and they ended up on a beach. But mostly I mean when Emily think about the MC, while she fucks with the slug (Alex).

I don't know, but the character's script implies as if I expected something else to happen and, I don't know what the other players think, but that is what I understood.. That's why I was waiting for something else to happen between them, but it wasn't.

 

[Captain Kitty]

Who is the guy in the main menu? Is it a player character or ntr competitor? He looks different from the player character as we're introduced in the first scenes?

People on patreon and discord knew there were polls to decide the MC and Yue-Yue's hair.

 

[Captain Kitty]

But mostly I mean when Emily think about the MC, while she fucks with the slug (Alex).

Some women did that. At least that's how they (some women) told me.

 

[SAMASH112]

Some women did that. At least that's how they (some women) told me.

YEah you're right. That's why I kept waiting for a continuation, a possible response or scene between the characters (MC-Emily).

 

[taler]

People on patreon and discord knew there were polls to decide the MC and Yue-Yue's hair.

So the guy on the cover is the MC but the MC ended up getting his hair changed for the in-game images?

 

[Captain Kitty]

So the guy on the cover is the MC but the MC ended up getting his hair changed for the in-game images?

I guess you didn't finish the game.

 

[yihman1]

1/ It's true that it'll be way easier for me to make a game in which people will find the routes they want easier than this. Even a guy said he didn't support on patreon because he wanted a game in which he didn't need to try so hard for the routes he wanted. But my decision from the start: if we need a game in which there's no worry to find an exactly route, we should read erotic novels because it'll be more easier. So Jealousy will be just like the way The Engagement is, which only one improvement: NTR turn on/off option.

Let me run this math past you, and see if it makes sense to you so you understand just what you are doing to your players if you continue doing things exactly how you are doing them.

Suppose there are 20 choice sets between start and your goal of fuck girl.
Each choice set has 2 choices.
2 to the power of 20 = 1,048,576 possible completed choice branches.
It would be over 100 times easier to randomly guess a 4 digit random numerical code as on a pin number.
Sure people could look at a walkthrough, or pop the game open with unren and have a look for the correct branch.

So players are left with 1 of 3 options if they choose to continue.

1) Keep playing over and over getting more and more frustrated trying to find their way.

2) Keep looking at a guide each and every choice back and forth back and forth back and forth... Focusing as much on the guide than the game.

3) Going through line after line of code searching for the proper path.

Why not incorporate a 4th option to start the game?

A built-in color-coded guide.
At start of game it asks "Would you like to use the built in guide?" yes/no

If yes is answered then it asks "Which path would you like to choose?"

Then it gives you a choice of all the paths to follow on the guide and you pick one... Then anything that is MANDATORY for that path is now green. Players are now happy they don't gotta do 1 of the other 3 options unless they feel like it.

If you selected no, then the game has no color code guide used and it's how it runs how you normally made this game. Such a guide would be simple to build in, probably just as easy as making a walkthrough.

Another way to make such a guide is to simply show points gained / lost

 

[UncleVT]

I guess you didn't finish the game.

You're answering to one guy who doesn't play the game

Also I haven't actually played this game yet.

 

[Sinphil]

I disagree with pretty much all of these. None of these suggestions are really worthwhile or improves the game significantly.

1. Just too much work when a walkthrough is fine. It's literally 50 hours of work to avoid using a walkthrough, rofl.

2. 3. Get used to it? What does it matter.

4. 5. Then the game is braindead and uninteresting pander-fest. Having bad ends is key to having a good VN.

It is the art of story telling, whatever the genre. You don't just tell a story, like any craft it is built from ground up. The management of timing and pace is just as important as the information shared in words themselves.

He never asked for no bad endings, he commented on paths matching endings and interactable characters. It doesn't have to be a ride off into sunset ending and it can be good, bad or bittersweet (hell a good bittersweet ending shits on both good and bad endings and allows writer to both reward and punish MC for choices made).

There are two sorts of criticism, one a weapon that wielded to offend and hurt. The other is to support potential and help each other improve our crafts.

 

[Captain Kitty]

Let me run this math past you, and see if it makes sense to you so you understand just what you are doing to your players if you continue doing things exactly how you are doing them.

Suppose there are 20 choice sets between start and your goal of fuck girl.
Each choice set has 2 choices.
2 to the power of 20 = 1,048,576 possible completed choice branches.
It would be over 100 times easier to randomly guess a 4 digit random numerical code as on a pin number.
Sure people could look at a walkthrough, or pop the game open with unren and have a look for the correct branch.

So players are left with 1 of 3 options if they choose to continue.

1) Keep playing over and over getting more and more frustrated trying to find their way.

2) Keep looking at a guide each and every choice back and forth back and forth back and forth... Focusing as much on the guide than the game.

3) Going through line after line of code searching for the proper path.

Why not incorporate a 4th option to start the game?

A built-in color-coded guide.
At start of game it asks "Would you like to use the built in guide?" yes/no

If yes is answered then it asks "Which path would you like to choose?"

Then it gives you a choice of all the paths to follow on the guide and you pick one... Then anything that is MANDATORY for that path is now green. Players are now happy they don't gotta do 1 of the other 3 options unless they feel like it.

If you selected no, then the game has no color code guide used and it's how it runs how you normally made this game. Such a guide would be simple to build in, probably just as easy as making a walkthrough.

I think it's very simple because we can scroll back and many options are very easy to choose so the possibility calculation isn't actually right. Example: the decision to choose Emily or Suzie at the end of the harem route: it's simple to choose both. Anyway, this is how I code (it's not as complicated as people think):


That's how I develop routes. And I don't think I'll change because what I've wanted from the start: even a wrong choice leads to a bad ending. So of course I understand that people will get frustrated. It's just that people don't understand that I want to make them frustrated. LOL. At least there's an option to turn of NTR in Jealousy.

You're answering to one guy who doesn't play the game

Oh, thanks. I didn't know that.

 

[Captain Kitty]

Let me run this math past you, and see if it makes sense to you so you understand just what you are doing to your players if you continue doing things exactly how you are doing them.

Suppose there are 20 choice sets between start and your goal of fuck girl.
Each choice set has 2 choices.
2 to the power of 20 = 1,048,576 possible completed choice branches.
It would be over 100 times easier to randomly guess a 4 digit random numerical code as on a pin number.
Sure people could look at a walkthrough, or pop the game open with unren and have a look for the correct branch.

So players are left with 1 of 3 options if they choose to continue.

1) Keep playing over and over getting more and more frustrated trying to find their way.

2) Keep looking at a guide each and every choice back and forth back and forth back and forth... Focusing as much on the guide than the game.

3) Going through line after line of code searching for the proper path.

Why not incorporate a 4th option to start the game?

A built-in color-coded guide.
At start of game it asks "Would you like to use the built in guide?" yes/no

If yes is answered then it asks "Which path would you like to choose?"

Then it gives you a choice of all the paths to follow on the guide and you pick one... Then anything that is MANDATORY for that path is now green. Players are now happy they don't gotta do 1 of the other 3 options unless they feel like it.

If you selected no, then the game has no color code guide used and it's how it runs how you normally made this game. Such a guide would be simple to build in, probably just as easy as making a walkthrough.

Another way to make such a guide is to simply show points gained / lost

The fourth option is what I don't want to do because:
1/ I can't do (don't know how to code).
2/ People say the game is unrealistic so I don't want to make it more unrealistic.
3/ The most important reason: The Engagement and Jealousy aren't based on 'points', they are based on 'choices'. One choice will (or will not) lead to a different route. That's why if we use the idea of color point system (like Good Girl Gone Bad), it won't be The Engagement/Jealousy anymore.

I played Good Girl Gone Bad 2 years ago, and I know about that kind of system.
Many people prefer that system when some (very less people) like the current system of The Engagement/Jealousy.
But there are people like the current system (even though it's a very less number) so I choose the current system. Because I like the current system. I don't like the way of doing this or that and earn 1 point love, 1 point lust...

I have to have breakfast now. Sorry.