- Mar 19, 2017
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RPGM The Last Sovereign [v0.77.2] [Sierra Lee]
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- Oct 17, 2017
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- Sep 6, 2018
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Considering the chest with them is still there, it might be possible to reach it in later updates.
- Mar 19, 2017
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Oh shit. BR here. Saw the "de novo" and my brain went "something is wrong here" mode.
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- Jun 28, 2017
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The author isn't subverting anything. Simon is the same sexless motivationless gary stu character that bad female authors tend to write. Sierras scenes are basically feminist, and as such real boring.
The direction people want Sierras games to go never go there so most people don't play them for the sex scenes since they're void of value.
Oh come on! We just got through the "IZ THIS GAME NTR!!?!?!?!?!?! CUCK! Debate.
Can we not start on the "SIMON IZ THE GARYZ STU! Debates.
Just speak for yourself, just because you don't have a personal preference to these kinds of scenes, don't act as this is the common opinion of the game.
Can we not start on the "SIMON IZ THE GARYZ STU! Debates.
Just speak for yourself, just because you don't have a personal preference to these kinds of scenes, don't act as this is the common opinion of the game.
Ah yes, those drab feminist porn fantasy harem writers, that type of writing is so overdone and such a common place that I honestly can't imagine anyone ever finding it interesting anymore, please can we have some variation and get more games where the MC is something more unique like a spry young "adult" (actually written like a 12 years old in an 18 years old body), whose sole motivation is to have a lot of sex and become the super duper king of the world, despite their complete lack of experience and knowledge in any areas that would be required for him to be an even slightly competent ruler and administrator, now THAT would be a breath of fresh air in the porn fantasy genre.
In a more serious note and making an effort to not dismiss the criticism, take a moment to think about TLS' setting and story and then tell me: If not Simon, who would work as a protagonist for this story?
I can agree that Simon to an extent can fit the type of a "dreamy mature hunk", a staple of some female erotica, and I can go even a step further and agree that characters like that can be "wasted" and be kinda dull in simpler and meandering stories, but one of the themes of TLS is essentially a "functional power fantasy", we're talking about a guy being infused with terrible powers (mind control, mental enslavement, destructive powers) and then telling his story of political intrigue, manipulation of the masses, false flag attacks, war and tyranny, all of this leading into his ascension into essentially godhood and altering the universe, and this is the guy you cheer for in this game. Who exactly would you want in Simon's place? A naive and dumb as rocks shonen protagonist type? A selfish and jaded asshole type? A pervert that loses focus at any glance of BOOBA? Like, all those characters could be funny and even have their own charm, but they all would be profoundly disturbing if they were the protagonists of the story TLS is trying to tell.
Also I feel Sierra doesn't really write the scenes to be "hot" as much as to fit the characters, Simon is not really gonna go through a new kink in every scene just to keep them fresh, there are still quite a few really good scenes when they are more focused on the nuances of each partner, but I can agree Simon's participation can feel a bit dull sometimes, but I chalk that to mostly overexposure and maintaining his consistency as a character.
So the real hot controversial take is this: A way to deal with issues of scene diversity without breaking characterization would be to have more scenes without Simon being involved, just saying...
- Apr 28, 2017
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Not really, since Sierra can write character arcs. Like i said a few posts back, a (Chosen) PC evolving throughout the story, in say the same manner Kalant did, would have been insanely more interesting than Simon's 'character arc', which was pretty much resolved in the first few hours and has been stagnating ever since.
The harem dynamics would have also benefitted from the above, if nothing else because those relationship would have flourished with time rather than being born in a vanilla suit. Just look at Janine; no doubts, no second thoughts, just
from the get-go and straight to marriage, which is also how it goes for most of the other harem members. It's boring, to be brief, and why Ginasta is overall my favorite female character. She doesn't turn into a watered down version of herself when Simon's in a 10 foot radius, calls him out and actually challenges him (however misguided the game portrays her as). Dynamic rather than stagnant, in other words.Also, about the first segment of your post, Simon's type is more common than you might think amongst the works of amateur writers. Not that i would call Sierra that, mind you, even though i do think it's kind of ironic that she chose to subvert one trope by falling into another.
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While I do think you make some good points, about most female characters falling Simon a bit too quickly, that might just be how SL HAS to make the game. You like Ginasta (and so do I #1 fan!) but I've seen a lot of people still pissed she doesn't worship the ground Simon walks upon. Same with Xestris, people questioning why she isn't immediately turning on the Anak (who she has worked with for decades) and thrown her lot in with Simon (who's she's known like a week.) And people are STILL mad there is no option to add Tyna to the harem.Not really, since Sierra can write character arcs. Like i said a few posts back, a (Chosen) PC evolving throughout the story, in say the same manner Kalant did, would have been insanely more interesting than Simon's 'character arc', which was pretty much resolved in the first few hours and has been stagnating ever since.
The harem dynamics would have also benefitted from the above, if nothing else because those relationship would have flourished with time rather than being born in a vanilla suit. Just look at Janine. No doubts, no nothing, just
Also, Simon's type is more common than you might think in the works of amateur writers. Not that i would call Sierra that, mind you, even though it's kind of ironic that subverted one trope just to fall into another.
That said the only point I disagree with is the "become watered down version" comment on the girls who join the harem. I don't really see it as pretty much every girl seems to improve their character traits going forward with Simon. Megail is still the economic genius, but has started showing a softer side. Trin has had her entire arc laid out this very update. Re-Shaped Varia has been a joy to watch grow. Carina's struggles with her faith. Ect.
Also perhaps a completely unrelated point, but I really like how the game avoids the common trope of OP characters getting nerfed once they join the "Hero's" team. The Empress, Wendis, and Sabitha really preformed this last update all of them pulling some major weight. I love how the Empress can just take on the Lord of Blood's entire base herself, Wendis finally taking Tanurak down a peg, and Sabitha on par with another Incubus King like Fuzoko.
Last point I want to bring up is that I don't really think the "Choosen" character arc would work well in this game. For one, it'd be so overdone to have another 18 hero who is setting out to right the wrongs of the world, that's the arc that every game has. More then that, I like the fact that Simon has been fighting this war against lust his entire life. He isn't just some punk who was born for great things or destined for success. He spent the ages 15-55 fighting against the Incubus King and mostly losing. It makes his struggle all the more real, as he has bleed for his position.
Even if you think Simon is a bit too much of a "perfrct husbando" he somewhat needs to be for the nature of the game. If Simon was someone riddled with character flaws, perhaps that would be more interesting, but I think it would reflect poorly on EVERYONE else in the Harem who joins up with him despite the obvious flaws.
Right now, it's no debate that Simon should be in charge, and it feels earned because he has the experience, intelligence, and ability for it. But if the protagonist was some kind of Kalant type who was just learning his place in the world? He'd not work as a leader at all, someone like Hilstaria or Megail would make a better leader. The only reason they'd be following him was because of a magic dick, and as the other Incubus King's have shown A good dick does not make a good leader.
The issue to me about giving TLS a protagonist that starts "bad" (either from inexperience/incompetence or moral character flaws), is that I think that would cause the game to take much longer to start the "conquest" part of the story. A lot of the shady things Simon does to gain power would be impossible to get behind if Simon's character wasn't someone you can have full confidence in, in the game we've been plotting world domination since chapter 1, if Simon did not appear morally cohesive then we'd very quickly fall into "we are the actual villains" territory with generic "power corrupts" themes, and if Simon wasn't competent enough to be credible as a ruler then the story would be pretty contradictory with our struggle to defeat all those "bad leaders" while being a terrible one ourselves, or the story would have to be cheesy and make sure things absolutely always work out for us and there is no consequence for incompetence and unpreparedness.Not really, since Sierra can write character arcs. Like i said a few posts back, a (Chosen) PC evolving throughout the story, in say the same manner Kalant did, would have been insanely more interesting than Simon's 'character arc', which was pretty much resolved in the first few hours and has been stagnating ever since.
The harem dynamics would have also benefitted from the above, if nothing else because those relationship would have flourished with time rather than being born in a vanilla suit. Just look at Janine. No doubts, no nothing, just
Also, Simon's type is more common than you might think in the works of amateur writers. Not that i would call Sierra that, mind you, even though it's kind of ironic that subverted one trope just to fall into another.
If TLS as it is already took like 6 years in development and has 5 chapters, god knows how long it would take for a TLS that starts with a more flawed MC that has to do a lot of character growth before him being a "sovereign" stops sounding like a terrible idea. I don't mind Simon starting as a mostly "grown" character since the stories are more about the challenge of his goals being possible at all, rather than the challenges to his person.
Also I didn't say that Simon's character is uncommon, just that in my experience it is uncommon to actually see it used for this type of story about seeking power and world domination, rather than just being a guy living his life and being lusted after by bored housewives. EDIT: Now that I think about it, this might be something acknowledged by the creepy pervy neighbor Simon has in Feroholm.
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- Apr 28, 2017
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Answering to you both here, frankly i believe a Chosen protagonist wouldn't have needed all that much to even work with the same plot. Just re-employ Simon as a mentor of sorts, possibly even the one calling the shots for the first chapter or so, make this hypothetical PC get his ass beat a couple times to snap him out of the asshole, and there. That would have worked wonders for the narrative, at least as far as i'm concerned, in no small part due to how watching a character change and grow is simply more interesting, and allows for more of a connection, than simply being dropped into their final form (or near enough).
As for the watered down bit, i was more talking about how characters like Aka and Megail drop their attitude whenever they interact with Simon. Like, i love most of the girls when they're doing their own stuff, and i'm not blind to the arcs they've gone through, but Jesus if they don't all turn into meek waifus whenever the guy's around. Just, no teasing, no doubting, no questioning, no challenging.
It's no wonder to Trin doesn't get the spotlight much. Her personality, more than anyone else's bar Ginasta, is completely at odds with how Sierra has decided to go about depicting those relationships.
As for the watered down bit, i was more talking about how characters like Aka and Megail drop their attitude whenever they interact with Simon. Like, i love most of the girls when they're doing their own stuff, and i'm not blind to the arcs they've gone through, but Jesus if they don't all turn into meek waifus whenever the guy's around. Just, no teasing, no doubting, no questioning, no challenging.
It's no wonder to Trin doesn't get the spotlight much. Her personality, more than anyone else's bar Ginasta, is completely at odds with how Sierra has decided to go about depicting those relationships.
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I think my biggest problem with the "choosen" sort of character is that you would lose the "long struggle" angle that Simon has had, fighting for literally 40 years against a seemingly unbeatable foe. Losing his wife, and who knows how many friends across the way. Plus even if he is only 60, he has the experience of old age. I feel like it would just...trivialize his connection with people like the Empress or Tetria if all they needed was some young dick walking in.
Perhaps this is me watching too much iseakai, but I really enjoy Simon not needing every bit of world lore spoon fed to him. I like that he isn't someone who just was dropped into the world, or someone who "Lived his whole life in a small isolated village until it was burned down by the demon king so he blah blah blah-" It's quite refreshing that he not only has knowledge of the world itself, but has made his own connections. Wynn, Hilstaria, Robin, Rialia ect.
I know some people like to call this kind of knowledge "Gary Stu" but that's like saying someone in our world is a gary Stu because they "Can drive a car, have basic knowledge of WW2, and have a stamp collection!"
Yeah fair enough. I think that it would still be finicky to balance a story of "Your character still has a lot of growing to do" with "Your character will seize control of the whole world and that can morally be a good thing". In a longer story covering an entire lifespan it would be a good foundation for an epic, but definitely wouldn't want it to feel rushed.
I guess that ultimately it is a matter of preference and what you want from the game though, some of my favorite games had excellent character growth, but they almost always left this "itch" by not answering the question of "what exactly is the character going to do with all this growth they achieved" since that's usually where the story would end, TLS has been kinda satisfying that because, although it starts with a mostly realized character, it gives a detailed exploration of the monumental tasks the characters are achieving.
Regarding the "waifus", I agree with you for some characters, in particular Aka, never really cared for how she's been kind of written to have a weak spot for Simon from minute 1, both figuratively due to her attraction to mature men and litterally because she's cursed into needing to be with Simon to survive, it feels like all of that just kinda skips the part of the story where she was supposed to develop her chemistry with Simon and it is mostly waved away with her being constantly comforting Simon about it after she's cured and holding no resentment nor doubts.
Most of the other characters are fine to me though. I like Megail's progression, she didn't imediatelly accept the situation with Simon, but after deciding to stick with him she did commit and didn't take half-measures towards the goal of fixing greater economical issues, her brash attitude has always been something she mostly puts as a front when dealing with "competitors", but when working with allies she's always been leaning more towards being coldly efficient, focusing more on getting things done than trying to enforce her personal opinion. Janine was kinda isolated after a miserable marriage with a husband that wasn't particularly helpful with including her in the whole governing Yhilin stuff, to me it is kind of a surprise she didn't jump Simon's bones any earlier since Simon kinda gave her everything she ever wanted. Also we're really late into the story, makes sense things between characters would become much more harmonous, specially with Simon being such a no-nonsense character.
Speaking of character growth, I want to talk about Yarra, and how depressing it is that so many see her actions at the gathering her "NTRing" Simon. Where honestly it comes across to me as the complete opposite.
Chapter 1 Yarra is a complete Hedonist. She's not with Simon because she likes him, she's with him because he's an incubus King, meaning sticking with him will mean power and great sex for her. It's why she is Constantly trying to get Simon to fuck every female in sight to boost his power, and why she gives no fucks about tricking Robin into looking in on her father sleeping with Qum and Aka.
But that's the beauty of her arc. Remember in chapter 2 Simon is kidnapped by the Empress and there was a 99% chance he was dead/mind broken. I really think old Yarra would have gone to the gathering not to help the almost surely dead Simon, but to shop around for a new Incubus King to stick with.
Not only that, but at one point the Incubus Emperor blast Yarra with most powerful blast of sexual energy he had, something that overwhelm any other succubus. But even though it's powerful, mindless hedonism "isn't enough for her." it lacks any of the emotional connection she and Simon have, so she brushes it off.
Chapter 1 Yarra is a complete Hedonist. She's not with Simon because she likes him, she's with him because he's an incubus King, meaning sticking with him will mean power and great sex for her. It's why she is Constantly trying to get Simon to fuck every female in sight to boost his power, and why she gives no fucks about tricking Robin into looking in on her father sleeping with Qum and Aka.
But that's the beauty of her arc. Remember in chapter 2 Simon is kidnapped by the Empress and there was a 99% chance he was dead/mind broken. I really think old Yarra would have gone to the gathering not to help the almost surely dead Simon, but to shop around for a new Incubus King to stick with.
Not only that, but at one point the Incubus Emperor blast Yarra with most powerful blast of sexual energy he had, something that overwhelm any other succubus. But even though it's powerful, mindless hedonism "isn't enough for her." it lacks any of the emotional connection she and Simon have, so she brushes it off.
- Apr 28, 2017
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I think i've said all i needed to say on the topic, so i will just add that i completely understand the hitch you get. Truth be told, i absolutely adore it when games touch on the "post-main story" period (usually through expansions such as Dragon Age:Awakening and Blood&Wine, if you know of them).
There's just something inherently satisfying about going from an underdog trying to save the world, to an unholy badass who saved the world and is now just chilling and cleaning up pests.
Hey, remember that time Simon failed and it wasn't the result of a bad player decision? Him having no character arc and him never failing in any significant way both contribute to making him a massive Gary Stu. A character without any flaws, basically.
Starting from zero would have been inappropriate for this kind of game, but he could have been given a non fatal flaw or something. Not sure it would have helped much. For most people who find him boring (me included), it's not so much that he's a Gary Stu, but that he doesn't do theatrics or break things.
Simobi-wan
Starting from zero would have been inappropriate for this kind of game, but he could have been given a non fatal flaw or something. Not sure it would have helped much. For most people who find him boring (me included), it's not so much that he's a Gary Stu, but that he doesn't do theatrics or break things.
That would be very, very cliché tbh
Simobi-wan
Simon's wife was murdered? Simon lost his friendship with Wynn? He was defeated in the prologue and lost Altinia? He miscalculated with Megail in chapter 1 letting her try to sabotage him after there first sexual encounter? He experinced MASSIVE failure at the start of chapter 2. Because of his failure to gain enough strength during the Incubus King's assault and needing to deal with the Seed of chaos himself he lost Rialia to the Incubus Emperor forcing her into rape and brainwashed slavery, and wound up getting himself kidnapped by the Empress for 3 months.Hey, remember that time Simon failed and it wasn't the result of a bad player decision? Him having no character arc and him never failing in any significant way both contribute to making him a massive Gary Stu. A character without any flaws, basically.
Starting from zero would have been inappropriate for this kind of game, but he could have been given a non fatal flaw or something. Not sure it would have helped much. For most people who find him boring (me included), it's not so much that he's a Gary Stu, but that he doesn't do theatrics or break things.
That would be very, very cliché tbh
Simobi-wan
Are these enough failures or should I keep listing them? I admit they get scarcer they go on. (Almost like he has an arc where he gets better at this whole ruling thing)
As for character arcs how about his arc with Wynn of the Death of Wendis? They used to be BFF's forever, but when we get back together Simon gets more angry then we've ever seen from him before, and the matter is not immediately resolved. Wendis's death causes a falling out between them all those years ago, and it caused a similar rift in the present.
My favorite part of their joint arc is that Wynn doesn't apologize for trying to bring Wendis back, she apologizes for hurting Simon by being uncaring to his feelings. And Simon turns around and does the same to her, he immediately turned to anger when he saw Wendis's body had been dug up, without hearing her reasons. The originality of the arc is not that either one admits fault or tries to forgive the other, they just finally accept they both cared deeply for Wendis and neither owned a "monopoly" on how to best grieve her.
Other joint arcs could be with Uyae, Robin, Carina, pretty much everyone. Simon doesn't have much of a "solo" character arc, but he is a key part to every other arc from the harem.
None of this is his fault. The game makes clear that Wendis' death isn't his fault. Wynn is the one who lost the friendship, because of the whole "desecrating the bodies of loved ones". His defeat in the prologue is shown as the Chosen's fault for being a little shit.
And there was no negative consequences whatsoever. It's also shown as being Megail's fault. She's the one who ends up apologizing when she realizes she was being silly for no reason. But I still liked this part, since it's the closest to an actual mistake on Simon's part.
I wouldn't call that a failure on his part. He did his very best given the hand he was delt. He made absolutely no mistake or error, he just got terribly unlucky.
My point exactly.
To be fair, he's sort of given very discreet character arcs. He comments on his psychological blindspots, try to correct them, etc. But it's just fluff in some dialogues, with very little overall impact.