VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

4.50 star(s) 57 Votes

MiltonPowers

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She lied at first, but then broke her oath to protect him when shit hit the fan. Until that time, honoring her oath didn't put MC in danger and allowed him to live a life free of the pressures of being the Templar leader's son. He was blissful and at peace. Then things changed, and she placed him above her oath.
She didn't break her oath. She disobeyed one order, and if you want to be technical, her major order was to protect MC, so she disobeyed 1 order, to obey her prime directive.
The first and only time she didn't follow an order and she didn't even get in trouble because of who it was, she was saving.
She has never placed him above her oath (yet!). Saving him was her oath.
Even after she saved him, nothing changed. She still said:

"My sense of duty won, I can't apologize for lying to you."
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"If I did it all over again, I would still lie to you."

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"Duty First"

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Things may yet change and she will place MC above her oath. But she definitely hasn't yet.
 
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MiltonPowers

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In a military order, disobeying a direct order is a violation of one's oath.
True. But she had conflicting orders. When you have conflicting orders, you follow the major directive, or the one from the highest authority, which is what she did.
 

DaFinker

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Apr 24, 2024
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True. But she had conflicting orders. When you have conflicting orders, you follow the major directive, or the one from the highest authority, which is what she did.
I honestly think most folks so salty about her, consciously or not, are mostly pissed that she made a decision that a man would have made under the same circumstances, but that it was the woman doing the protecting and the man being protected - it doesn't fit with the "natural order". Not saying it's outright, hard misogyny, but the "soft misogyny" that the man is the protector and must always know everything and it's a betrayal of the natural order of things if a woman makes such a decision - a decision that would seem stoic and heroic if made by the man. It's the same ingrained hindbrain kind of thing that makes a man hesitate just slightly more when it's a woman with a gun on him than when it's a man: we're wired to protect the women and children, not harm them, even if they're about to murder us or someone else. Some will screech at that assessment (I'm not like that at all!!!!!!), but I'm pretty sure the science of it is on my side. ;)
 
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MiltonPowers

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I honestly think most folks so salty about her, consciously or not, are mostly pissed that she made a decision that a man would have made under the same circumstances, but are pissed that it was the woman doing the protecting and the man being protected - it doesn't fit with the "natural order". Not saying it's outright, hard misogyny, but the "soft misogyny" that the man is the protector and must always know everything and it's a betrayal of the natural order of things if a woman makes such a decision - a decision that would seem stoic and heroic if made by the man. It's the same ingrained hindbrain kind of thing that makes a man hesitate just slightly more when it's a woman with a gun on him than when it's a man: we're wired to protect the women and children, not harm them, even if they're about to murder us or someone else. Some will screech at that assessment (I'm not like that at all!!!!!!), but I'm pretty sure the science of it is on my side. ;)
Really??

I disagreed with you and pointed out why I don't believe she broke her oath, and at this point of time, she is putting the order before any relationship.

That makes me a misogynist?

I have no idea how you made that jump. She lies to MC for a very long time and refuses to apologise, so I hate all women?

Some form of apology and remorse would change things. Instead she gets defensive and says "Don't you dare judge me, you know nothing about us." I'd be just as pissed if MC was the one doing it.

These are the reasons I don't like her very much. Not because I hate women.

I am just about the furtherest you can get. When my eldest was 10, my wife went to work and I became a house husband to raise the kids. I have absolutely no problem with strong women. To say I hate women, because I disagree with you and don't like the behavior one woman's behavior is just offensive.
 

Dessolos

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Jul 25, 2017
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lol what is up with this thread and when people talk about why they don't like Kaija seems alot of time there is always one person that says they are a misogynist like wtf. I disagree with the hate she gets personally but it's very understandable why many do dislike her.
 

MiltonPowers

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lol what is up with this thread and when people talk about why they don't like Kaija seems alot of time there is always one person that says they are a misogynist like wtf. I disagree with the hate she gets personally but it's very understandable why many do dislike her.
I don't hate her, and even said I was happy if she was given a believable redemption path. Besides you know I only make Kaija comments to stir up you and Xapi. :ROFLMAO:
 
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AlexMpog

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lol what is up with this thread and when people talk about why they don't like Kaija seems alot of time there is always one person that says they are a misogynist like wtf. I disagree with the hate she gets personally but it's very understandable why many do dislike her.
I don't hate her. I just don't find her trustworthy.

As it has been said, duty comes first, hypothetically, if her masters for some reason found MC dangerous to them and told her to get rid of him, just hypothetically, well...
I am exaggerating of course but you get the point.
And so far nothing has changed, duty still comes first, it's neither bad or good, it is just what it is.
 

DaFinker

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Apr 24, 2024
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Really??

I disagreed with you and pointed out why I don't believe she broke her oath, and at this point of time, she is putting the order before any relationship.

That makes me a misogynist?

I have no idea how you made that jump. She lies to MC for a very long time and refuses to apologise, so I hate all women?

Some form of apology and remorse would change things. Instead she gets defensive and says "Don't you dare judge me, you know nothing about us." I'd be just as pissed if MC was the one doing it.

These are the reasons I don't like her very much. Not because I hate women.

I am just about the furtherest you can get. When my eldest was 10, my wife went to work and I became a house husband to raise the kids. I have absolutely no problem with strong women. To say I hate women, because I disagree with you and don't like the behavior one woman's behavior is just offensive.
lol what is up with this thread and when people talk about why they don't like Kaija seems alot of time there is always one person that says they are a misogynist like wtf. I disagree with the hate she gets personally but it's very understandable why many do dislike her.
Maybe "misogyny" is the wrong word - too strong. Chauvinism might be better.

Regardless, it's an ingrained belief that, as men, we have a particular role and it can rustle our jimmies if that role is usurped in any way, even for our own good. The closer the person is to us that usurps that role and our belief that only we should make decisions about what we should know and what is best for us and our well being, the more we get rustled. However, we also believe that we are capable of making those decisions on behalf of someone else - particularly "our" women.

Think about it before you reject it out of hand - it's a well documented part of the male psyche. It's what drives us to arm ourselves to protect "our women" and families. If you don't believe it, do some reading on the psychological make up of men and women and our pre-programmed tendencies. They're real, whether you want to acknowledge them or not, and they impact our reactions to the things that happen to and around us. It isn't something that's malicious or evil, per se, but it can lead to us having a real hissy fit when we're left out of the loop about something that impacts us and can shade our reaction to the person that does that "to" us, ranging from feelings of disappointment to feelings of betrayal, and other points in between.

My reaction is disappointed understanding; that seems to be close to Dessolos reaction as well; Milton749, and many others, went for full-on betrayal. If she'd been fucking our best friend while in a relationship with us, that's betrayal; trying to protect us and help us have our best possible life - that's something that should be forgivable. I know Milt will still disagree - you don't see yourself in those terms and don't think that petty side is part of you, but it's part of all of us. When we acknowledge it, we can better deal with it. Or not.
 

Dessolos

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Jul 25, 2017
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I don't hate her. I just don't find her trustworthy.

As it has been said, duty comes first, hypothetically, if her masters for some reason found MC dangerous to them and told her to get rid of him, just hypothetically, well...
I am exaggerating of course but you get the point.
And so far nothing has changed, duty still comes first, it's neither bad or good, it is just what it is.
that hypothetical situation is something id think she would disobey her loyalty to the templars for the MC if on the love path at least. I think she is only loyal up until the MC is in danger. But I get it why many don't trust her. For me she is trustworthy and not at the same time. I think she is trustworthy in her personal life but when it comes duty not so much at least until the MC is in danger. Which is why I feel she might slowly change how loyal she is over time.
 

xapican

Devoted Member
May 11, 2020
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I don't hate her. I just don't find her trustworthy.

As it has been said, duty comes first, hypothetically, if her masters for some reason found MC dangerous to them and told her to get rid of him, just hypothetically, well...
I am exaggerating of course but you get the point.
And so far nothing has changed, duty still comes first, it's neither bad or good, it is just what it is.
That would be on the love path a nice turn, and would throw her into a deep conflict. for all that matters.
Trust? I think we can only trust our self and only to a certain point.
I respect the opinions of others, but how Desoulos said disagree with all the hate what she recieves,
 

xapican

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Milton749 ; The Masterpiece of Ceolag is that this character has 3 different paths, Love, Ally, Hate. and that in order to score with another LI you must play Hate or Ally path, depending with whom you want to score.
That is what makes me wonder how a lot of players say She is the Villain, when really is the player who decides how she reacts to the differnt situations.
 
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Dr.TSoni

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May 20, 2022
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lol what is up with this thread and when people talk about why they don't like Kaija seems alot of time there is always one person that says they are a misogynist like wtf. I disagree with the hate she gets personally but it's very understandable why many do dislike her.
Personally I don't think it's misogyny, but it's more related to the vision one has of the Templars
 

MiltonPowers

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Maybe "misogyny" is the wrong word - too strong. Chauvinism might be better.

Regardless, it's an ingrained belief that, as men, we have a particular role and it can rustle our jimmies if that role is usurped in any way, even for our own good. The closer the person is to us that usurps that role and our belief that only we should make decisions about what we should know and what is best for us and our well being, the more we get rustled. However, we also believe that we are capable of making those decisions on behalf of someone else - particularly "our" women.

Think about it before you reject it out of hand - it's a well documented part of the male psyche. It's what drives us to arm ourselves to protect "our women" and families. If you don't believe it, do some reading on the psychological make up of men and women and our pre-programmed tendencies. They're real, whether you want to acknowledge them or not, and they impact our reactions to the things that happen to and around us. It isn't something that's malicious or evil, per se, but it can lead to us having a real hissy fit when we're left out of the loop about something that impacts us and can shade our reaction to the person that does that "to" us, ranging from feelings of disappointment to feelings of betrayal, and other points in between.

My reaction is disappointed understanding; that seems to be close to Dessolos reaction as well; Milton749, and many others, went for full-on betrayal. If she'd been fucking our best friend while in a relationship with us, that's betrayal; trying to protect us and help us have our best possible life - that's something that should be forgivable. I know Milt will still disagree - you don't see yourself in those terms and don't think that petty side is part of you, but it's part of all of us. When we acknowledge it, we can better deal with it. Or not.
I understand psychology and I am able to recognise the difference. I am not rejecting anything out of hand, but you are using an argument of the male protection psyche has nothing to do with this conversation. It appears you just wrote me off as a misogynist/chauvinist and didn't read what I wrote.

You didn't address a single point as to why I don't trust her or like her very much, instead focused on that I must hate women or my desire to protect women. But it's not about men & women.

I will try again to make it very clear. I do not trust her because she lied for many, many years and cannot apologise for it and is indignant when called upon it. It does not matter that she is female. She could be male or alien, I would not trust that person.

The fact that she came to save MC, does not prove she has changed (yet), but as I said, it might still happen, but I will not trust her until she proves trustworthy. You say it should be forgivable and I agree, it probably should be, but forgiveness requires remorse and apology, Kaija has done neither (yet).

I do not hate her (and have said earlier), I am happy to be friends with her and utilize her skills and experience in the Neverwhere.

I don't know what else I can say, cause if I don't acknowledge I have a problem to deal with, then I have a problem.
 
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MiltonPowers

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Milton749 ; The Masterpiece of Ceolag is that this character has 3 different paths, Love, Ally, Hate. and that in order to score with another LI you must play Hate or Ally path, depending with whom you want to score.
That is what makes me wonder how a lot of players say She is the Villain, when really is the player who decides how she reacts to the differnt situations.
Couldn't agree more Xapi. A character that evokes such emotion is a masterpiece of writing. She is an amazing character (even if I don't trust her yet ;) )

But, when you say the player decides, does that mean if you say you still want to be with her, Kaija is apologetic and remorseful? Just curious what is different on that path. I could go play it myself, but I'd be interested in your opinion, before I play a Kaija path.
 

Joshy92

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Mar 25, 2021
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If people want to bitch about Kaija so much they should at least play her love path to better understand things first.
 

hysepReC

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If people want to bitch about Kaija so much they should at least play her love path to better understand things first.
I ended up on her "friends" path on my first playthrough and it's forever tainted her as a LI for me. :HideThePain:

If she hadn't started out as the MC's girlfriend then she would be much more tolerable. I don't see why she had to fake a relationship with him when they were already close friends.
 
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Dessolos

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Jul 25, 2017
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I ended up on her "friends" path on my first playthrough and it's forever tainted her as a LI for me. :HideThePain:

If she hadn't started out as the MC's girlfriend then she would be much more tolerable. I don't see why she had to fake a relationship with him when they were already close friends.
cause the Templars ordered her to isn't anything more than that. That is where it also differs a bit depending on your path. On the love path she fought against the order and only became the MC's GF later when she wanted if I recall correctly.
 
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hysepReC

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cause the Templars ordered her to isn't anything more than that. That is where it also differs a bit depending on your path. On the love path she fought against the order and only became the MC's GF later when she wanted if I recall correctly.
As far as I remember, Kaija started dating the MC because she thought it would make her job easier, on both paths. The only difference is that she developed romantic feelings for him on the love path.
 
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4.50 star(s) 57 Votes