VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[nitkonikic]

I get the part abut brainwashing, agree on 100%... buuuut what about some common sense, like simple things - what is bad and what is not, she is an adult and it's not like she spent her whole life in a tower or where ever locked out from the world.

She literally admits that this whole fake relationship made her mission easier, it was very convenient and the way she says it - is soooo... I dunno like something so usual and common, damn, that was so fucking off putting, and her cold behaviour after - like mission is accomplished - bye bye)) I am still gonna play her other paths to see the difference but I don't keep my hopes up.

Thus last part of my post.
She lives as part of real world, same as MC.
She is not closed inside temple/castle with no access to outer world.
She needs to use her own brain and recognize the faults.

Non-love path shows her being literally unable to recognize the massive fuckup that is seducing someone (for few fucking years!!!) to make a job easy. That goes beyond brainwashing, that's on her.

So while I strongly recommend playing high-score Kaija route, I will never run full romance path with her.

High-score (misses 1-2 points only) doesn't mix with any other girl so far, so you can run it alongside one of other girls.
Don't need to romance her at all, just do all friendly options and don't go for kiss on 1-2 occassions where it's possible.

There is a lot of personality in Kaija, shame to miss it.

 

[Tremonia]

Being loyal to the templars = brainwashing

That makes her a victim.

Y'all will make any excuses for her.

Understanding her isn't the same as excusing her.

I can't anymore, you win.

A discussion isn't a fight. When you think in terms of win and lose you've already lost in a way. Just saying.

 

[Maviarab]

They still lied to you your whole life, neither did they prepare the MC/Jess for anything

because they wanted you not to be part, of that world where you could get killed in a skirmish with Alfars or Hellspawns , ambushed by some shaddy and powerfull organiztions, or Neverwhere drug cartells.

Were they doing it out of a mistaken ideal of protection or because they don't respect you?

And yet....we almost end up dead...ion the fucking streets...with a hole in our head...like a damn dog. Yeah, thanks mom/dad....

almost like they were a cult

The real Templars were really.


Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags, only Linnae was against the relationship. Only...>Linnae....dad was only against it if you are all flowers and pretty unicorns with kaija and your pops....

Let that sink in....

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags, only Linnae was against the relationship. Only...>Linnae....dad was only against it if you are all flowers and pretty unicorns with kaija and your pops....

Let that sink in....

Really? I hadn't noticed

 

[motseer]

And yet....we almost end up dead...ion the fucking streets...with a hole in our head...like a damn dog. Yeah, thanks mom/dad....

The real Templars were really.


Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags, only Linnae was against the relationship. Only...>Linnae....dad was only against it if you are all flowers and pretty unicorns with kaija and your pops....

Let that sink in....

Yep, in my heart of hearts, I absolutely agree. There are as many reasons as there are people involved for hiding the truth from MC and his sister and yet, the thing they feared most, still happened. He was almost killed. There was only one difference between the two scenarios. Since he was ignorant of the situation, he was confused and unprepared when it happened.

 

[xapican]

The real Templars were really.

Sorry, might correct you in that one, they were an order, formed from the cisterzians, nowadays they are an filantropic organization like "Rotary" "Lions" "Freemasons" (these were the builders from their castells) "Rosicruzianum"
The acusation that they were a cult, was brought up by the French King to size their treasure, and get them excomunated from the church.

 

[xapican]

Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags,

Don't get the messege, what do you mean ?

 

[Raziel_8]

I honestly kind of got the impression Kaija and other templars that grew up and trained with them from a young age were most likely brainwashed to some extent , almost like they were a cult. Otherwise it's hard for me to understand the loyalty someone like Kaija would have to the templars.

Leaving my utter disdain for the templars aside for some moments...

Hm, i wouldn't necessarily say brainwashed, i think it's more of a natural development, at least mostly.
As you said, she grew up with them, trained, fought, bleed with them, a shared cause. I think most people in that situation would have developed a strong feeling of loyalty, comradery and group identity.
That the whole thing is a secret organization just strengthen these aspects, as they really are the only people you can be fully open with, trust and understand what you are going through. This isn't really reserved for cults.

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

I was similar, until i wasn't.
At one point it was just enough and needed to do what is good for me, cutting people off which aren't is healthy imo.
Also it doesn't really need to be a permanent thing, some people do have the capability or will to change...like some of my family, needed a decade, but it is a far better and healthier relationship we have now...for the rest, i don't miss them.

 

[pitao]

Don't get the messege, what do you mean ?

There is no need to get the message, it is just a player opinion biased by their own experiences and view of the world, I respect it but I have a completely different (and also biased) view and experience in such matters. Holding grudges/hate and imagining what would happen if their decision have been different and being over confrontational never leads to good outcomes and in that I completely agree with sis, having an open mind and leaving the door open seems imho a much better path for everyone involved, after all the past can't be changed, only the future can. That doesn't mean "we" can't get hurt or angry by those decisions, but hate never, too much of a strong word in this situation.
With that said I went in 1 of my 5 save paths being confrontational and burning the bridges of reconciliation but just by pure curiosity of what that path will lead in terms of content in upcoming updates.

Edit : Sometimes I wish we had a "Facepalm" post reaction instead of "Wow" for some oversimplistic ignorant remarks I see in this threads I don't even see the point to reply to them, it would just end up in a pointless confrontation discussion because we both are too stubborn to let go of our views

 

[SamualHand]

#RelationshipAdvice
View attachment 3955535

It's called Alpha!

 

[Maviarab]

Sorry, might correct you in that one, they were an order, formed from the cisterzians, nowadays they are an filantropic organization like "Rotary" "Lions" "Freemasons" (these were the builders from their castells) "Rosicruzianum"
The acusation that they were a cult, was brought up by the French King to size their treasure, and get them excomunated from the church.

The word 'cult' can be used to describe many things. Templars...religion...idiots in a farm house with a suicide pact....

The finer details matter little in reality as they all have one common denominator. Absolute faith and belief in what they are pushing.

Don't get the messege, what do you mean ?

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[nitkonikic]

There is no need to get the message, it is just a player opinion biased by their own experiences and view of the world, I respect it but I have a completely different (and also biased) view and experience in such matters. Holding grudges/hate and imagining what would happen if their decision have been different and being over confrontational never leads to good outcomes and in that I completely agree with sis, having an open mind and leaving the door open seems imho a much better path for everyone involved, after all the past can't be changed, only the future can. That doesn't mean "we" can't get hurt or angry by those decisions, but hate never, too much of a strong word in this situation.
With that said I went in 1 of my 5 save paths being confrontational and burning the bridges of reconciliation but just by pure curiosity of what that path will lead in terms of content in upcoming updates.

Edit : Sometimes I wish we had a "Facepalm" post reaction instead of "Wow" for some oversimplistic ignorant remarks I see in this threads I don't even see the point to reply to them, it would just end up in a pointless confrontation discussion because we both are too stubborn to let go of our views

Confrontations are different from letting go.
Sure, I went, and always will, take that choice while talking to parents.

There is nothing good from being in toxic relationship. In my personal life (as in, actual life), I broke my longest and best friendship over my ex-friend being all kinds of wrong (racist, sexist, list goes on).
My life blossomed since breaking that friendship and leaving him in the past.

Now, did I argue with him? No.

But game, so far at least, wouldn't let me break relations with family unless it's confrontational.
I went 3-2 on my pick-how-you-feel-not-points choice.

MCs family was insanely toxic for his life, in some circumstances thry would have mentally scar him for life.
They valued their job over their son.

It is not even hatred (though I personally would absolutely feel it), it's moving on with life.
It's choosing to live a life where Templars don't dictate his job, his girlfriend and his future prospects.
It's choosing to live own life, instead of a fake, gifted one.

I completely understand why some people would be forgiving to them, not burn bridges (always an extreme, final step), but I simply fail to see why feeling hatred towards someone who fucked up your life beyond repair is seen as facepalm worthy.

Kari's advice was perfect in this chapter. MC wants to live life of his own. So go and do it. Elves were first step. Human world, job and so on is next.
Will it be hard, messed up and so on? Sure.
But will he be able to create something honest? I believe that chance far outweighs the risks of distancing himself from (strongly proven) toxic family environment.

 

[Maviarab]

With regards to the parents, I can't recall now (and can't find the post) who mentioned earlier about if not for being chased by the mercs, would we have ever found out? It's an interesting and I feel important question to ask.

So picture this:

Mom still calls in a panic, dad been kidnapped etc. Foot soldier picks us up....we have a nice quiet and boring drive back to parents house. Then what? Just exactly how much would mom have spilled the beans then (assuming Kaija was not there as we were never ambushed and almost killed etc etc). It does make you wonder if we'd have just got a variation of the truth....

I also agree with the poster (was it GoA?) about their lame excuses and in the confrontational response from the MC even says as much, just one feeble excuse after another, almost like they were looking for reasons to not say anything. They can excuse themselves all they want (along with us as the players) but their inaction, their lies (well ok, not specifically lies as such but their omission of the truth) directly led to us almost being killed in the street.

Sorry, but wherever you lie on your opinion of them, that's something that really cannot be so easily forgotten, nor forgiven. Suppose Kaija had not made it in time? Oh Sorry Jess, you're brother died in a shootout on the street....because...well...you see....once upon a time....(or would they have hid the truth of our death from her....).

 

[xapican]

because we both are too stubborn to let go of our views

that sounds like a years old marriage
No he was hinting that depending on how you played Kaija, and the intersting aspect is that the chaos points raise if you are confrontational with both, which is players right to do so, I'm a LEP person, (Limited English Proeficiency) so somtimes it is hard to get the implication on some coments or I don't get the conveyed message,
Also, sice I'm studying english and spanish (Lingustic) I'm somewhat nitpicky with Words, or to say it I have sometimes different associations to comon used words.
e.g.: Cult = I have it strongly asociated, with Secta (spanish) or Sekte (german) and how he pointed out in everyday speech it is used to describe a lot of things (here also adds that I did resarch a lot of the "Hermetic Orders" like Knight Templars, Zion Priorate, Teutonic Knights, Rosicruzianums, and Assasins, etc. and their modern forms as a Lodge ) but let's stay on topic.
I did not take in account that Cathoic church or the Anglican Church also can be defined as an "cult" that is all.
Edit: just saw Mavriarabs post, above: just to consider MC got 2 intents of killing, one being the above mentioned mercs, and the other the "succubus" which Kari avoided by apearing.
This paired with the Dialoge of the Father, saying, that there are some Corrupted Members inside the "organization" is more than clear who looked away as the succubos entered this world, (Templars are suposed to be the Gatekeepers)

 

[pitao]

I simply fail to see why feeling hatred towards someone who fucked up your life beyond repair is seen as facepalm worthy

It wasn't directed at you, I agree with most you say and said before, not all but that is normal. You explain your point of view with logic arguments. It was directed to a post above yours and bellow mine after I posted it, instead of wasting a post I simply edited it

I did not take in account that Cathoic church or the Anglican Church also can be defined as an "cult" that is all.

They aren't, well maybe in popular culture of our days some say it is the same. A cult seeks secrecy and usually aims specific target followers and "brainwash" them. A religion probably have similar goals but it is known openly by the society and seeks as many followers they can. But there is much more about it I won't go further because this is way way off topic and kind of pointless.
So some don't say I'm biased I'm completely non religious even though I had a catholic upbringing as most people here in Portugal. But I respect each one faith beliefs.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

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I think it's due to how the MC in one version is calmer and the father can admit failure, while in the other the fear that mentioning himself could further worsen the relationship.

With regards to the parents, I can't recall now (and can't find the post) who mentioned earlier about if not for being chased by the mercs, would we have ever found out? It's an interesting and I feel important question to ask.

So picture this:

Mom still calls in a panic, dad been kidnapped etc. Foot soldier picks us up....we have a nice quiet and boring drive back to parents house. Then what? Just exactly how much would mom have spilled the beans then (assuming Kaija was not there as we were never ambushed and almost killed etc etc). It does make you wonder if we'd have just got a variation of the truth....

I also agree with the poster (was it GoA?) about their lame excuses and in the confrontational response from the MC even says as much, just one feeble excuse after another, almost like they were looking for reasons to not say anything. They can excuse themselves all they want (along with us as the players) but their inaction, their lies (well ok, not specifically lies as such but their omission of the truth) directly led to us almost being killed in the street.

Sorry, but wherever you lie on your opinion of them, that's something that really cannot be so easily forgotten, nor forgiven. Suppose Kaija had not made it in time? Oh Sorry Jess, you're brother died in a shootout on the street....because...well...you see....once upon a time....

I still think they believe in what the Templars do but don't want that life for their children.

 

[nitkonikic]

It wasn't directed at you, I agree with most you say and said before, not all but that is normal. You explain your point of view with logic arguments. It was directed to a post above yours and bellow mine after I posted it, instead of wasting a post I simply edited it

Oh I know, don't you worry, just bored out of my mind currently and decided to reply to kill some time XD

Granted, I do wish there was option to burn bridges with family despite non-confrontational option selection.

Say 3-2 in favour of calm answers, then in calm manner tell them they fucked up too much and he can't /isn't willing to forgive, instead of giving sister "pleasure" of notifying parents he's done with them.

 

[Maviarab]

I think it's due to how the MC in one version is calmer and the father can admit failure, while in the other the fear that mentioning himself could further worsen the relationship.

While I don't see it that way, that is certainly a possibility I'll agree, you may have something there Dr. Given the whole conversation though and how point dependant that dialogue is, I still see is it on that pathing branch, he was for it also.

I still think they believe in what the Templars do but don't want that life for their children.

I see it as they are only sorry and spill the beans because of what happened. Bit like, not sorry for cheating, just sorry you got caught type of thing.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

I see it as they are only sorry and spill the beans because of what happened. Bit like, not sorry for cheating, just sorry you got caught type of thing.

It is an eventuality that we cannot exclude, fortunately with multiple routes we can explore multiple approaches

 

[Maviarab]

It is an eventuality that we cannot exclude, fortunately with multiple routes we can explore multiple approaches

Regardless of the route, the same things happen.

1. Dad still kidnapped.
2. We still almost killed in the street.
3. They very sorry for keeping it from us.

Nothing changes there at all. So again, if dad had not been nabbed, if we had not been almost killed in a street shootout....just how long would they have kept it from us, intentionally....intentionally keeping us in the dark despite the danger we are unknowingly in (because, screw Kaija as a bodyguard, she never damn well around...that is a fact (already confirmed within the story and already causing an issue). And yes, we are unknowingly in danger due to them...fact presented within the story, as we apparently need a bodyguard....

Which conveniently leads to a second question: Is she a bodyguard first or a Templar foot soldier first?

Unfortunately, when you build a house on a pack of lies and a deck of cards....expect it to come tumbling down...