VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Honestly, I'm going to have to disagree on this one: she IS in a position to lecture him (*assuming* the MC insisted on no step back with her). What he did was profoundly stupid, and unlike Kaija he can't blame his poor decision making on Templar leadership. Following orders is hardly a perfect excuse, but it is AN excuse, and Kaija was under direct orders on what she could tell the MC. He went off on a potential suicide mission on a lark, without even leaving her a letter!

That's an astonishingly callous way to treat a woman he just reassured us all he (supposedly) cares about, all the more so because he won't stop bitching about his parents keeping him in the dark. Kaija absolutely should throw that back in his face. It by no means excuses her own failings, but she is well within her rights to expect better treatment from the MC if he wants to develop a serious relationship with her. Ideally this will be an opportunity for the two to figure out (on their own, free from outside interference) what they owe each other going forward.

Obviously if the MC wants to start over with Kaija this is not a real a problem, and if he told her to pound sand then his unannounced vacation is entirely consistent in that attitude towards her. I'm only talking about the Kaija-devotee path when I say she should give him an earful.

We may have to agree to disagree. The MC isn't a Templar and not beholden to them. Normally I would agree he should not have run off without telling his partner and loathe secrets in relationships. In saying that, after what his 'beloved' and parents have put him through, he hardly owes them an explanation for anything at the moment. They have no right to lecture him about anything after what they did to him. They need to be supportive until he can comes to terms with things and to a place where he can trust them again, assuming he ever can. They broke the trust not the MC, they need to earn it back before the MC needs report his actions to them as far as I'm concerned.

Besides Kari is the instigator of the MC's excursion. I have no doubt she passed that info on to her Templar friends after he left. Perhaps Linnae and the others were involved in it.

In theory its nice to think everything with just move on all loving and roses. Having been in a similar situation, that is not how it works, humans have emotions and when a ton of shit is dropped on them they need to come to terms with it before the offenders take to lecturing them for their actions. As I said we may need to agree to disagree.

 

[xapican]

Oh I thought MC had send a message to them, as Medb suggested ?

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Oh I thought MC had send a message to them, as Medb suggested ?

He did. Plus Kari had a hand in it so I would expect she would pass that on to the Templars. I wouldn't be surprised if Linnae had a hand in it as well.

 

[Maviarab]

Oh I thought MC had send a message to them, as Medb suggested ?

Well, we never actually saw that nor was it actually confirmed. She just said she could organise it.

 

[xapican]

He did. Plus Kari had a hand in it so I would expect she would pass that on to the Templars. I wouldn't be surprised if Linnae had a hand in it as well.

I guess you are over estimating, Karis involvement with the Templars, In the scene In the Headquarters the interaction, seemed to be friendly but with certain profesional distance, Also in the Pub she says clearly she has another shedule than the Templars, Like she was told to go there and testify,

Well, we never actually saw that nor was it actually confirmed. She just said she could organise it.

Although you are right and it is a fact what you stated,
somehow the way MC insisted in giving a message that all is ok, make me think that , he did. Another plot twist could be that Finn died trying to deliver said message but that would be too much drama i guess

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Well, we never actually saw that nor was it actually confirmed. She just said she could organise it.

I've cracked it. I'm waiting for the Eagle and the Assassins to roll up. They serve the light by being hidden in the shadows or words to that effect. It's been a while since I played Assassins Creed. The Assassins are starting a war with the elves to exterminate them and save humanity. What do you think?

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I guess you are over estimating, Karis involvement with the Templars, In the scene In the Headquarters the interaction, seemed to be friendly but with certain profesional distance, Also in the Pub she says clearly she has another shedule than the Templars, Like she was told to go there and testify,

Although you are right and it is a fact what you stated,
somehow the way MC insisted in giving a message that all is ok, make me think that , he did. Another plot twist could be that Finn died trying to deliver said message but that would be too much drama i guess

I thought Kari seemed pretty friendly with the Templars. Bugger, I have to go back again and see now.

 

[ename144]

We may have to agree to disagree. The MC isn't a Templar and not beholden to them. Normally I would agree he should not have run off without telling his partner and loathe secrets in relationships. In saying that, after what his 'beloved' and parents have put him through, he hardly owes them an explanation for anything at the moment. They have no right to lecture him about anything after what they did to him. They need to be supportive until he can comes to terms with things and to a place where he can trust them again, assuming he ever can. They broke the trust not the MC, they need to earn it back before the MC needs report his actions to them as far as I'm concerned.

Besides Kari is the instigator of the MC's excursion. I have no doubt she passed that info on to her Templar friends after he left. Perhaps Linnae and the others were involved in it.

In theory its nice to think everything with just move on all loving and roses. Having been in a similar situation, that is not how it works, humans have emotions and when a ton of shit is dropped on them they need to come to terms with it before the offenders take to lecturing them for their actions. As I said we may need to agree to disagree.

It seems we will have to agree to disagree. As you say humans have emotions, but that cuts both ways. Kaija has her own shit to deal with too, and having the MC recklessly run off without a word only adds to it. If the MC needed space so badly he can't countenance the thought of letting Kaija in on his plans then he had no business claiming he wanted a meaningful relationship with her. IMHO, of course.

Also, I think you may be putting too much trust in Kari's benevolence. Valkyries aren't malevolent, but they aren't philanthropists, either. I don't think it's coincidence that she was only too happy to wax on about visiting the elves but got tight-lipped the instant her own history was questioned. She had her own agenda, which may or may not be helped by cluing the Templars in on what the MC was up to.

Oh I thought MC had send a message to them, as Medb suggested ?

As I understood it, Medb suggested the MC record a message to his family on his phone, then an Alfar messager would deliver that phone to the Templars. I'm not really sure how that would work in practice, but since the MC went along with it I assume that isn't just a case of Medb being ignorant of how smartphones work.

Presumably that message was delivered since the MC later comments about needing to return in a timely manner "even if everyone knows where I am" when discussing how long his training would take with Finnabair. And I doubt Finnabair herself was the messenger since that would mean the Alfar waited several days (Earth time) to send the message, largely defeating the purpose of sending said message in the first place.

 

[xapican]

nd I doubt Finnabair herself was the messenger since that would mean the Alfar waited several days (Earth time) to send the message, largely defeating the purpose of sending said message in the first place.

was more as a wild guess a thought spoken out loud, very improbable but within the range, too much drama as I said.
about the message being deliverd, Templar have a headquarter in Neverwhere, so they send a Messenger there, would be the logical conclusion.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

It seems we will have to agree to disagree. As you say humans have emotions, but that cuts both ways. Kaija has her own shit to deal with too, and having the MC recklessly run off without a word only adds to it. If the MC needed space so badly he can't countenance the thought of letting Kaija in on his plans then he had no business claiming he wanted a meaningful relationship with her. IMHO, of course.

Also, I think you may be putting too much trust in Kari's benevolence. Valkyries aren't malevolent, but they aren't philanthropists, either. I don't think it's coincidence that she was only too happy to wax on about visiting the elves but got tight-lipped the instant her own history was questioned. She had her own agenda, which may or may not be helped by cluing the Templars in on what the MC was up to.

You are probably right re-Kari. I thought she had an amicable relationship to the Templars. She did tell them about the succubus, seem to be on good terms to me, but perhaps not.

Re-MC's decision to run off, I can only talk from own experience of having my wife and family have a huge secret they kept from me. When i found out I didn't want to see them, talk to them or want them lecturing me on what I should and shouldn't do (They tried). I wanted a good relationship with all of them, but it took some time before I was ready to confide in any of them again. I still wanted a good relationship with them all. I had kids with my wife. I didn't want to break up my family. I certainly didn't want to see her for a while, let alone report my every movement to her. in hindsight I should have the left the lot of them behind and walked away except for my mother. I was niave back then.

Anyway, no hard feelings towards you, we are just approaching it from different places.

 

[xapican]

Well, to be fair, the message thing, (except, on Kaija love path) gave me more the impression it was for his sister, (Fiona or Elea if on any of those paths) than for his parents and Kaija, even if you didn't burn the briges.
MC is aware Templars are monitoring him, although maybe a bit more lax since the first immediate danger is over.
anyway no point in going in details, since it is pretty vague in the VN itself.
To support GOA s angle, yes, If it were me and even I didn't cut ties to my family, I would answer to Kaija or my parents asking me where I was, with a " is not your bussines"

 

[Tremonia]

Well, we never actually saw that nor was it actually confirmed. She just said she could organise it.

Medb is an Álfar. Given words means a lot for them. At least that's what the story tells us. When Medb says she'll pass the message/phone, it'll happen.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Medb is an Álfar. Given words means a lot for them. At least that's what the story tells us. When Medb says she'll pass the message/phone, it'll happen.

I agree.

I also think it is quite within Medb's character to gloat a bit, like her adding a video introduction:

'Have you seen the Grandmaster's son? I have...

You seem to like all your secrets

How's that working for you?*'

* Medb is quoting Dr. Phil since she watches his show when she is bored, which explains some of her disgust with humanity... thank God she can't get The Jerry Springer Show on the Alfar equivalent of Roku.


Cheers!!

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I agree.

I also think it is quite within Medb's character to gloat a bit, like her adding a video introduction:

'Have you seen the Grandmaster's son? I have...

You seem to like all your secrets

How's that working for you?*'

* Medb is quoting Dr. Phil since she watches his show when she is bored, which explains some of her disgust with humanity... thank God she can't get The Jerry Springer Show on the Alfar equivalent of Roku.


Cheers!!

The No1 channel in the Elven capital is probably the Human Reality Channel with Jerry Springer, Maury Povich and all the other outstanding TV shows showing the cream of human society. Would explain a lot of hatred.

 

[Tremonia]

The No1 channel in the Elven capital is probably the Human Reality Channel with Jerry Springer, Maury Povich and all the other outstanding TV shows showing the cream of human society. Would explain a lot of hatred.

Not only would it explain it. It would justify all the hate.

 

[HornyyPussy]

Not only would it explain it. It would justify all the hate.

Yeah, if that's the human standard I may join the Elf's. (I might anyway after what happened to Finn...)

 

[ename144]

You are probably right re-Kari. I thought she had an amicable relationship to the Templars. She did tell them about the succubus, seem to be on good terms to me, but perhaps not.

Kari certainly doesn't have a bad relationship with the Templars, but there does seem to be a certain distance to it. Note how quickly Linnae tells the MC to stop pestering Kari despite the brevity of the conversation and the fact Kari was quite engaged in it. It definitely gives me the vibe that Kari and the Templars are co-belligerents more than they are proper allies.

Re-MC's decision to run off, I can only talk from own experience of having my wife and family have a huge secret they kept from me. When i found out I didn't want to see them, talk to them or want them lecturing me on what I should and shouldn't do (They tried). I wanted a good relationship with all of them, but it took some time before I was ready to confide in any of them again. I still wanted a good relationship with them all. I had kids with my wife. I didn't want to break up my family. I certainly didn't want to see her for a while, let alone report my every movement to her. in hindsight I should have the left the lot of them behind and walked away except for my mother. I was niave back then.

Anyway, no hard feelings towards you, we are just approaching it from different places.

Indeed, and I certainly don't mean to imply Kaija has some universal right to berate the MC, much less to throw shade on your own experience. I don't blame you for distrusting her after the whole Templar thing came out, and Kaija has no cause to scold the MC if he told her he needed space from her and his parents; at best she should politely suggest he took an unnecessarily large risk.

But that's why I said it only makes sense for her to lay into the MC if he told her he DIDN'T want space from her.

Rightly or wrongly, an MC who tells Kaija he wants to be with her is implicitly forgiving her transgressions and saying she's an important part of his life. That's not really compatible with telling her to mind her own business when the MC gets back from his impromptu vacation with a group that just declared war on Kaija. Hence why I feel like she SHOULD give him a piece of her mind when he gets back, because he's giving her very mixed signals.

Since it sounds to me like you would never pick the "No step back" choice when discussing the MC's future with Kaija, this wouldn't be an issue on your playthrough. Feel free to give Kaija the stink eye if she complains about keeping her in the dark. Hopefully the game will give us the opportunity for both approaches depending on our past choices.

 

[Maviarab]

Another plot twist could be that Finn died trying to deliver said message but that would be too much drama i guess

He'd been there 3 weeks though (so ok..less Earth time)...can't see that being the reason.

I've cracked it. I'm waiting for the Eagle and the Assassins to roll up. They serve the light by being hidden in the shadows or words to that effect. It's been a while since I played Assassins Creed. The Assassins are starting a war with the elves to exterminate them and save humanity. What do you think?

Certainly possible.

Medb is an Álfar. Given words means a lot for them. At least that's what the story tells us. When Medb says she'll pass the message/phone, it'll happen.

Never said it didn't....only that we didn't see it....

 

[Adhdclassic]

Since creatures are popping up that most thought was gone or are acting out of character. What's the chances that the dark elves are behind all of this.

 

[xapican]

Since creatures are popping up that most thought was gone or are acting out of character. What's the chances that the dark elves are behind all of this.

a good one, I think, anyway they aren't acting alone for all matters.
I got curious about Fionas Family, to be honest, just hope next update sheds a bit of light into that part of the story