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VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

4.40 star(s) 56 Votes
Dec 29, 2018
447
2,675
Yeah, if I remember correctly, the only reason MC had any protection at all is because Ailill extended him "guest" status until he delivered his message to Medb, with the understanding that he'd essentially be on his own from there. Obviously, Medb could have chosen to extend that protection, but she didn't.
She wasn't given the chance, as Finnabair drew her sword and slashed at the throat of their guest as soon as Medb asked Ailill what we meant by being a guest. I take that as a sign that Finnabair knew that he not only could've still been treated as a guest, but that he should've and would've been treated as such if Ailill were given a chance to explain thing to Medb.

But even if the offer of hospitality ended as soon as the meeting with Medb concluded, we're still talking about cold-blooded murder here by Finnabair. They don't get to pretend that it's okay because they didn't specifically promise not to murder you. What do you suppose would've happened if the Templars murdered Medb as soon as she had finished delivering her demands about the hostage? Do you think that the elves would've just shrugged their shoulders and been all "aw shucks, that's too bad... but it's all Medb's fault for going there." Or do you think that they would've called the Templars a bunch of cowardly dishonourable bastards?
 

Rehwyn

Active Member
Apr 10, 2024
763
1,204
She wasn't given the chance, as Finnabair drew her sword and slashed at the throat of their guest as soon as Medb asked Ailill what we meant by being a guest. I take that as a sign that Finnabair knew that he not only could've still been treated as a guest, but that he should've and would've been treated as such if Ailill were given a chance to explain thing to Medb.

But even if the offer of hospitality ended as soon as the meeting with Medb concluded, we're still talking about cold-blooded murder here by Finnabair. They don't get to pretend that it's okay because they didn't specifically promise not to murder you. What do you suppose would've happened if the Templars murdered Medb as soon as she had finished delivering her demands about the hostage? Do you think that the elves would've just shrugged their shoulders and been all "aw shucks, that's too bad... but it's all Medb's fault for going there." Or do you think that they would've called the Templars a bunch of cowardly dishonourable bastards?
Not disagreeing that Finn's actions there were in the wrong. But I would like to point out that Medb was at the Templars specifically as an established diplomatic envoy and they knew she was coming. That can't be said for MC.
 
Dec 29, 2018
447
2,675
Not disagreeing that Finn's actions there were in the wrong. But I would like to point out that Medb was at the Templars specifically as an established diplomatic envoy and they knew she was coming. That can't be said for MC.
It's not like he magically teleported into their city, or snuck into the capital uninvited. He was escorted there as a guest by Ailill. They had the opportunity to turn him away and deny him passage at the border, but they didn't do that.

I'd also like to point out that Medb was not just an established diplomatic envoy, but also a terrorist who planned the assault, abduction, imprisonment, and forcible interrogation of the head of Templar organization. By contrast, we didn't do anything to hurt any elves, apart from knocking down the one who just tried to rob and murder us. The one who so happened to be the daughter of the elf whose life we saved not that long ago.
 

motseer

Engaged Member
Dec 17, 2021
3,621
8,829
It's not like he magically teleported into their city, or snuck into the capital uninvited. He was escorted there as a guest by Ailill. They had the opportunity to turn him away and deny him passage at the border, but they didn't do that.

I'd also like to point out that Medb was not just an established diplomatic envoy, but also a terrorist who planned the assault, abduction, imprisonment, and forcible interrogation of the head of Templar organization. By contrast, we didn't do anything to hurt any elves, apart from knocking down the one who just tried to rob and murder us. The one who so happened to be the daughter of the elf whose life we saved not that long ago.
Winner, winner chicken dinner...
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Rehwyn

Active Member
Apr 10, 2024
763
1,204
It's not like he magically teleported into their city, or snuck into the capital uninvited. He was escorted there as a guest by Ailill. They had the opportunity to turn him away and deny him passage at the border, but they didn't do that.

I'd also like to point out that Medb was not just an established diplomatic envoy, but also a terrorist who planned the assault, abduction, imprisonment, and forcible interrogation of the head of Templar organization. By contrast, we didn't do anything to hurt any elves, apart from knocking down the one who just tried to rob and murder us. The one who so happened to be the daughter of the elf whose life we saved not that long ago.
True on the first part, but it was pretty clear to me that Ailill did not anticipate Finn suddenly demanding a duel. If anything, the scene partially worked to establish that while advanced in many ways, Elven society is still burdened my some archaic laws or traditions. And of course that Medb was not at all fond of intervening on your behalf.

Also regarding Medb, in 100% certain that there were Templars there that would have liked to kill her but only didn't try for two main reasons. One, she had armed guards and is an extremely dangerous combatant herself. And two, the Elves still held the Grandmaster hostage and could retaliate by killing him. The Templars of course have more cause here to try to kill her, but I don't think the fact they didn't is due strictly to honor or something like that.
 
Last edited:

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,420
14,167
True on the first part, but it was pretty clear to me that Ailill did not anticipate Finn suddenly demanding a duel. If anything, the scene partially worked to establish that while advanced in many ways, Elven society is still burdened my some archaic laws or traditions. And of course that Medb was not at all fond of intervening on your behalf.
It does serve to establish their basic characterization (though that doesn't do Medb any favors in my book), but it does beg the question of why Ailill only granted the MC safe passage TO the meeting. Don't tell me a guy who lived in a rules-lawyer-culture for millennia didn't recognize the loophole.

Personally, I think he was reluctant to bind the Alfar authorities in case they wanted to capture the MC themselves, and felt the risk was acceptably low (partially since he underestimated Finnabair's temper, partially because he just didn't care for the MC all that much - at least at that point). Would have been nice if he'd mentioned that to the MC ahead of time, of course, but that's not how business is done among the Alfar. Ailill told the MC the terms, it's up to the MC to spot the glaring issues. This is the sort of risk the MC signed himself up for.

Also regarding Medb, in 100% certain that there were Templars there that would have liked to kill her but only didn't try for two main reasons. One, she had armed guards and is an extremely dangerous combatant herself. And two, the Elves still held the Grandmaster hostage and could retaliate by killing him. The Templars of course have more cause here to try to kill her, but I don't think the fact they didn't is due strictly to honor or something like that.
If you're saying Medb would have found a way to forbid the duel if she thought the MC was a threat to Finnabair, I tend to agree. If you're saying the Templars are even more unscrupulous than the Alfar, I disagree. Sure, they hate the elves as much as the Alfar hate them, but for all their grumbling they stil treated Medb with substantially more respect than she showed them in their own home.

Maybe you can attribute that all purely to the Templars having to play from a weaker position in that situation, but I see no reason to give the Alfar the benefit of the doubt given the attitude they've shown at nearly every turn. Even when resolving their own life debt, the Alfar will demand details be settled to their whims, and they consider it a grave affront should anyone even hint otherwise.

I'm pretty unimpressed by both sides of this impending conflict, but so far I find the Templars marginally less offensive.
 

xapican

Devoted Member
May 11, 2020
10,543
15,971
It is mentioned by the Templar themselfes that the Alfar have the stronger position, ever since chapter 3 if they reluctantly played nice it is because of strategic reasons, Medb herself mentions later, that an open war probably bring the Alfar to the verge of extintion.
They see humans generally as a thread, due to their greed and hunger for power.
and want them far off the Nomans Land of Neverwhere. from where you can access Alfheimr their stronghold.
 

xapican

Devoted Member
May 11, 2020
10,543
15,971
Can we write a review for a reviewer ? what is that did some Hollywood caricature Restaurant critic write a review ?
well each day you learn something new.
 
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Dessolos

Devoted Member
Jul 25, 2017
11,847
15,248
Can we write a review for a reviewer ? what is that did some Hollywood caricature Restaurant critic write a review ?
well each day you learn something new.
jesus that review reads like a 2 or 1 star review lol. The moment he said "his sister is an annoying cunt" his review became invalid to me. Hell he complained so much about how the MC can cheat yet that's on the player for doing so was a 10 / 10 read just for the laughs. He probably first person ive seen complain about the writing overall too.
 
Oct 17, 2020
123
195
Aaghhh.. motherfucking fucker.. these damn cliffhangers mannn:LOL::LOL:

Shit just got cool n now it's done lmaoo..:cool:(y)

Also, idk why, but I woulda liked it if the MC whispered something like "Goodbye, my friend" in their language there at the end. Both bc it coulda been seen as a sign of respect, but also woulda been cool if Queenie coulda heard him or something before the whole 'fade-to-black'..

I wonder what'll happen next... would be cool if we have a choice of whether the MC could stand with the elves or the templars.. (not gonna lie.. I'd 100% stand with the elves if that's the only solution)

Excited as shit for the next update tho.. hopefully it wouldn't be too long of a wait
 
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RNasc4444

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2022
1,036
4,268
jesus that review reads like a 2 or 1 star review lol. The moment he said "his sister is an annoying cunt" his review became invalid to me. Hell he complained so much about how the MC can cheat yet that's on the player for doing so was a 10 / 10 read just for the laughs. He probably first person ive seen complain about the writing overall too.
After reading your post I had to go look for the review and read it. Especially considering he called the only character I really like in this game an "annoying cunt" :mad:

Time well spent. 10/10 review. I disagree with most of what he typed and I have no clue if he likes the game or not but goddamn it was an entertaining read. Thanks for poiting it out! (y)
 

nitkonikic

Member
Sep 17, 2018
471
1,597
What in everloving hell is that review?
You can disassemble it bit by bit and write a book on how utterly wrong it is.

He's literally complaining about certain character aspects that can ACTIVELY be avoided.
Normally I don't give 2 craps about reviews, but that one is special, in all the wrong ways.

Why the hell is he calling Jess "annoying cunt"? She's nothing but supportive of MC start to finish (confrontational approach excluded, and even there she's just torn between love for both parents and brother).
 
4.40 star(s) 56 Votes