VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[ename144]

Have you replayed chapter 2 for the added scene ?
What is your thought about that ?

I took a look at the new flashback (at least on a Kaija-centerd run). Overall it's a good addition. I think it frontload some information we really ought to have before making a decision about Kaija, and it does smooth over a few of the rough seams on how the relationship is presented.

That said, I'm still skeptical the game is better off making Kaija the MC's official girlfriend at the start of the game rather than making her a very close childhood friend. It certainly heightens the sense of betrayal, but the game almost has to bend over backwards making that betrayal survivable to keep the GF route alive; the retroactive alterations to the past based on our present day choices are a real headache, and there are still plenty of people who'll never forgive her for siding against the family. (Well, come to think of it, she was actually siding with the family in this case!)

If Kaija had been a more ambiguous, close friend to start the game the transition is a lot smoother. The big reveal could even explain why there'd been so much unresolved sexual tension between the two over the years: Kaija wanted more, but felt she couldn't do that unless she spilled all the secrets first. She just wasn't willing to take that step, and the longer she waited the harder it became. I think that would still give the MC plenty of grievances if the player wants to take issue with her, but makes the sides a little less imbalanced.

Don't think there is even a dialogue/action option to call out to her presented when she leaves.
Checking, now, and nope, none at all.

Spoiler: the whole sequence

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But that line makes it seem like there could have been dialogue between them, had some decision made before (somewhere in chapter 2), prior to the Medb meeting.
Here's hoping Ceolag clarifies this.

This is what Ceolag said about it previously:

Spoiler: Medb Points

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Blasted ninjas.

 

[Ceolag]

Ceolag I finished the Kaija path of the update, and it was very enjoyable; Content is chunky, lots of great characterizations and chemistry between the characters. Loved it.

I'm currently going through Medb-solo path, starting the game from beginning again (and max out her relationship points, like I have with Kaija on her Kaija solo path); and got this result with Chapter 2 when Medb got introduced.

View attachment 3155592

Did I miss something regarding her as to choice somewhere in either chapters 1 or 2 (though given her character is greyed out in chapter 1, feels like chapter 2), given I got only 3 points out of total 4 points?

Hmmm..... it says "You didn't get a chance to talk to her"
Makes me wonder if we "do get a chance to talk to her" if certain choices are done right.

The guys already answered it (Thanks for that!) even including a quote of my reasoning
You don't really miss out if she doesn't talk to you. She will talk to you if you either have 4 points with her or 2 points with Medb and at least 9 points with Kaija.
It's just a few additional lines and a bit of foreshadowing. Nothing that will have an impact on the story or her relationship to you.

I took a look at the new flashback (at least on a Kaija-centerd run). Overall it's a good addition. I think it frontload some information we really ought to have before making a decision about Kaija, and it does smooth over a few of the rough seams on how the relationship is presented.

That said, I'm still skeptical the game is better off making Kaija the MC's official girlfriend at the start of the game rather than making her a very close childhood friend. It certainly heightens the sense of betrayal, but the game almost has to bend over backwards making that betrayal survivable to keep the GF route alive; the retroactive alterations to the past based on our present day choices are a real headache, and there are still plenty of people who'll never forgive her for siding against the family. (Well, come to think of it, she was actually siding with the family in this case!)

If Kaija had been a more ambiguous, close friend to start the game the transition is a lot smoother. The big reveal could even explain why there'd been so much unresolved sexual tension between the two over the years: Kaija wanted more, but felt she couldn't do that unless she spilled all the secrets first. She just wasn't willing to take that step, and the longer she waited the harder it became. I think that would still give the MC plenty of grievances if the player wants to take issue with her, but makes the sides a little less imbalanced.



This is what Ceolag said about it previously:

Spoiler: Medb Points

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Blasted ninjas.

Thanks for your thoughts here. I tried to keep the scene as neutral as possible and not force anything on the player.
I just wanted to show how I imagine their past (no matter if you want to forgive her or not) but with the possibility of leaving the door open for "She lied to me, she can fuck off."

Everything else you said is just true. I'd set it up differently today (lesson learned for Book 2!) but it is what it is now.

 

[xapican]

That's it. She makes mention of you not succombing to the succubi! I wasn't going crazy! rofl.

You have not enogh coffe in your Helmet I would guess

 

[Maviarab]

You have not enogh coffe in your Helmet I would guess

Yeah outta face mask filters!

 

[xapican]

Yeah outta face mask filters!

I would suggest straws but that's dangerous having Joshy around

 

[JJJ84]

The guys already answered it (Thanks for that!) even including a quote of my reasoning
You don't really miss out if she doesn't talk to you. She will talk to you if you either have 4 points with her or 2 points with Medb and at least 9 points with Kaija.
It's just a few additional lines and a bit of foreshadowing. Nothing that will have an impact on the story or her relationship to you.

Yeah, thanks to the guys who answered.

I just finished the Medb-solo path playthrough, and here's my thoughts;

[please note, that this is not to bash the game, but to provide an honest & hopefully constructive criticism; I actually do love several aspects of the game]


With the Kaija-solo path playthrough, this game is awesome. Through and through. I feel that's indisputable fact, especially if one loves her character (and yeah, I love her character very much. She's my second favorite).

However, having said that, with Medb-solo path playthrough, I feel quite a bit conflicted (cause, she's literally my favorite in the game) regarding how she's been used, and her content presented till now.

Why?
Because even when I pursued Medb solo path, and deciding to totally friend-zoning Kaija events, yes there are some differences such as the following;

- Cianan bringing MC over, instead of Kaija giving the tour
- being locked out of Kaija training session (obviously lol)
- MC and Kaija argue and try to hash it out (under Linnae's order) before deciding either just be friends/maybe get back together/definitely get back together.
- Small scene differences such as no longer holding hands.

Yet, the rest of the game after MC first meets Medb in chapter 2, still seemed to lean heavily on Kaija to carry the main arc, even if the player is not pursuing her.
And when I'm in Kaija solo path playthrough, yes it was fantastic.
Whereas, when I'm in Medb solo path playthrough?
Uhh....Not so much.

And yes, on one hand, I get that given Kaija is a Templar and reducing her screentime (for those pursuing Medb or other LIs for that matter) is gonna be a challenge, on the other hand, I can't help but feel Kaija's looming shadow over other LIs, given compared to Kaija, it's much more of a challenge for the rest to spend much of their time with the MC.

I dunno.
Personally, as a huge fan of Medb, I'd like to see her more.
Much more than the screentime she's been getting till now; yes her appearance in Chapter 4 was good, but I felt it was nowhere enough (for me, heh).
But given we're done with Chapter 4 now, and it's been very much been Kaija-centric, I'm just wary that content won't really get balanced out and will for lion's share of it favor Kaija-solo path playthroughs; unless you're planning to have this game be a long running storyline with like 20 or more chapters.

If not, and you're thinking of like around 10 Chapters, game storyline, we're already nearly halfway point (and at that stage, the LIs should be quite well developed, with paths really defined, and player much into the set LIs arc).


Perhaps I'm wrong (and I hope I am) and the other LIs will get heavily involved in the main story in the future - though I guess other than Kaija, I only care about Medb lol.
And other non-Kaija LIs will have their own exclusive events that can only be unlocked in their solo path.

But I guess that remains to be seen.


p.s.

This I guess could be issue associated with branching.
Two games that I can think of that has been doing quite a good job with such aspect; GleenX Studio's SandStorm & Snowstorm.
Those two games, GleenX really managed to balance LIs content well through each update, although they're obviously different from this game in terms of storyline and characters etc lol

 

[nitkonikic]

Spoiler

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I'll try to avoid spoilers.

While I get where you're coming from regarding Medb, I think you really should have realized Medb is a "long game".
Elves kidnapped MCs father, are at a brink of war with Templars and, as far as MC knows, tried to kidnap him as well.

It simply wouldn't make sense to have Medb show him around, or be his guide through Neverwhere.
Kaibitch has been around MC his whole life, she's "familiar territory", so she's best character to introduce MC to new life.

And that is also why Linnae forces them to have the big conversation. Simply put, to save his father they need to, even if MC decides never to forgive her, put hatred aside and learn to work together.
That's why I loved seeing "We work together. For now" option.
MC didn't forget, he just wants to rescue his father.

Working with someone who kidnapped his father and tried to kidnap him would make no sense at all.
Not to mention MC, currently, is a no-one in the eyes of Elves. Or was, but that's spoiler territory.

I will comment on Sandstorm/Snowstorm comparison, only by saying it's not the same. That game throws MC into a new life completely, and he chooses which clan to work with. This is not that. MC still lives in his everyday life, it's just turned upside down.

As for branching, I dare say this one has plenty of it, and with fairly significant differences depending on who you romance/befriend/hate. Chapters 1 and 2 are full of choices which lead to completely different scenes in different locations.

0.4 is the weakest in branching regard, but it makes perfect sense.
MC needs to see Neverwhere. Who can guide him there? There is literally 1 option for that.
And based on how your relationship with Kaija is, there is no handholding (disgusting), there is no saving random guy, no romantic scene on rooftop, they don't walk together through forest. MC is a job and she's doing it.

I believe we'll see ton more of Medb, but so far there was simply nowhere to use her that would make sense.

I do have a save where Medb is primary LI, but that's for when it happens in the future. Also allowed checking some side women, boss at work, girl in a bar etc.

 

[MuffinManWantsPregnancy]

I mean, if anything, I'd be even worse.
Fuck Linnae, Fuck Kaija, fuck every single Templar and their "protecting the humanity" bullcrap.

Chapter 1 "friendship" route with Kaija forever solidified Templars in my mind as pieces of shite not worth any respect.
The moment game gives me option to tell them all to stick their swords where the sun doesn't shine, I'll take it with glee, even on a route where I'm keeping Kaija on high relationship level (but no kissing! Love is gone forever).

And I kinda like MC to be honest.
Refreshing to have MC that can take a bit of "you're a bunch of cunts" approach towards people that lied to him most of his life. And I don't think he's ever overstepped so far. He doesn't like Templars, but he's still acting MOSTLY nice during his conversations with them.

0.4 especially.

This! I agree 100%.

Anyway, my thoughts on the update...

The only thing I am finding annoying is everybody overexplaining every single fucking thing. Would be nice to just...see how things work over time instead of having an exposition dump.

 

[LaShou23]

I thought MC had a weird looking face but when he ordered fish and chips i understood everything.

 

[JJJ84]

I'll try to avoid spoilers.

While I get where you're coming from regarding Medb, I think you really should have realized Medb is a "long game".
Elves kidnapped MCs father, are at a brink of war with Templars and, as far as MC knows, tried to kidnap him as well.

It simply wouldn't make sense to have Medb show him around, or be his guide through Neverwhere.
Kaibitch has been around MC his whole life, she's "familiar territory", so she's best character to introduce MC to new life.

And that is also why Linnae forces them to have the big conversation. Simply put, to save his father they need to, even if MC decides never to forgive her, put hatred aside and learn to work together.
That's why I loved seeing "We work together. For now" option.
MC didn't forget, he just wants to rescue his father.

Working with someone who kidnapped his father and tried to kidnap him would make no sense at all.
Not to mention MC, currently, is a no-one in the eyes of Elves. Or was, but that's spoiler territory.

I will comment on Sandstorm/Snowstorm comparison, only by saying it's not the same. That game throws MC into a new life completely, and he chooses which clan to work with. This is not that. MC still lives in his everyday life, it's just turned upside down.

As for branching, I dare say this one has plenty of it, and with fairly significant differences depending on who you romance/befriend/hate. Chapters 1 and 2 are full of choices which lead to completely different scenes in different locations.

0.4 is the weakest in branching regard, but it makes perfect sense.
MC needs to see Neverwhere. Who can guide him there? There is literally 1 option for that.
And based on how your relationship with Kaija is, there is no handholding (disgusting), there is no saving random guy, no romantic scene on rooftop, they don't walk together through forest. MC is a job and she's doing it.

I believe we'll see ton more of Medb, but so far there was simply nowhere to use her that would make sense.

I do have a save where Medb is primary LI, but that's for when it happens in the future. Also allowed checking some side women, boss at work, girl in a bar etc.

I actually don't agree that that Kaija was the only option to show MC around Neverwhere.
Sure, she was the "familiar" territory to him, but assuming we're going with the whole "MC doesn't trust Kaija after keeping the whole Templar thing a secret and also felt they were drifting apart" scenario i.e. Medb or any other non-Kaija LI paths, why couldn't other characters have shown MC around?

Like for example, Linnae? She was set to take the fall for MC and Kaija's little excursion to Neverwhere anyway in Kaija-solo path, so she could have been the prime candidate to show MC around; and her trying to justify to other Templar Masters that "MC needed to know" and resigning the same.

That, I'd say would have been a far better alternative, than playing the scene with Kaija doing the showing around Neverwhere which plays out pretty much almost identically as when player is going through the Kaija-solo path.
And yes, Kaija showing MC around Neverwhere, laughing and smiling while teaching him the basics makes 100% sense in her own path, but it makes much less sense (given she acts the same) if the player isn't pursuing her.

It just made things seem a bit weird, given they had an argument in the templars office (after Linnae's orders), and unless the player suddenly turned a 180 degrees from friend-zoning to choosing "Oh I changed my mind, I wanna take you back." I'd say if the player chose to just friend-zone Kaija, and wanting to stay on that path, there should have been some sort of choice as to who can show MC around Neverwhere.



As for Medb can't be the guide and show MC around Neverwhere, lol of course not.
But that doesn't mean a separate branch couldn't have been created for those on Medb-solo path; I can already think of one example which is the following;

Linnae shows MC around Neverwhere (no Kaija, she's locked out as option, assuming non-Kaija path lol), and while they're at it, MC becomes separated from Linnae due to factors beyond her control.
MC wonders around, somehow finds Medb and the elves.
He tries to hide, yet Medb finds him and starts to interrogate him (some decent dialogue between the two, maybe some info dump and chance for more relationship points for Medb), Linnae finally finds them and tries to intervene.

However, Hellspawn arrives and things start to turn into chaos.
Linnae tells MC to hide, and the rest unfolds exactly the same as Kaija-solo path's version of it.

Just that with Medb solo path, it fleshes it out some more (as well as more dialogue with Medb) whereas with Kaija-solo path, MC and Kaija arrives to help Medb while the elves were in the thick of the battle.

Only thing that matters is the whole MC saved Medb's life and her owing him a life debt leading to her releasing MC's father.
There could have been a lot of meat on the bones added (and it doesn't even need to be what I wrote above. Just anything, as long as it aligns with leading to the expected conclusion, where the branches end) for Medb's arc with this update with more stuff added which is exclusive to her solo-path.


As for Sandstorm and Snowstorm, well I did state the story and characters are different.
But even so, GleenX is currently doing a really good job with the branches atm, how each LI's arc, diverges with branches until eventually converging, which is what I wanted to point out.



Regarding the whole "long game" aspect, sure. It's clear Medb is a much more of slower burn LI, compared to say, Kaija. But I initially wasn't sure of how long of a game that Ceolag has got planned for this.
If he only planned an entirety of 10 chapters for this, then most likely I would be getting pretty concerned.
But taking a look at the thread's OP, it does say "Book 1, Chapter 4."; meaning at least 2 Books/Seasons worth of storyline.
No idea how many Chapters will there be per season, but even so.
I'll give you that one, heh.

EDIT:

Book 1 (game 1)will be around 11/12 chapters and will tell the story of the current MC to a certain point.
Book 2 (new game) will have new (and old) characters with a different MC and a different story.

Actually, reading this, I am back to being pretty wary now
Book 2 with completely different story and new MC (and likely new LIs) will mean MC's arcs with LI will need to be all wrapped up within the planned 11~12 chapters of Book 1.
Which means, we're already nearly halfway (considering 5.5 or 6 chapters is halfway mark, it's close enough).





My personal hope is, with Medb-solo path, in the future it allowing players to explore locations (such as Elves' forest residence) exclusive to that path, and those locations being locked out if player is on Kaija-solo path (and Kaija solo path having its own exclusive places not available on other paths).
Otherwise, if too much content overlap between path, all there's gonna be is a lot of ctrl fast skip on those second playthrough paths lol.
Not sure whether Ceolag is thinking of this or not, but I hope.

Somehow, this turned into a big ramble from my end lol

 

[Joshy92]

I really liked all the animations in this episode they were awesome

Especially that Kaija one outside the strip club
She was really funny in that scene

 

[Avaron1974]

I have to admit that I find it weird people hate Kaija for keeping a secret organisation a secret.

Especially one keeping a secret that could lead to wars not only in our realm but against other races too and potentially cause billions of deaths giving the demons the opening they need to wipe out everyone.

Bad Kaija for keeping the mankind dooming secret from the MC on the orders of her superiors.

Makes me wonder if people think special forces and organisations like MI5 etc... go home saying "guess what, love, we've built about 30 nukes and keeping them in London but make sure you don't tell Margeret, you know how much of a gossip she is".... meanwhile the SAS guys go home, wife asks how their day went and "oh, you know. Secretly invaded Cambodia, shot some people in the face, blew up a couple of buildings, laughed at Tom's micro penis in the shower. Typical Monday".....

 

[JJJ84]

I have to admit that I find it weird people hate Kaija for keeping a secret organisation a secret.

Especially one keeping a secret that could lead to wars not only in our realm but against other races too and potentially cause billions of deaths giving the demons the opening they need to wipe out everyone.

Bad Kaija for keeping the mankind dooming secret from the MC on the orders of her superiors.

Makes me wonder if people think special forces and organisations like MI5 etc... go home saying "guess what, love, we've built about 30 nukes and keeping them in London but make sure you don't tell Margeret, you know how much of a gossip she is".... meanwhile the SAS guys go home, wife asks how their day went and "oh, you know. Secretly invaded Cambodia, shot some people in the face, blew up a couple of buildings, laughed at Tom's micro penis in the shower. Typical Monday".....

The thing is, it's not even that I hate Kaija.
I actually have a dedicated save for her solo route, and she is my second favorite character in this game.

It's more of when I'm pursuing Medb (given this is not a harem game lol) in her own exclusive path, several of the events play out almost identically to the Kaija-solo path's version of the events.
I mean, I'd expect couple, sure, but many?
lol

Had this update given more differences between Kaija and Medb routes (especially with the Neverwhere exploration), I might think a bit differently, but it's not so.....

If I put my Kaija-solo route hat on? I think it's fantastic and couldn't be happier.
But if I put my Medb-solo route hat on, well.... I guess I'm pretty conflicted in how I feel about it. Want to really like it cause I love Medb's character, but.....

 

[xapican]

My guess would be, that people empatize with MC, plus Kaija being more skilled and expirienced, makes them unconftable, plus Kaija was forced to lie about almost everything (I agree that MC acted a bit selfish and childish as he learns the truth)
add to this, that the Knight templars recieved a lot of bad PR becase of the game Assesins Creed, and no wonder you got The explanation.
On the good side is that Ceolag knows how to involve the emotions of the players that makes it so great.
Edit: not talking about you JJJ84 your thoughts were clear at least for me

 

[FatGiant]

I have to admit that I find it weird people hate Kaija for keeping a secret organisation a secret.

Especially one keeping a secret that could lead to wars not only in our realm but against other races too and potentially cause billions of deaths giving the demons the opening they need to wipe out everyone.

Bad Kaija for keeping the mankind dooming secret from the MC on the orders of her superiors.

Makes me wonder if people think special forces and organisations like MI5 etc... go home saying "guess what, love, we've built about 30 nukes and keeping them in London but make sure you don't tell Margeret, you know how much of a gossip she is".... meanwhile the SAS guys go home, wife asks how their day went and "oh, you know. Secretly invaded Cambodia, shot some people in the face, blew up a couple of buildings, laughed at Tom's micro penis in the shower. Typical Monday".....

So, he shouldn't trust his mother, his father... If they can't handle that a woman NEEDS to keep her JOB secrets, well, secret... She's not betraying him, in fact, she would be a traitor to everything she swore to protect (him included) if she blabbed about it.

When it was needed to come out, she did. At the risk of being judged a traitor and be penalized for it, if they can't see the level of dedication that shows, they are being simply extremely narcissistic and prioritizing their insecurities not only over her, but also all HIS family security (not even to mention the possibility of a bigger leak that would lead to horrible consequences) all because their tiny insecure feelings were a bit scrounged up.

Apparently growing up was presented to these projects of adulthood as "Optional". :: FML ::

 

[Avaron1974]

The thing is, it's not even that I hate Kaija.
I actually have a dedicated save for her solo route, and she is my second favorite character in this game.

It's more of when I'm pursuing Medb (given this is not a harem game lol) in her own exclusive path, several of the events play out almost identically to the Kaija-solo path's version of the events.
I mean, I'd expect couple, sure, but many?
lol

Had this update given more differences between Kaija and Medb routes (especially with the Neverwhere exploration), I might think a bit differently, but it's not so.....

If I put my Kaija-solo route hat on? I think it's fantastic and couldn't be happier.
But if I put my Medb-solo route hat on, well.... I guess I'm pretty conflicted in how I feel about it. Want to really like it cause I love Medb's character, but.....

I understand that and completely agree. I do think there should be other options, or at least Lin, rather than Kaija showing him around if not on her route.

I just don't understand people hating on Kaija for just doing her job.

So, he shouldn't trust his mother, his father... If they can't handle that a woman NEEDS to keep her JOB secrets, well, secret... She's not betraying him, in fact, she would be a traitor to everything she swore to protect (him included) if she blabbed about it.

When it was needed to come out, she did. At the risk of being judged a traitor and be penalized for it, if they can't see the level of dedication that shows, they are being simply extremely narcissistic and prioritizing their insecurities not only over her, but also all HIS family security (not even to mention the possibility of a bigger leak that would lead to horrible consequences) all because their tiny insecure feelings were a bit scrounged up.

Apparently growing up was presented to these projects of adulthood as "Optional". :: FML ::

She did risk her job when she saved his life. She dropped her own mission to get to him.

 

[JJJ84]

I understand that and completely agree. I do think there should be other options, or at least Lin, rather than Kaija showing him around if not on her route.

Haha, exactly.
I used her as the primary candidate as the alternate person who should be showing MC around Neverwhere for those not in Kaija route in my previous post.

 

[Avaron1974]

Haha, exactly.
I used her as the primary candidate as the alternate person who should be showing MC around Neverwhere for those not in Kaija route in my previous post.

It makes the most sense. She taught Kaija how to fight and knows what she doing in Neverwhere better than most. If not on Kaija's route then personally I think it should be Lin taking him around and training him.

It cuts down on Kaija for those not on her route and he's still learning from one of the best.

 

[JJJ84]

It makes the most sense. She taught Kaija how to fight and knows what she doing in Neverwhere better than most. If not on Kaija's route then personally I think it should be Lin taking him around and training him.

It cuts down on Kaija for those not on her route and he's still learning from one of the best.

Also, Lin resigning from the Templars Master position can still be very much valid with her showing around MC Neverwhere cause she breached protocol nonetheless.

Different path, but ending up with same result (as Kaija showing version of Kaija path) in the end.

 

[FatGiant]

I do think there should be other options

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 4 LI's, is it Not so? There may be other girls to flirt and eventually bang, but the LI's are only 4, right?

Of those 4, that we know right now, only 2 have access to Neverwhere. Maybe Fiona has something, but it isn't in the story yet. Medb, is not yet an ally to be leading him around Neverwhere, so, that leaves only Kaija, whether you are in her route or not to be the LI that goes with him.

Why must it be a LI, well, because of what happens during the tour. It wouldn't be fitting to leave that for a side-chick.

The only option would be to elevate one of the side-chicks to LI if we reject one of the 4. If the game isn't an Harem isn't those rejections the end goal of the game? Wouldn't the continuous transfer of LI status to another girl be going against that end goal?

You rejected the only person fit to take you on your first tour of a new world? Well... deal with it... We'll have to make harder and more complex choices before the end (not me, I'll only play this once and Kaija is already chosen).

Honestly, to me, all the other girls are just eye-candy, couldn't care less for them and their story.

Peace