VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Leongen43]

I hope you are saying this for humour reason not as your real thought.

Let's give an example what you said sounded like. Let's say, I met a woman who I find incredibly hot but have no emotion towards her. Then I noticed she is attracted to me but has more traditional thinking so no ONS, she only would have sex if we are in a relationship. The minute I noticed this, I started lying to her. Get in relationship so I can fuck her. When she realise I was only pretending to be her boyfriend because I wanted fuck her. If my response to that would be same as yours, what's wrong with that? Can't I have joy of Sex or longings ? She would murder me.

Kaija lied to MC and pretended to be his gf. If MC behaviours unacceptable then she should have break up but she cannot because she has to be close to MC. You are using common defence of irl cheaters. Saying there is nothing wrong with that being obnoxious at best.

First we have to find out the reasons and not only the Kaija but also the Templars to know clearly the reasons that motivated them to lie and make the MC suffer, making decisions without understanding the truth of what is happening is stupid for me, taking Decisions without having the necessary knowledge always end in a bad choice, the further the story progresses it will be easier to make the right decision about Kaija, don't you think?

 

[ename144]

She is LITERALLY sleeping with MC because "it made the job easier". Literally. How else should I call her?
The order was overruled by MCs dad, she didn't have to sleep with MC. She is doing it because it makes her job easier.

Let me repeat that sentence again: It makes the job easier.
That's not reading between the lines, it is what she herself said.
So yes. She is a whore.

Unfortunately, that is you reading between the lines. First, because Kaija will doesn't say the relationship "made several things easier" if you have high affection with her. Since Kajia's backstory changes based on the points we rack up with her in the first chapter, you can't apply what she says about her motivations in one the branches on her path to another branch. I think that was a very bad game design decision that needlessly complicates her character, but we're stuck with it.

Second, on all of her paths Kaija explicitly states that she did NOT lie about liking the MC. Of course, like her backstory, exactly what she means with this statement is hard to pin down because her attitude and actions are wildly different depending on the branch you're on, but that's still what she says. I'm not going to rehash the whole discussion yet again, but you can dig into some of the discussion here and here.

As far as Kaija sleeping with the MC to make her job easier, I think that's limited only to a low-point branch. On the high affection branch, my take she was only spending more time as friends with the MC, and sleeping with him was because she really liked him. On the middling affection branch, it's somewhere between those points. Again, I don't think this a great way to present a character, but such is life.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled Kaija bashing.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I do see what Kaija did wrong and why some may not forgive or like her. Honestly only reason im willing to defend Kaija / be more forgiving and understanding and not the parents is for a few reasons. As far as I can recall I think it was the parents idea to have Kaija keep the secrets from the MC initially , as well get close and be a "bodyguard". But correct me if im wrong but didn't the parents recruit her when she was young so I feel there has to be some kind of brainwashing done there as well. Because of that I do put more of the blame on the parents but she is still to blame for going along with everything while in a relationship and not at least saying , hey I have some big secret I cant tell you, you cool with that. But as you know I understand the why and forgave her.

Dude I have no objection to your mindset. You know she did wrong and after listening her excuses you decide to forgive her. In the end it's all subjective and it's all up to you. I wouldn't and you would, that's that. What makes me tick that people saying she did nothing wrong or she has a right to do that because she had reasons. Even Kaija is not that cruel and understood her mistakes. On love path, she is even apologetic about it.

You are not entirely accurate about how it unfolded though. First of all, it was MC's parents' idea. Some other Templar tried to force her to be closer to MC. MC's father stopped that and only allowed Kaija being tasked as bodyguard, how she would do it was up to her. There is a small catch here, she did not refuse the order. She refused to talk about their relations. She did not have good relationship with her parents, she only had grandfather whom she lost in her early age. That's correct she joined young, even had training before joining but we don't have any info about how, why joined it.

For blaming part, I blame them in two different but related reasons. First one, not telling about Neverwhere. In this one I blame MC's parents more than Kaija. She was tasked to keep it secret like all other Templars. It can be debatable whether or not she should have told it. MC's parents definetely should have but Kaija's situation was tricky. I think there was no reason to tell him when they were friends but she should have told it before they started a relationship.
This brings the second thing I blame them. Romantic relationship with MC. I blame Kaija more than MC's parents on this. She should not have got involved with MC, if she ever loved him as a friend or otherwise. You can't do this to someone you love, someone you respect, someone you like, even to someone completely stranger. She faked a relationship for her own benefit. This is plain and simple. I blame MC's parents on this only on one front, they should have stopped this. As a grand master MC's father could have give Kaija an another task, order her to stop seeing MC etc. They should have prevented it.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

First we have to find out the reasons and not only the Kaija but also the Templars to know clearly the reasons that motivated them to lie and make the MC suffer, making decisions without understanding the truth of what is happening is stupid for me, taking Decisions without having the necessary knowledge always end in a bad choice, the further the story progresses it will be easier to make the right decision about Kaija, don't you think?

That is the thing though, you don't do such a thing under any circumstances. She could have stayed as a friend then I would not have any problem with her. I'd consider her as untrustworthy and stopped being a friend because she can lie with ease but that's about it. When she started the relationship, that's a line you'd never cross.
In this regard, I find bitch path of hers more understandable. In that path, she has no care for MC. Therefore, MC is just another task for her and she does whatever deem to be necessary. If she was ordered to kill MC, she would have done that. They ordered her to protect and be close to him, she did the job the easiest way possible. Nothing personal, only business you know.
When she did that while claiming she loves MC. That's fucking wow. Deserves all the hatred then some more.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

As far as Kaija sleeping with the MC to make her job easier, I think that's limited only to a low-point branch. On the high affection branch, my take she was only spending more time as friends with the MC, and sleeping with him was because she really liked him. On the middling affection branch, it's somewhere between those points. Again, I don't think this a great way to present a character, but such is life.

You are wrong about that. There are two sequential scenes she says, before I really realized it, we both were a thing then she adds over time I fell in love with you which means she started the relationship before she loved him.

Second, on all of her paths Kaija explicitly states that she did NOT lie about liking the MC. Of course, like her backstory, exactly what she means with this statement is hard to pin down because her attitude and actions are wildly different depending on the branch you're on, but that's still what she says. I'm not going to rehash the whole discussion yet again, but you can dig into some of the discussion here and here.

That like part can only be referenced to the friendship since all the paths cover that. On top of that, she differantiate them by using like and love verbs.

To me, that implies that Kaija deliberately and artificially amped up her friendship with the MC in response to the Templars' orders, but she intended to to keep things platonic. On all her paths things escalated to a sexual relationship despite her intent, but how she responded to that varies by path. If her points are low, she decided this made her life easier and embraced the lie. On her love path, she was sincere in her feelings but didn't know how to solidify the new relationship without spilling all the beans.

I think this take is a good one but as far as we know MC did not force her into a relationship, is she so weak willed she could not stop it? Intended to keep it platonic but could not, then for her love path the task compromised. She should have asked reassignment.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled Kaija bashing.

Really?

 

[xapican]

I hope you are saying this for humour reason not as your real thought.

Let's give an example what you said sounded like. Let's say, I met a woman who I find incredibly hot but have no emotion towards her. Then I noticed she is attracted to me but has more traditional thinking so no ONS, she only would have sex if we are in a relationship. The minute I noticed this, I started lying to her. Get in relationship so I can fuck her. When she realise I was only pretending to be her boyfriend because I wanted fuck her. If my response to that would be same as yours, what's wrong with that? Can't I have joy of Sex or longings ? She would murder me.

Kaija lied to MC and pretended to be his gf. If MC behaviours unacceptable then she should have break up but she cannot because she has to be close to MC. You are using common defence of irl cheaters. Saying there is nothing wrong with that being obnoxious at best.

Defen, unfortunatley that what you describe is more common (from the male side) as from the female side, and that is each ones morals ethics etc. if you do so, If you have any of self respect, you (and that is true how you said it) won't do anything, on the other hand there are millions of "so called males" that do so, I personally despise them, and to be fair Kaija, has emotions towards MC (that if you count platonic love as an emotion of course) and she comes clear, about all, she takes the bull by the horns and put her cards on the table, thing what we can't say about MC mom, or dad they don't say a word, Kaija has to get backup from Linae, and Hilda, to tell MC, and only because he witnessed and was target of an killing atempt.

You are using common defence of irl cheaters. Saying there is nothing wrong with that being obnoxious at best.

No, I'm just stating that she has the same right as you (MC) to feel lust and joy of sex, On the middle path and on the No points path, you as MC can: Flirt and date Elea, fuck Anissa, flirt with your boss, flirt with the Bartender, flirt and Date with Fiona, while in a formal relationship with Kaija. (you two even share an apartment).
by the way, the "phrase" is used by cheaters and nacisitic manipulators. (so no wonder you react like that, It was even used against me, from a girlfriend it had consequenseces of course tbh I used it to provoke a bit so sorry if I hurt you)

 

[xapican]

Really?

Yes,

but you already know you'll get full broadside back !

 

[ename144]

You are wrong about that. There are two sequential scenes she says, before I really realized it, we both were a thing then she adds over time I fell in love with you which means she started the relationship before she loved him.

Which doesn't actually disagree with my statement.

That like part can only be referenced to the friendship since all the paths cover that. On top of that, she differantiate them by using like and love verbs.

That's possible, but the likelihood depends on the branch. Kaija's very clear the original friendship wasn't fake across all the branches (and given their age in the flashback, it would be almost impossible for it to be fake). But what prompts her denial is when the MC accuses her of pretending to like him after she reveals the Templars ordered her to protect him.

As she explains on all branches, the fake part of the relationship started by doing "friend stuff" rather than sex. The sex came later, by which time it's no longer clear what her feelings for the MC were. On the low affection branch, she never developed stronger feelings so the sex was just something fun to do that made her guard job easier. On the high affection branch, she did develop stronger feelings at some point, and clearly enjoyed her time with the MC even if she didn't know how to come clean about the whole Templar business. We know her attitude can change a lot from one branch to the other, so it's a mistake to use the straightforward order of events in one branch directly in another.

Personally, I don't think the exact timing makes a huge difference - either way she simultaneous had both genuine love for the MC and a fake relationship with him. She wronged him whether the relationship or the love started first (on the high affection branch, that is), and it's up to the player to decide how much trust to place in her going forward . But it does make a much bigger difference compared to the low affection branch.

I just think people are way too quick to file her whole relationship as an act when a) the evidence doesn't necessarily support that, and b) her backstory is in such a muddle we really should be careful drawing conclusions from it.

Really?

Of course. It's practically the national pastime.

 

[xapican]

Of course. It's practically the national pastime.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Yes,
View attachment 3511690
but you already know you'll get full broadside back !

As long as it's from you xapi.

Defen, unfortunatley that what you describe is more common (from the male side) as from the female side, and that is each ones morals ethics etc. if you do so, If you have any of self respect, you (and that is true how you said it) won't do anything, on the other hand there are millions of "so called males" that do so, I personally despise them, and to be fair Kaija, has emotions towards MC (that if you count platonic love as an emotion of course) and she comes clear, about all, she takes the bull by the horns and put her cards on the table, thing what we can't say about MC mom, or dad they don't say a word, Kaija has to get backup from Linae, and Hilda, to tell MC, and only because he witnessed and was target of an killing atempt.

Being common does not make it right though, innit? She did neither of those, she only gave an explanation after everything unravelled. She only answered questions did not take any initiative either. If Jessicca did not ask about her relation to MC, she did not mention it. MC's mother tried to cover even after everything happened that much is correct and I despise her for it. Though, neither MC nor Jessica was buying it, so they had to explain. On top of that, Templars needed MC. So talking about bare minimum is not a show of courage.

No, I'm just stating that she has the same right as you (MC) to feel lust and joy of sex, On the middle path and on the No points path, you as MC can: Flirt and date Elea, fuck Anissa, flirt with your boss, flirt with the Bartender, flirt and Date with Fiona, while in a formal relationship with Kaija. (you two even share an apartment).
by the way, the "phrase" is used by cheaters and nacisitic manipulators. (so no wonder you react like that, It was even used against me, from a girlfriend it had consequenseces of course tbh I used it to provoke a bit so sorry if I hurt you)

Yes and no. I don't see flirting as a cheating so if she is or MC flirting with others, that is normal for me. So flirting with Elea, boss, bartender or Fiona is not a problem for me. Irl, flirting is only a problem if the other side is a problem. If they tend to make it more than what it is, if the other person someone I despise etc. and it goes both ways, np with that.
If any of the dating/fucking option was before the end of chapter 1, I would never choose them. There is no choice for Kaija not lying to MC though, so it's not the same. Not same rights either.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Personally, I don't think the exact timing makes a huge difference - either way she simultaneous had both genuine love for the MC and a fake relationship with him. She wronged him whether the relationship or the love started first (on the high affection branch, that is), and it's up to the player to decide how much trust to place in her going forward . But it does make a much bigger difference compared to the low affection branch.

Okay, no need for further discussion, we are on the same page. Details don't matter much tbh. You accepted she wronged him, that's all I am saying. Forgiving her is entirely up to the player. For me, there is no reason can make what she did forgivable. If someone can forgive her in such a situation it's up to them.

Of course. It's practically the national pastime.

Okay then. Fuck Kaija and everything she stands for. I hope she'll end up on a stake. I'll bring the oil and wood.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Here's a premise for all of the Kaija haters to consider:

Neverwhere Tales is instead written where the Kaija role is the MC role, and the Kaija character is now the oldest daughter of the Grand Master of the Templars. MC grew up with Kaija. Her family sheltered her from the Templars and the evils of Neverwhere, trying to give her a more normal life. When MC discovered and joined the order, he was eventually asked to act as a kind of guardian to her - he was already one of her closest friends, he just needed to continue being so. Given their prior relationship, and the time spent with her, he eventually fell for her romantically as well (think "The Bodyguard" movie - cue Whitney Houston version of "I Will Always Love You"). He had to keep things from her to protect and shelter her, but he did honestly love her.

Then shit hits the fan. He goes against orders to protect her when she is in actual physical danger, revealing the rest of what he is and what he's been doing all along.

She feels betrayed. She feels misled. She feels she was being treated like a child rather than being allowed to see and decide for herself. She gets angry at the MC and he tries to explain he grew to genuinely love her and only kept things hidden for her safety and because, after all those years, he was afraid to disappoint her and lose her.

If y'all were playing that version of the MC, I suspect you'd feel like she was just an ungrateful bitch that didn't understand you and your sacrifices. That she was being an unreasonable child, so fuck her. Of course, this is the tack you all are taking now, with the roles as they are. I think either way this VN was presented, you'd either hate her for being the character she is now, or hate her for being the character MC is now (you know, the ungrateful bitch). Your ego only allows you to support the side of the equation you are on: you would resent her for seeing you as a betrayer just as much as you resent her seeing her as a betrayer. And I see that as hypocritical.

Yes we know, you have said a few times and every time we shoot it down. Yet you keep regurgitating this gender bias crap. One last time, the short version: I don't give a shit what is between their legs, if a person deliberately lies, deceives, manipulates, someone they supposedly care for then they are an asshole no matter what is between their legs or what their background is. In fact the biggest asshole of all is the damn father (surprise he isn't a girl). Since he isn't an LI, there is less focus on his bullshit actions. Kaija get so much focus because she is one of the four LIs. Otherwise no one would talk about her.

The MC is also an asshole if he screws the girl at the pub, if you get on that path. Since us men are such horrible hypocrites, I'm sure you can find some girls to hang out with and drivel about how bad men are and where have all the good men gone. . However, I'd like to see you drop this gender bias crap and go back to your more interesting commentary.

 

[xapican]

I hope she'll end up on a stake.

preferible on mine! for what use, I have "Vlad the Impaler"?

 

[ThorinKing]

Yes we know, you have said a few times and every time we shoot it down. Yet you keep regurgitating this gender bias crap. One last time, the short version: I don't give a shit what is between their legs, if a person deliberately lies, deceives, manipulates, someone they supposedly care for then they are an asshole no matter what is between their legs or what their background is. In fact the biggest asshole of all is the damn father (surprise he isn't a girl). Since he isn't an LI, there is less focus on his bullshit actions. Kaija get so much focus because she is one of the four LIs. Otherwise no one would talk about her.

The MC is also an asshole if he screws the girl at the pub, if you get on that path. Since us men are such horrible hypocrites, I'm sure you can find some girls to hang out with and drivel about how bad men are and where have all the good men gone. . However, I'd like to see you drop this gender bias crap and go back to your more interesting commentary.

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[Raziel_8]

Yes we know, you have said a few times and every time we shoot it down. Yet you keep regurgitating this gender bias crap. One last time, the short version: I don't give a shit what is between their legs, if a person deliberately lies, deceives, manipulates, someone they supposedly care for then they are an asshole no matter what is between their legs or what their background is. In fact the biggest asshole of all is the damn father (surprise he isn't a girl). Since he isn't an LI, there is less focus on his bullshit actions. Kaija get so much focus because she is one of the four LIs. Otherwise no one would talk about her.

The MC is also an asshole if he screws the girl at the pub, if you get on that path. Since us men are such horrible hypocrites, I'm sure you can find some girls to hang out with and drivel about how bad men are and where have all the good men gone. . However, I'd like to see you drop this gender bias crap and go back to your more interesting commentary.

Well, it seems like it's impossible to blame Kajia for her lies, without being a hypocritical misogynist.
Even if you would be on her side, if the roles were reversed (something which is apparently impossible for us) ...i mean, kudos to that one's level of mental gymnastic

 

[Ceolag]

Have proof of that do you?

Now he does:
She didn't cheat in any possible way.
No need to go into story reasons for that, I can just point at the NTR topic.
Having her cheat because of orders/money/bamboo sticks is borderline NTR and I'm NOT going to open that can of worms.
Otherwise, we'll have 180 pages more by Sunday.

 

[Dessolos]

Otherwise, we'll have 180 pages more by Sunday.

Challenge accepted the only way I know how to do that is Down with Kaija!

 

[Leongen43]

Now he does:
She didn't cheat in any possible way.
No need to go into story reasons for that, I can just point at the NTR topic.
Having her cheat because of orders/money/bamboo sticks is borderline NTR and I'm NOT going to open that can of worms.
Otherwise, we'll have 180 pages more by Sunday.

I understand, but if it happened and Kaija was unfaithful, would this be the armor he would use to prevent the protagonist from being made fun of and give a justification for the cuckolding?

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[ThorinKing]

I understand, but if it happened and Kaija was unfaithful, would this be the armor he would use to prevent the protagonist from being made fun of and give a justification for the cuckolding?

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That is a fucking abomination.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

You are wrong about that. There are two sequential scenes she says, before I really realized it, we both were a thing then she adds over time I fell in love with you which means she started the relationship before she loved him.

Personally I think that when she talks about "initially nothing was true" she is referring to the reasons for spending more time together, given how many times she wants to specify that the feelings are true, the relationship should have arisen naturally by spending more time together.
For every other routh there is no possibility of redemption.