VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Dessolos]

God damn it, I absolutely fucking hate Kaija.

Spoiler

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As someone who likes Kaija this is why I like her and is my favorite ( as 0.4 still need to play 0.5)

Yeah the disobeyed order thing never really crossed my mind and like Milton said it really wasn't disobeying a order. The reasons I like her is cause : She saved / tried to save the MC, the lie about neverwhere / the templars is kind of unbelievable without showing the MC and she would get in trouble for it. Also she did try to disobey the order on the love path to become the MC's girlfriend for the purpose of making her job easier. So I personally believe she only did so later because she wanted too. That and I really believe the Templars brainwashed her from a early age so she probably doesn't even see or think beyond duty to see how it could effect their relationship until it's too late.

That and im a pretty understanding person so with the context we are provided currently I was fine and able to accept and forgive her. That being said I do completely trust her in terms of a relationship is concerned but I'm also wary of her when it comes to loyalty for now if she is ordered to do something at least if the order won't put the MC in harms way intentionally. But I do believe her loyalty is gonna start to shift away from the Templars over time.

 

[Quetzzz]

what I'm trying to say none of you did take a wrong decision out of fear loosing a valuable friendship ?

Not a wrong decision on the level of "Let's start an intimate relationship because it's convenient", no.

 

[Quetzzz]

So I personally believe she only did so later because she wanted too.

No, the origin of the relationship is the same in both cases. Only on the love path, she will have caught actual feelings after "going with the flow" for a while. She also admits (again on the love path), that it was only after Alex was in danger, that her priority shifted away from the Templars and toward him. This means that all these years of being with him, her heart wasn't entirely in it.

 

[AlexMpog]

See, I roleplayed start bit differently.
Early sex, angry during phone call (because relationship is strained) and ended with 2 points, no love.
BAM, "You were just a job to me"....holy shit that revelation on 1st playthrough.

Still love her: "Not sure", because at that point MC is still confused.
Beach with Elea: "Have girlfriend?" "Don't know".
Forward slightly to bench scene, selecting Steroid Kevin as guide, Kaija straight up refuses to talk on bench, and she's sitting there like nothing happened. She doesn't care. Even if MC loved her to that point, that's when he realizes he is nothing to her.

So yes, after that it's free season to find new girlfriend, but betrayal, finding out his parents knew all about it, hid it from him, ruined his life so they can tap themselves on the back for job well done....absolutely hated them from that moment.
Chance to vent and release all frustration was welcome.

After all that, safest area to find new girlfriend would be among elves. At least chances it's Templar spy are basically non-existent.

Pretty much my playthrough
That was pretty cold behaviour from Kajia and for MC - harsh waking up to the reality.

I might be wrong of course, but I think people who is not fond of Kajia - played her no-love path first, and its really hard to recover after that and readjust. Especially if you immerse yourself.

Like I said some time ago - there is no hatred from me, but there is no trust/affection either.

As someone who likes Kaija this is why I like her and is my favorite ( as 0.4 still need to play 0.5)

Yeah the disobeyed order thing never really crossed my mind and like Milton said it really wasn't disobeying a order. The reasons I like her is cause : She saved / tried to save the MC, the lie about neverwhere / the templars is kind of unbelievable without showing the MC and she would get in trouble for it. Also she did try to disobey the order on the love path to become the MC's girlfriend for the purpose of making her job easier. So I personally believe she only did so later because she wanted too. That and I really believe the Templars brainwashed her from a early age so she probably doesn't even see or think beyond duty to see how it could effect their relationship until it's too late.

That and im a pretty understanding person so with the context we are provided currently I was fine and able to accept and forgive her. That being said I do completely trust her in terms of a relationship is concerned but I'm also wary of her when it comes to loyalty for now if she is ordered to do something at least if the order won't put the MC in harms way intentionally. But I do believe her loyalty is gonna start to shift away from the Templars over time.

I would say your argument "understanding/forgiving person" speaks rather more about you as a person than Kajia , - thats what I would normally say, but in this case the fact that you're using this argument also tells a lot about her as well.
What I am trying to say - that's not very "bulletproof" argument in her defence hahah, in my opinion at least.

 

[Dessolos]

No, the origin of the relationship is the same in both cases. Only on the love path, she will have caught actual feelings after "going with the flow" for a while. She also admits (again on the love path), that it was only after Alex was in danger, that her priority shifted away from the Templars and toward him. This means that all these years of being with him, her heart wasn't entirely in it.

i'll have to replay the game when the update comes out on steam and see for myself but from what I recall she fought against the order lost and then the grandmaster stepped in so it was up to her. That's why I believe and still do it was because she wanted to not because of the job , at least initially. I'm sure it did become about the job at some point. So even if her heart wasn't in it at first the fact she wanted to fight against the order is enough for me that she did have some feelings at least.

I would say your argument "understanding/forgiving person" speaks rather more about you as a person than Kajia , - thats what I would normally say, but in this case the fact that you're using this argument also tells a lot about her as well.
What I am trying to say - that's not very "bulletproof" argument in her defence hahah, in my opinion at least.

Well wasn't really trying to defend her all that much just saying why I liked her. Tho I do still think the whole thing about having to see neverwhere and the Templar HQ to believe it is the only real defense for that lie and a valid one. The rest like entering a relationship knowing she would have to lie not so much but not a deal breaker to me once I learned the context and saw how tried to save us even if it is a prime directive order. That and I put more of the blame on the Templar leadership than her tbh.

 

[Quetzzz]

f but from what I recall she fought against the order lost and then the grandmaster stepped in so it was up to her.

That's correct. She refused the assignment to seduce Alex. At this point, the grandmaster wasn't aware of Kaija being asked this, and he put a stop to it when it came to light.

That's why I believe and still do it was because she wanted to not because of the job , at least initially.

She said it herself, the friendship was real, then she got used to being with Alex, and just went with the flow. It made things easier.
Then, depending on player choices, she'll either have fallen in love with him for real, or saw the relationship in a more utilitarian way.

So even if her heart wasn't in it at first the fact she wanted to fight against the order is enough for me that she did have some feelings at least.

I wouldn't call it feelings, but self-respect and honor, in a way. Though what she ended up doing wasn't much better. If you're not on the love path with her, her behavior is cold and calculating. By being in a relationship with Alex, she's stopping him from finding happiness with someone who actually returns his feelings.
On the love path, I don't think things are much better. She still puts her job first, the relationship and Alex second. And, I think you can see that in her demeanor as well. The first time I saw Kaija laugh was in Neverwhere with Alex.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

...Oberon?

I mean, I don't want to judge you or anything but...

*judges you*

Thanks!

I needed that laugh after reaching 'Daughter of the Sun' at the end of CH 5.

I just finished yesterday as I decided to restart from the beginning so that everything was fresh in my mind when I started CH 5 - worth it for me!

The Finnabair story arc was exceptional!

It is a rare AVN where I find myself reaching for tissues because I become invested in a side character and the suddenness of her loss hits me so hard...

The ceremony at the end was moving and quite sad; the MC was in the presence of not just the Alfar King Oberon and the Queens Mab and Titania, but also of Finnabair's father.

It got even worse with the words of parting, when I saw Medb call Finnabair Ainu ... daughter...

That was a tough goodbye!

Even with the sadness, though, I also enjoyed getting to know both Finnabair and Medb - not realizing just how close their relationship was or how much they shared...

As I made this post, I literally just realized that I called not just Queen Mab, but Finnabair and her Mother bitches... fuck me...

Spoiler: Watching My Words

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I Really need CH 6 now, so I can find out the details of what happened and either redress the wrong done or make Finnabair's death mean something.[/ISPOILER]

Cheers!!

 

[MiltonPowers]

i'll have to replay the game when the update comes out on steam and see for myself but from what I recall she fought against the order lost and then the grandmaster stepped in so it was up to her. That's why I believe and still do it was because she wanted to not because of the job , at least initially. I'm sure it did become about the job at some point. So even if her heart wasn't in it at first the fact she wanted to fight against the order is enough for me that she did have some feelings at least.

Well wasn't really trying to defend her all that much just saying why I liked her. Tho I do still think the whole thing about having to see neverwhere and the Templar HQ to believe it is the only real defense for that lie and a valid one. The rest like entering a relationship knowing she would have to lie not so much but not a deal breaker to me once I learned the context and saw how tried to save us even if it is a prime directive order. That and I put more of the blame on the Templar leadership than her tbh.

I understand why she couldn't tell MC and actually respect her devotion to the Templars and her beliefs. The fact that she had to lie, is on MC Dad, not her. I'm personally, more pissed at him, than Kaija. It's the reason why I play the friendship path and am happy to be building a friendship with her (it's one of those playing MC as myself immersion things, doing what I would do).

I don't hate her, (and it's very likely that I won't be playing the hate path at all), currently just doing friendship path, but will do a love path at some point. She clearly had feelings and cared for MC, even if you don't play love path. I just personally can't continue a love relationship, because she did lie to MC and did so successfully for a long time.

She is just as much a victim of manipulation, and if you're on love or friendship path it must have been eating her up inside to keep something so dear to her, from someone she really cared about. I feel sorry for her and hope she will be a great ally and friend into the future, but i can't let her into my heart, because, quite simple, I cannot trust her. It wasn't a one-off lie, but a lifetime of deceit, 24/7 in recent times. I'm finding it hard to even trust her as a friend, but trying anyway, because she does seems sincere and I do believe that she cares for MC.

This is probably on the friendship path only, but, I also noticed she seemed to relax more once they defined their relationship. Almost like there was a pressure to be someone she's not. She let down her barriers and was just herself, hanging with a (getting there) friend. Personally, I liked it. There is probably a similar reaction on the love path.

 

[Dessolos]

I understand why she couldn't tell MC and actually respect her devotion to the Templars and her beliefs. The fact that she had to lie, is on MC Dad, not her. I'm personally, more pissed at him, than Kaija. It's the reason why I play the friendship path and am happy to be building a friendship with her (it's one of those playing MC as myself immersion things, doing what I would do).

I don't hate her, (and it's very likely that I won't be playing the hate path at all), currently just doing friendship path, but will do a love path at some point. She clearly had feelings and cared for MC, even if you don't play love path. I just personally can't continue a love relationship, because she did lie to MC and did so successfully for a long time.

She is just as much a victim of manipulation, and if you're on love or friendship path it must have been eating her up inside to keep something so dear to her, from someone she really cared about. I feel sorry for her and hope she will be a great ally and friend into the future, but i can't let her into my heart, because, quite simple, I cannot trust her. It wasn't a one-off lie, but a lifetime of deceit, 24/7 in recent times. I'm finding it hard to even trust her as a friend, but trying anyway, because she does seems sincere and I do believe that she cares for MC.

This is probably on the friendship path only, but, I also noticed she seemed to relax more once they defined their relationship. Almost like there was a pressure to be someone she's not. She let down her barriers and was just herself, hanging with a (getting there) friend. Personally, I liked it. There is probably a similar reaction on the love path.

yeah I get no being able to trust her for a romantic relationship I just am able to in a relationship but that's says more about me haha. ( tho alot of it is how I play these games too) I'm gonna play all 3 of her paths when I replay this , when it's out on steam.

 

[MiltonPowers]

yeah I get no being able to trust her for a romantic relationship I just am able to in a relationship but that's says more about me haha. ( tho alot of it is how I play these games too) I'm gonna play all 3 of her paths when I replay this , when it's out on steam.

I do have a quiet giggle to myself, that big Kaija fans like yourself and Xapi are playing the hate path, while I don't intend to.

 

[nitkonikic]

Kaija hate path, while harsh, is quite tame so far. She's just cold. MC is just a job.
Hurts like hell, but what can you expect from templar.

What I am looking forwards to is Medb hate path. That will be true hatred path.

But that's chapter 5 discussion so...it can wait.

 

[Dessolos]

I do have a quiet giggle to myself, that big Kaija fans like yourself and Xapi are playing the hate path, while I don't intend to.

well that's more cause I tend to play almost every path in most AVN's I play even character I dislike. Tho in this case I am also curious if perhaps I'll change how I feel about her. It feels only right for me to check out all of her paths since there is such a divide on who likes her and doesn't , especially cause she is a favorite of mine in my top 10.

 

[zaqrwe]

You mean secret ending ? can't think of another one

What secret ending? You mean the funeral scene? Archievement for this wasn't hidden, so I got it eventually. Still have no clue which hidden one I'm missing.

 

[Maviarab]

But that would mean the entire council, including Linnae is in on that lie. That doesn't make sense to me. If Kaija breaks off from her mission to come to you, there will be dialog that acknowledges that she did exactly that.

And conveniently there is a dialogue with Linnae where she tells you she told the council she told Kaija to leave (on the no orders path)...

At this point, the grandmaster wasn't aware of Kaija being asked this,

Yes, he was.

 

[Quetzzz]

And conveniently there is a dialogue with Linnae where she tells you she told the council she told Kaija to leave (on the no orders path)...

True! But, on the love-path, William will make a remark that taking Alex to Neverwhere was her 2nd infraction in a short time, and that she should still expect punishment for it.

Yes, he was.

Maybe I'm confusing the timeline, or missed something, but this is how I understand the events:
- Kaija was contacted by a supervisor with the task of inserting herself in Alex's life romantically
- She refused and raised a fuss
- She appeared before the council, at which point Robert found out about the plan (or its exact nature)
- Somewhere in between, Robert and Helga talked about this, with Helga giving her blessing
- Robert and Linnae disagreed about the romantic part, and asked Kaija to just stay close.
- Kaija agreed, and eventually entered a relationship with Alex because it was comfortable and easy.

 

[Maviarab]

True! But, on the love-path, William will make a remark that taking Alex to Neverwhere was her 2nd infraction in a short time, and that she should still expect punishment for it.


Maybe I'm confusing the timeline, or missed something, but this is how I understand the events:
- Kaija was contacted by a supervisor with the task of inserting herself in Alex's life romantically
- She refused and raised a fuss
- She appeared before the council, at which point Robert found out about the plan (or its exact nature)
- Somewhere in between, Robert and Helga talked about this, with Helga giving her blessing
- Robert and Linnae disagreed about the romantic part, and asked Kaija to just stay close.
- Kaija agreed, and eventually entered a relationship with Alex because it was comfortable and easy.

Doesn't matter. Eiether scenario...the council send her...or Linnae covers for her. Either way, a council decision, not hers

You miss and forget a lot across a lot ov VN's I've noticed hehehe.

He was fully aware of what was being asked of her. Always. Council decision to ask her, he head of said council. Once him and Linnae voted against (and at this point, that's only two votes remember...5 members) he was unaware of what 'she decided to do' later. He was always aware of the plan for her to romance him.

Also bear in mind, this convo ONLY happens on the love Kaija/went against orders/forgive parents (3 calm choices) path. Otherwise good ole dad actually says...ONLY Linnae was against it....

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Kaija is such a complex LI - and, I think, well-written for all three paths!

Spoiler: Kaija - Not an easy LI to Love

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Spoiler: Kaija very low love points

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On a different path than the above, with some love points, you get a Kaija in conflict with herself.

When I saw this image of Kaija getting into the shower (love points 3 or more and MC either chooses 'love' or 'don't know' when Jessica asks him if he still loves Kaija), it also made me doubt her faithfulness to the MC's heart:

Spoiler: Kaija tattoo phrase

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This makes me feel like Kaija has the attitude of 'deal with it and move on' and she is not going to second guess herself or worry about future consequences for her actions - no regrets.

And yet this sequence closes with two final images that say Kaija's tattoo may not represent her full feelings for the MC (love points 3 or more and the MC might love/still loves Kaija) - that the tattoo is more aspirational versus real - a way to avoid being hurt for choices made.

Spoiler: Kaija Final Shower Image and close

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The first time I played this fine AVN, I was more forgiving, and I did not encounter the callous version of Kaija or the MC's parents.

I broke up with her and did not feel close to her the way I started to feel about Elea and Fiona, but I chose to try to rebuild the friendship.

After the Finnabair story arc, I revisited the early story and found Much more hidden in the early storms of The Neverwhere Tales.

There are reefs and shallows hidden in these choices that will gut the hulls of the ships called Love and Hope, depending on the choices made by the pilot, the MC.

It made me think of this song:

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I can better understand those who choose later to be fully confrontational with the MC's parents and break up the family.

I know Jessica seems a bit naive and she did not seem to lose as much as the MC, but I can understand her desire to try to be a bridge back to something resembling a family - if that is even possible in the future.

I hope that there is a path where the MC can keep his relationship with Jessica even if he decides his parents must be kept at more than arm's length.

There is so much more of the story to learn and enjoy - What a Ride!!

Cheers!!

 

[SamualHand]

View attachment 3895191

He has a great helmet!

 

[Mike Hunt TG]

Small questions regarding Paths, only because I am trying to avoid spoilers and not read everything that was written before...

If, at some point, I do not select the choice that indicates a Path, does that mess it up with that particular LI? I am at the point where I can either declare to Kaija, take a step back, or some other vague response. If I am thinking like the MC, while pissed off at her, it would be unlikely that years of friendship and love could be easily dismissed with a shrug, but if I am thinking like the player, I don't want to lock in to one LI so soon when there are other intriguing prospects, like Elea, Fiona, and Medb.

I usually play my MC as a horndog because so many other VNs promote it but I am getting the impression from my cursory scan of earlier posts that TNT was not designed to be played that way. I actually prefer harem games for this reason - not having to say no. Not that I would expect it all to devolve into threesomes and whatnot, but the ability to be discreet and respectful and still maintain more than one LI (sure, real life is not like that for most people, but this is not real life) reduces the virtual agony of having to choose. I really hated when I had to make that choice in Being a DIK and appreciated it when the dev decided to introduce the harem option into Monster College. How can I choose between a hot werewolf and an adorable vampire?

I suppose my option would be to just create a save at everyone decision junction if needed...

 

[xapican]

I do have a quiet giggle to myself, that big Kaija fans like yourself and Xapi are playing the hate path, while I don't intend to.

To be clear, I don't like injustice, I like Kaija, as much as I like the other girls, the discussion with Def would be similar apasionate, with any other character.
It turned out to a runnig joke similar as we both have ongoing just out of jest and sport