VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Dr.TSoni]

Shall we call you "Pink"?

 

[Ceolag]

I've played through a decent chunk of Chapter 5. My initial response was very negative, partially because the transition from rescuing the MC's father to visiting Alfheimr was too sudden, but mostly because the time we spent with the Alfar felt relatively weightless. We definitely get a lot of great background on Alfar society in general, but we don't learn much about their relationship with humanity, we learn nothing about Medb, and the one character we do build a rapport with is sidelined by the cliffhanger.

The end result was equally unfulfilling on my next two run-throughs – I didn't have a Medb-focused save to test. Since it was pretty clear I'd missed something at the end of the chapter, however, I went back and tried to up my points with her to see what I could uncover. It took more effort than I expected before I finally unlocked Medb's scenes, but what a difference it made! It not only addressed a couple of my complaints head on, but it gave the whole chapter a much greater sense of cohesion and added a real sense of closure (if tragic) to the ending.

So how should I rate the chapter as a whole? If we take Medb's path into account, I do think this was a pretty strong update. But at the same time, I don't think my initial response was invalid when you DON'T see Medb's extended content. IMHO, that's a mistake. I get that Medb is the Alfr LI and it makes sense an MC who is close to Medb would learn more about her and her people than MC's with a poor relationship with her, but the balance – both in terms of how much content is gated and points required to open the gate – is wrong.

To discuss this further, we're going to have to dig into the spoilers.

Spoiler: Chapter 5 - The Importance of Dating Medb

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Good Things

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Bad Things

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Alright, I think that roughly sums up my thoughts. To reiterate, there's a lot to love in the chapter and I do think it will age well as later chapters fill in some of the missing pieces and sand down the rough edges. But I am still a little frustrated at how uninquisitive the MC is when it matters, and I feel strongly that the unlocking requirements for a key scene needs to be relaxed.

tl;dr We get some great background material and a few good character moments, but the chapter is too dependent on Medb's path to be satisfying.

Thanks for the long post, ename
I've taken my notes for future updates.
One thing I'd like to address is the ending part. I got that suggestion in Beta too. With pretty much the same reasoning.
It's not an oversight, it's done on purpose in this case. While I understand the demand of the player to see everything, it doesn't fit Medb's character.
She's the one in charge at that moment and it's her decision. Not Finnabair's, not MC's. And just because you're friends it doesn't automatically mean you're allowed to participate in that specific scene.
I had seen that happen a few times myself. Even very close friends or family weren't allowed to participate.
It would be completely against Medb's character to invite MC if she's not convinced about him.
The "MC could watch from a distance" is very close to a plothole imo. How would he know where and when? How would he get there while being considered almost an enemy at that point? Ailill could bring him in... against Medb's and potentially Mab's will?!

No... character motivation trumps everything in this scene for me. Every other solution would be a stretch at best.

HOWEVER:
I understand that it might be too hard to get that scene even if you're trying for it. With a wiggle room of 2 points and 1 point being very "unintuitive" to get there's not a lot of room for mistakes.
I'll drop the requirement for that scene to 13 points which is in line with all other LI's thresholds for their story (~75%).
The Steam version will get rolled out with that change and Patreon will get it with the next update (or a minor update...).

Thanks again for your long and exhaustive feedback.
Cheers,
Ceo

 

[Maviarab]

I understand that it might be too hard to get that scene even if you're trying for it. With a wiggle room of 2 points and 1 point being very "unintuitive" to get there's not a lot of room for mistakes.

It should be hard imo.

I'll drop the requirement for that scene to 13 points

See above. I wouldn't, making a precedent Ceo everytime someone cries like a little girl because they didn't get/see exactly what they think they should. Stick to 'your' vision and decisions. if it was easy to get, then what's the point of the impact of the scene?

 

[AlexMpog]

Isn't it like Medb's arc? Her daughter funeral I mean.
If you want to see this scene you should be invested in her and be on her route. I thought actually having 15 out of 17 is pretty reasonable.

And all those arguments - "I want to see all content in 1 playthrough" reminds of how harem-dedicated-players justify it, oh well.
I hope it won't make people cry here even more and start demanding other things, cause the more you give - the more people demand


Just my 2 cents

 

[Hungover00]

With a wiggle room of 2 points and 1 point being very "unintuitive" to get there's not a lot of room for mistakes.
I'll drop the requirement for that scene to 13 points which is in line with all other LI's thresholds for their story (~75%).
The Steam version will get rolled out with that change and Patreon will get it with the next update (or a minor update...).

Was the "unintuitive" part calling Alfar bitches?

 

[Maviarab]

Was the "unintuitive" part calling Alfar bitches?

Yes, I would assume so, though even then, is it really? She likes that you have balls, act impulsively and will somewhat stand your ground (you gain points for this allllllllll the way back in chapter 1 (so it's not a new phenomenom). Yes she will tell you to never say it again (with a smirk)...but is it really that unobvious?

 

[motseer]

Anyone who is concerned about maximizing points or not "missing out" just needs to pop URM into the game folder. It's not intrusive, doesn't wreck saves and you only look at the choices when you think you need to...

 

[Maviarab]

Anyone who is concerned about maximizing points or not "missing out" just needs to pop URM into the game folder. It's not intrusive, doesn't wreck saves and you only look at the choices when you think you need to...

Or...you could look at a walkthrough...

 

[Ceolag]

It should be hard imo.

See above. I wouldn't, making a precedent Ceo everytime someone cries like a little girl because they didn't get/see exactly what they think they should. Stick to 'your' vision and decisions. if it was easy to get, then what's the point of the impact of the scene?

Don't worry, I'll stick to my vision. Otherwise, I would've changed the whole setup in Beta.
Medb will still be harder to romance through decisions and points later on.

 

[motseer]

Or...you could look at a walkthrough...

View attachment 3923917

Well, yeah... forgive me. I'm new to that so, I didn't think to promote it. It is definitely an excellent solution as well. Plus you pick up on a bit more lore and story insight along the way... Of course we are speaking of Maviarab's excellent Walkthrough found on the OP.

 

[Tremonia]

I'll drop the requirement for that scene to 13 points

You know I was one of them who said the end scene should be easier to get. We had this conversation and all your points you made, and some of them you repeated here, are valid and after several playthroughs I made I'm saying you are right. That's why I want to make a big THIS under this statement of Maviarab:

I wouldn't, making a precedent Ceo everytime someone cries like a little girl because they didn't get/see exactly what they think they should. Stick to 'your' vision and decisions. if it was easy to get, then what's the point of the impact of the scene?

Ceo, don't change it to 13 points. If you really feel the need to make it easier, make it 14 points (minus the "bitch" point), but I think you shouldn't change it. The more time I play this Chapter and the more I learn about Medb and the Ljosálfar culture, the more I believe the current state of the requirements fits the best.

Don't worry, I'll stick to my vision.

That I've never questioned and I'm happy you do. I've seen too many really good games going downhill after devs changed their visions to please demanding players. The best stories are those which are unique and yours is, because you do it your own way.

 

[Hungover00]

Yes, I would assume so, though even then, is it really? She likes that you have balls, act impulsively and will somewhat stand your ground (you gain points for this allllllllll the way back in chapter 1 (so it's not a new phenomenom). Yes she will tell you to never say it again (with a smirk)...but is it really that unobvious?

It makes sense once you do it and see her response, but why would you pick that unless you were trying to piss her off? That's a classic 'task failed successfully' type scenario.

 

[xapican]

About the funeral scene, I'm pretty neutral,I had no problems to get it, also don't really understood what was Enames point, I agree about bringing up the Information that Finabair is the daughter, I think that should be adressed, at some point.
My question is if someone without any for me understoodable reason, decides not to go the Ljosalfar, or to just close that door what alternative has this player to achieve the Story outcome, or to prevent a war, ?

 

[Maviarab]

My question is if someone without any for me understoodable reason, decides not to go the Ljosalfar, or to just close that door what alternative has this player to achieve the Story outcome, or to prevent a war, ?

I'm not sure the war actually can/will be preventable. The only difference in the paths will be if you are an enemy of the Alfar, on good terms with them and whether or not you're going to actively help the Templars either way.

 

[Deleted member 1838060]

I was looking at some of the files in the game and came across this dialogue, but can not figure out how to get it play in the game. I think this is a better ending to Chapter 5

Ceolag
Is this play through in a future revision? I personally think it would add a new dimension to the game between the Alfars and the Templars... just saying. Keep up the good work.

 

[Malicre]

I was looking at some of the files in the game and came across this dialogue, but can not figure out how to get it play in the game. I think this is a better ending to Chapter 5

Ceolag
Is this play through in a future revision? I personally think it would add a new dimension to the game between the Alfars and the Templars... just saying. Keep up the good work.

View attachment 3924785

In my head i always thought it would of been neat had finnabair gotten pregnant just from that one encounter but it was probably scrapped. Can't imagine the dev pulling some kind of 5d chess move were she got pregnant and transferred the egg to someone else all within a 1-2 day period.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Yes, I would assume so, though even then, is it really? She likes that you have balls, act impulsively and will somewhat stand your ground (you gain points for this allllllllll the way back in chapter 1 (so it's not a new phenomenom). Yes she will tell you to never say it again (with a smirk)...but is it really that unobvious?

I was at 16 out of 17 points for Medb and, with the Walkthrough, I was able to get the missed point when I chose not to refer the Alfar women as bitches...

I think it would be enjoyable if, much further down the road, Medb asks him about favorite moments he's shared with the Alfar and he told her:

'I liked that you smirked after telling me to never call you a bitch again. It showed me a sense of humor that I might some day enjoy.'

Whether or not we will get that level of lighthearted moment any time soon given the high likelihood of war is doubtful, but If we get that down the road, it will be something I enjoy and recognize as the MC and Medb having moved far from the beginning of their relationship.

I think I will break out the champagne when the MC points out something so humorous to Medb that she laughs so hard she has to hold onto him - shared humor being so important to any good relationship, especially one that grows into a romance.

IMO, that kind of laughter accepts vulnerability and clearly shows connection.

Cheers!!

 

[Maviarab]

I was at 16 out of 17 points for Medb and, with the Walkthrough, I was able to get the missed point when I chose not to refer the Alfar women as bitches...

I think it would be enjoyable if, much further down the road, Medb asks him about favorite moments he's shared with the Alfar and he told her:

'I liked that you smirked after telling me to never call you a bitch again. It showed me a sense of humor that I might some day enjoy.'

Whether or not we will get that level of lighthearted moment any time soon given the high likelihood of war is doubtful, but If we get that down the road, it will be something I enjoy and recognize as the MC and Medb having moved far from the beginning of their relationship.

I think I will break out the champagne when the MC points out something so humorous to Medb that she laughs so hard she has to hold onto him - shared humor being so important to any good relationship, especially one that grows into a romance.

IMO, that kind of laughter accepts vulnerability and clearly shows connection.

Cheers!!

Ohhh I would love that. But then I'm a sucker for being an old romantic so...

 

[xapican]

I was at 16 out of 17 points for Medb and, with the Walkthrough, I was able to get the missed point when I chose not to refer the Alfar women as bitches...

I think it would be enjoyable if, much further down the road, Medb asks him about favorite moments he's shared with the Alfar and he told her:

'I liked that you smirked after telling me to never call you a bitch again. It showed me a sense of humor that I might some day enjoy.'

Whether or not we will get that level of lighthearted moment any time soon given the high likelihood of war is doubtful, but If we get that down the road, it will be something I enjoy and recognize as the MC and Medb having moved far from the beginning of their relationship.

I think I will break out the champagne when the MC points out something so humorous to Medb that she laughs so hard she has to hold onto him - shared humor being so important to any good relationship, especially one that grows into a romance.

IMO, that kind of laughter accepts vulnerability and clearly shows connection.

Cheers!!

Oh shure, just tell her that Kaija is an inocent, honest and unpoluted lamb and sooo femenine......

 

[Quetzzz]

Ceo, don't change it to 13 points. If you really feel the need to make it easier, make it 14 points (minus the "bitch" point), but I think you shouldn't change it. The more time I play this Chapter and the more I learn about Medb and the Ljosálfar culture, the more I believe the current state of the requirements fits the best.

Alternatively, have another option (besides the bitches-one) also give +1, like "And you're still rude."

In my playthrough I lucked out with the "bitches"-option. I only tried it to see how Alex would say it, and if it would become a nasty discussion. But this made me decide to stay with that choice:
Alex: "Snitch."
Finn: "What does that word mean? I don't know it."
Alex: "It means you're good at communicating with others."

I just like Alex's reply here, it also shows a bit of his growth. A few weeks back, he would've gone into his shell and apologized instead.