VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Dessolos]

I don't hate Kaija overall but I certainly don't like her. It depends on the path as to what happened, and how she felt about it. Since I'm playing her love path as well, I certain dislike her as an LI on that path and loathe what she does on the other paths. I certainly don't trust her on any path. In saying that I do see good traits in her, like loyalty and trustworthiness, just not towards the MC, it is all towards the Templars. She is conflicted on the Kaija path but for now she is still in the Templar camp. If it was a RL situation I certain would never trust her again on any path. I'd be bye bye and on my way, even on the Kaija path.

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

 

[Malicre]

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

We can talk beliefs and morality all you want but trust is something that once gone is hard to re obtain and Kaija lost that in droves. You can still keep her in your life as a work buddy but most wouldn't re open that relationship.

 

[Dessolos]

We can talk beliefs and morality all you want but trust is something that once gone is hard to re obtain and Kaija lost that in droves. You can still keep her in your life as a work buddy but most wouldn't re open that relationship.

honestly she never lost my trust at least completely maybe on the hate path when I play it.

you can shit on her a bit, she is an adult and should be able to make choice herself, like being honest with her childhood best friend. but she was basically enlisted by his parents from childhood as the perfect kid to brainwash into the order. she is an adult and makes decisions, but her reasoning and loyalty are ingrained into her by years of conditioning, reinforced by the "family" aspect of the templars that her personal homelife lacked.

MC can not trust her, but can't really hate her either. my thoughts at least

This is pretty much why I see her parents being the ones to blame more. The trust thing is complicated for me , as I'm able to separate trust in her case into 2 categories. Trust for the MC within a relationship and trust when it comes to other matters that might involve the templars. it I see her being completely trustworthy within a relationship be it as a friend or girlfriend. The other one im more mixed on. If on the love path potentially even on the friend path to a smaller extent I see her being more trustworthy over an order the templars might give her. Assuming it's something she completely disagrees with that could get the MC killed or put it in danger. Yet her loyalty does blind her judgement like with the fight with the Hell spawn. So I feel like when it comes to the templars she is and isn't trustworthy at the same time at least to me.

 

[duckydoodoo]

And while all of this was happening Kaija still didn't say shit. I can actually forgive the parents more then her, at least their reasoning is simple, to keep their kids safe where as Kaija's lie was made out of loyalty to the templars and your family, not you and if the situation didn't arise she would still be lying to you.

She's literally on my shit list, ranks right down there with Steph from LoF who's another character who thought she was doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

you can shit on her a bit, she is an adult and should be able to make choice herself, like being honest with her childhood best friend. but she was basically enlisted by his parents from childhood as the perfect kid to brainwash into the order. she is an adult and makes decisions, but her reasoning and loyalty are ingrained into her by years of conditioning, reinforced by the "family" aspect of the templars that her personal homelife lacked.

MC can not trust her, but can't really hate her either. my thoughts at least

 

[Malicre]

you can shit on her a bit, she is an adult and should be able to make choice herself, like being honest with her childhood best friend. but she was basically enlisted by his parents from childhood as the perfect kid to brainwash into the order. she is an adult and makes decisions, but her reasoning and loyalty are ingrained into her by years of conditioning, reinforced by the "family" aspect of the templars that her personal homelife lacked.

MC can not trust her, but can't really hate her either. my thoughts at least

Being loyal to the templars = brainwashing

Y'all will make any excuses for her. I can't anymore, you win.

 

[nitkonikic]

Being loyal to the templars = brainwashing

Y'all will make any excuses for her. I can't anymore, you win.

I absolutely hate her guts, but I'm with him here, she is brainwashed.
Heck, one of the confrontational choices in chapter 5 literaly calls out family they're sending kids to get brainwashed.

She sees Templars as perfect, follows any order to a letter, and believes everything they do is just and right.
That's why there is such a huge difference between love and other paths.

On love (or just very high score, just don't kiss her) she starts doubting some things , seeing flaws where previously she went with the flow because she knows nothing else.

This is the order that's fine with other organisations killing innocents just because they found out about Neverwhere. They think that's fine. They train kids from young age that is fine. They train them to believe Templars are humanities best defense. And then you take a look at their inner council and they're just bunch of lying cunts.
Ever played Fallout? Templars are Brotherhood of Steel. All power to themselves, under the pretense it's for the betterment of others.

And those who grow up in that environment? They know nothing but what they were told.

So yes, fuck Kaija, but she is brainwashed. And my MC is too tired to give a shit about it. Either she learns on her own, or she can rot with mommy and daddy dear far away from MC. They cared better for her anyway, probably won't even notice MC is gone.

 

[Real Kreten]

As I am preferring understanding approach, I took 4 calm and 1 confrontational stances. 1 confrontational was because of their was because of their attempt to use Linnea example to defend lying as good thing.

As I am preferring understanding approach, I need a little help from you to understand why to burn bridges? If I ignore that I don't see what it should be good for. I am finding some of confrontational stances mentally retarded in dialog with parents. Taking calmer approach isn't natural for everybody, but it looks to me, that you need to have very low emotional intelligence to go fully on confrontation.

MC make distance between him and parent on calm approach as well. So it isn't necessary to go "burn bridges, burn". And yes, that what I agree with you. He need to separate from them and has several reasons for it.
-It is better to start new and building new trust after they understand that old orders does not apply.
-Parents are Templars and Templars are compromised, without processes to clean themselves or or prevent questionable decisions.
-MC has more space to act as independent mediator in present situation.



To last point. I took "neutral" choice in discussion with nightingale. However, MC didn't deny being Templar once. "Fuck the Templar" has far better text on this.
So although I am taking neutral stance with Templars, it look like I should use "fuck the Templars" so alfars understand my affinity better.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

I was the same. Kept people in my life (especially family) who did the wrong thing by me and the disrespect got worse. They developed an attitude that I would always forgive no matter what they did. Not any more much older and wiser now. Think of it as a type of cancer.

We can talk beliefs and morality all you want but trust is something that once gone is hard to re obtain and Kaija lost that in droves. You can still keep her in your life as a work buddy but most wouldn't re open that relationship.

100% agree

 

[metamorphMP]

I absolutely hate her guts, but I'm with him here, she is brainwashed.
Heck, one of the confrontational choices in chapter 5 literaly calls out family they're sending kids to get brainwashed.

She sees Templars as perfect, follows any order to a letter, and believes everything they do is just and right.
That's why there is such a huge difference between love and other paths.

On love (or just very high score, just don't kiss her) she starts doubting some things , seeing flaws where previously she went with the flow because she knows nothing else.

This is the order that's fine with other organisations killing innocents just because they found out about Neverwhere. They think that's fine. They train kids from young age that is fine. They train them to believe Templars are humanities best defense. And then you take a look at their inner council and they're just bunch of lying cunts.
Ever played Fallout? Templars are Brotherhood of Steel. All power to themselves, under the pretense it's for the betterment of others.

And those who grow up in that environment? They know nothing but what they were told.

So yes, fuck Kaija, but she is brainwashed. And my MC is too tired to give a shit about it. Either she learns on her own, or she can rot with mommy and daddy dear far away from MC. They cared better for her anyway, probably won't even notice MC is gone.

I get the part abut brainwashing, agree on 100%... buuuut what about some common sense, like simple things - what is bad and what is not, she is an adult and it's not like she spent her whole life in a tower or where ever locked out from the world.

She literally admits that this whole fake relationship made her mission easier, it was very convenient and the way she says it - is soooo... I dunno like something so usual and common, damn, that was so fucking off putting, and her cold behaviour after - like mission is accomplished - bye bye)) I am still gonna play her other paths to see the difference but I don't keep my hopes up.

 

[nitkonikic]

I get the part abut brainwashing, agree on 100%... buuuut what about some common sense, like simple things - what is bad and what is not, she is an adult and it's not like she spent her whole life in a tower or where ever locked out from the world.

She literally admits that this whole fake relationship made her mission easier, it was very convenient and the way she says it - is soooo... I dunno like something so usual and common, damn, that was so fucking off putting, and her cold behaviour after - like mission is accomplished - bye bye)) I am still gonna play her other paths to see the difference but I don't keep my hopes up.

Thus last part of my post.
She lives as part of real world, same as MC.
She is not closed inside temple/castle with no access to outer world.
She needs to use her own brain and recognize the faults.

Non-love path shows her being literally unable to recognize the massive fuckup that is seducing someone (for few fucking years!!!) to make a job easy. That goes beyond brainwashing, that's on her.

So while I strongly recommend playing high-score Kaija route, I will never run full romance path with her.

High-score (misses 1-2 points only) doesn't mix with any other girl so far, so you can run it alongside one of other girls.
Don't need to romance her at all, just do all friendly options and don't go for kiss on 1-2 occassions where it's possible.

There is a lot of personality in Kaija, shame to miss it.

 

[Tremonia]

Being loyal to the templars = brainwashing

That makes her a victim.

Y'all will make any excuses for her.

Understanding her isn't the same as excusing her.

I can't anymore, you win.

A discussion isn't a fight. When you think in terms of win and lose you've already lost in a way. Just saying.

 

[Maviarab]

They still lied to you your whole life, neither did they prepare the MC/Jess for anything

because they wanted you not to be part, of that world where you could get killed in a skirmish with Alfars or Hellspawns , ambushed by some shaddy and powerfull organiztions, or Neverwhere drug cartells.

Were they doing it out of a mistaken ideal of protection or because they don't respect you?

And yet....we almost end up dead...ion the fucking streets...with a hole in our head...like a damn dog. Yeah, thanks mom/dad....

almost like they were a cult

The real Templars were really.


Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags, only Linnae was against the relationship. Only...>Linnae....dad was only against it if you are all flowers and pretty unicorns with kaija and your pops....

Let that sink in....

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags, only Linnae was against the relationship. Only...>Linnae....dad was only against it if you are all flowers and pretty unicorns with kaija and your pops....

Let that sink in....

Really? I hadn't noticed

 

[motseer]

And yet....we almost end up dead...ion the fucking streets...with a hole in our head...like a damn dog. Yeah, thanks mom/dad....

The real Templars were really.


Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags, only Linnae was against the relationship. Only...>Linnae....dad was only against it if you are all flowers and pretty unicorns with kaija and your pops....

Let that sink in....

Yep, in my heart of hearts, I absolutely agree. There are as many reasons as there are people involved for hiding the truth from MC and his sister and yet, the thing they feared most, still happened. He was almost killed. There was only one difference between the two scenarios. Since he was ignorant of the situation, he was confused and unprepared when it happened.

 

[xapican]

The real Templars were really.

Sorry, might correct you in that one, they were an order, formed from the cisterzians, nowadays they are an filantropic organization like "Rotary" "Lions" "Freemasons" (these were the builders from their castells) "Rosicruzianum"
The acusation that they were a cult, was brought up by the French King to size their treasure, and get them excomunated from the church.

 

[xapican]

Might also remind everyone, don't get more forgiveness points than chaos points in the talk and depending on Kaija flags,

Don't get the messege, what do you mean ?

 

[Raziel_8]

I honestly kind of got the impression Kaija and other templars that grew up and trained with them from a young age were most likely brainwashed to some extent , almost like they were a cult. Otherwise it's hard for me to understand the loyalty someone like Kaija would have to the templars.

Leaving my utter disdain for the templars aside for some moments...

Hm, i wouldn't necessarily say brainwashed, i think it's more of a natural development, at least mostly.
As you said, she grew up with them, trained, fought, bleed with them, a shared cause. I think most people in that situation would have developed a strong feeling of loyalty, comradery and group identity.
That the whole thing is a secret organization just strengthen these aspects, as they really are the only people you can be fully open with, trust and understand what you are going through. This isn't really reserved for cults.

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

I was similar, until i wasn't.
At one point it was just enough and needed to do what is good for me, cutting people off which aren't is healthy imo.
Also it doesn't really need to be a permanent thing, some people do have the capability or will to change...like some of my family, needed a decade, but it is a far better and healthier relationship we have now...for the rest, i don't miss them.

 

[pitao]

Don't get the messege, what do you mean ?

There is no need to get the message, it is just a player opinion biased by their own experiences and view of the world, I respect it but I have a completely different (and also biased) view and experience in such matters. Holding grudges/hate and imagining what would happen if their decision have been different and being over confrontational never leads to good outcomes and in that I completely agree with sis, having an open mind and leaving the door open seems imho a much better path for everyone involved, after all the past can't be changed, only the future can. That doesn't mean "we" can't get hurt or angry by those decisions, but hate never, too much of a strong word in this situation.
With that said I went in 1 of my 5 save paths being confrontational and burning the bridges of reconciliation but just by pure curiosity of what that path will lead in terms of content in upcoming updates.

Edit : Sometimes I wish we had a "Facepalm" post reaction instead of "Wow" for some oversimplistic ignorant remarks I see in this threads I don't even see the point to reply to them, it would just end up in a pointless confrontation discussion because we both are too stubborn to let go of our views

 

[SamualHand]

#RelationshipAdvice
View attachment 3955535

It's called Alpha!

 

[Maviarab]

Sorry, might correct you in that one, they were an order, formed from the cisterzians, nowadays they are an filantropic organization like "Rotary" "Lions" "Freemasons" (these were the builders from their castells) "Rosicruzianum"
The acusation that they were a cult, was brought up by the French King to size their treasure, and get them excomunated from the church.

The word 'cult' can be used to describe many things. Templars...religion...idiots in a farm house with a suicide pact....

The finer details matter little in reality as they all have one common denominator. Absolute faith and belief in what they are pushing.

Don't get the messege, what do you mean ?

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As opposed to:

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