VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Knightcvel]

I have a ticket for their concert in December, giving it away for free.
How can they sing about Templars knowing what Kaija did?

Maybe we are very niche...

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

well, what can I say, seems you picked other dialoge options in the Headquarters than me, anyway, but since I'm handicaped and not native english speaker my reading comprehension is surely not so good, maybe I should wait till this is translated to German or Spanish so I can understand.

The 3 main dialogue themes MC can pick are
-Doesn't matter I still love you let's stay together
- Look, I'm mad and hiding these big things as my girlfriend means trust is hard. Let's pause this and see how we feel later.
-Fuck you bitch, we still have to work together but we're done.

But what happens no matter what before that, is that even If she loves you she still goes on her rant showing she has a deeper reason why she is how she is but deflects by reaffirming her loyalty.

Spoiler

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[Pixillin']

The 3 main dialogue themes MC can pick are
-Doesn't matter I still love you let's stay together
- Look, I'm mad and hiding these big things as my girlfriend means trust is hard. Let's pause this and see how we feel later.
-Fuck you bitch, we still have to work together but we're done.

But what happens no matter what before that, is that even If she loves you she still goes on her rant showing she has a deeper reason why she is how she is but deflects by reaffirming her loyalty.

Spoiler

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Yeah, that's all bullshit. They are cowards and have no honor.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Yeah, that's all bullshit. They are cowards and have no honor.

Agreed, but that bitch is seeing what she wants to see and nothing else.
Leave it to someone who compulsively lies at every given point of her entire life to believe in delusions.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Yeah by "deeper reason" I don't mean what she said at face value. She feels this way for a reason and vocalizes it in the heat of the moment. She needs for everything to be worth it and she needs to reaffirm whenever pressed or things start to fall apart.

Much like how Mebd needs for her brother to have been killed by templars even if it isn't true.

 

[Krytax123]

The 3 main dialogue themes MC can pick are
-Doesn't matter I still love you let's stay together
- Look, I'm mad and hiding these big things as my girlfriend means trust is hard. Let's pause this and see how we feel later.
-Fuck you bitch, we still have to work together but we're done.

But what happens no matter what before that, is that even If she loves you she still goes on her rant showing she has a deeper reason why she is how she is but deflects by reaffirming her loyalty.

Spoiler

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Even as someone who doesnt hate kaija, i have to say this deflection was piss poor lol

good old yes woman.

Why the fuck is her ass focused during a somewhat serious conversation the whole time tho?

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

I talk a lot of shit about Kaija and I mean it mostly (like 75%). She's a shitty girlfriend.

Yeah. She knows.


I don't know how many people here have done the post meeting scene with High love points with her, but they should. Changes the course of the conversation in a few places and she even says that she regrets things and is thinking about changing her priorities and whether orders matter more than loved ones.

 

[Krytax123]

Yeah. She knows.
View attachment 4782680

I don't know how many people here have done the post meeting scene with High love points with her, but they should. Changes the course of the conversation in a few places and she even says that she regrets things and is thinking about changing her priorities and whether orders matter more than loved ones.

Thats why i dont hate kaija and have a path for her.

I dont like people who just blindly follow orders and even less people who are not loyal to their friends/loved ones. But i see her as rather misguided than traitorous.

Shes so young and groomed as a templar since such a young age, she kinda got fucked by stupid, but imo she still can be fixed.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Yeah. She knows.
View attachment 4782680

I don't know how many people here have done the post meeting scene with High love points with her, but they should. Changes the course of the conversation in a few places and she even says that she regrets things and is thinking about changing her priorities and whether orders matter more than loved ones.

I mean to be fair, the fact that she even has to think about changing her priorities on the supposed 'high love' route makes me dislike her even more.

I've met a lot of people who prioritize their work or misguided beliefs over anything else and even if they're a victim in their own right of being coerced/brainwashed into it, it doesn't make them less shitty of a human being. No matter the intentions, what matters is what they've done and said, which in her case doesn't exactly point towards a person you'd want to be in a relationship with, let alone even being just a friend.

Hell, I wouldn't even want to be her coworker because it's clear that she'd be the type of person to stumble across evidence of the Templars doing some forced eugenic insanity and she'd go "MAYBE THEY HAD GOOD INTENTIONS, YOU CAN'T JUDGE 'EM".

 

[Pixillin']

Yeah. She knows.
View attachment 4782680

I don't know how many people here have done the post meeting scene with High love points with her, but they should. Changes the course of the conversation in a few places and she even says that she regrets things and is thinking about changing her priorities and whether orders matter more than loved ones.

Again, don't really care about her personal journey. That bridge is burnt too. I only have a single save in this now - lots of points with Medb - did the full Finn route, and the only other person I have any real points with is Kate, the bartender. (Completely blew off the work ladies, and Fionna, was polite to Kari but that's all, burned bridges with the parents, and I don't think I have any points with any of the Templars.)

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

I mean to be fair, the fact that she even has to think about changing her priorities on the supposed 'high love' route makes me dislike her even more.

I've met a lot of people who prioritize their work or misguided beliefs over anything else and even if they're a victim in their own right of being coerced/brainwashed into it, it doesn't make them less shitty of a human being. No matter the intentions, what matters is what they've done and said, which in her case doesn't exactly point towards a person you'd want to be in a relationship with, let alone even being just a friend.

Hell, I wouldn't even want to be her coworker because it's clear that she'd be the type of person to stumble across evidence of the Templars doing some forced eugenic insanity and she'd go "MAYBE THEY HAD GOOD INTENTIONS, YOU CAN'T JUDGE 'EM".

I suppose it's a matter of how understanding one is about the girls in question. Would you feel differently if you were introduced to her after she changes her views?
Fiona was a monster just like her parents for awhile until she changed and turned from that mode of thinking. But we meet her after all this.

I always thought having MC start in a relationship is a bad idea. Colors peoples view too soon. But some devs love doing it for some reason.

 

[Ciaran8023]

I suppose it's a matter of how understanding one is about the girls in question. Would you feel differently if you were introduced to her after she changes her views?
Fiona was a monster just like her parents for awhile until she changed and turned from that mode of thinking. But we meet her after all this.

If I found that she had a supposed boyfriend while she still had those views, I wouldn't feel different at all.
There's a difference between being misguided and subjecting yourself to your own delusions, it's entirely another when you lie, gaslight and string along someone for years.

Kind of a silly argument to make, vast majority of behaviours or decisions are only problematic as fuck when it involves innocent people, I think we all know this, so it was a weird question to ask.
For example, if I get a girlfriend and I found out that she systematically cheated on her ex for years beforehand, I sure as fuck would yeet her to the curb as it involve someone innocent getting hurt because of their idiocy, on top of not being able to trust her at all. Same applies to Kaiju, even if she "changes her views", you can't trust her word for it considering she lied to the MC for years upon years. Trust is far gone.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

If I found that she had a supposed boyfriend while she still had those views, I wouldn't feel different at all.
There's a difference between being misguided and subjecting yourself to your own delusions, it's entirely another when you lie, gaslight and string along someone for years.

Kind of a silly argument to make, vast majority of behaviours or decisions are only problematic as fuck when it involves innocent people, I think we all know this, so it was a weird question to ask.

Do you remember Fiona's backstory? Her family tormented and toyed with innocent people. And she was like them. People around here seem to give her a pass.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Do you remember Fiona's backstory? Her family tormented and toyed with innocent people. And she was like them. People around here seem to give her a pass.

Never said I did though, so again, strange argument to make.
The same applies to her, she can get fucked. I'd say that Kaiju is worse off however given that Fiona and her family didn't give the pretense of trying to be helpful (IIRC atleast, haven't got the game installed nor did I interact with Fiona much so I can't really double check it).
There's evil, and then there's evil that disguises itself as kindness.

EDIT- Now I remember Fiona, and no I VERY much doubt that she or her family tried to pass themselves off as kind friends to their victims.

 

[Pixillin']

If I found that she had a supposed boyfriend while she still had those views, I wouldn't feel different at all.
There's a difference between being misguided and subjecting yourself to your own delusions, it's entirely another when you lie, gaslight and string along someone for years.

Kind of a silly argument to make, vast majority of behaviours or decisions are only problematic as fuck when it involves innocent people, I think we all know this, so it was a weird question to ask.
For example, if I get a girlfriend and I found out that she systematically cheated on her ex for years beforehand, I sure as fuck would yeet her to the curb as it involve someone innocent getting hurt because of their idiocy, on top of not being able to trust her at all. Same applies to Kaiju, even if she "changes her views", you can't trust her word for it considering she lied to the MC for years upon years. Trust is far gone.

Like I said, in my save I don't have a relationship with Fionna either and part of the problem with Kajia, even if she's "starting to see the light" is that she is still lying. She hasn't said why she was supposed to get close to MC, because she wasn't there as a bodyguard. Can people change? Very occasionally. Should you hang around and wait for a horribly flawed person to change? Absolutely not. That is the story of just about every toxic relationship ever.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Never said I did though, so again, strange argument to make.
The same applies to her, she can get fucked. I'd say that Kaiju is worse off however given that Fiona and her family didn't give the pretense of trying to be helpful (IIRC atleast, haven't got the game installed nor did I interact with Fiona much so I can't really double check it).
There's evil, and then there's evil that disguises itself as kindness.

Never said you did. Just seeing what you think.

Fiona and her family tormented thousands of innocents and would play games with them and even lied to them to start a riot to watch the chaos just for fun.

The "no redemption" thought is difficult to maintain when you are dealing with near imortal beings. Unless we should just kill them all I guess. A common theme in this thread

 

[Ciaran8023]

Like I said, in my save I don't have a relationship with Fionna either and part of the problem with Kajia, even if she's "starting to see the light" is that she is still lying. She hasn't said why she was supposed to get close to MC, because she wasn't there as a bodyguard. Can people change? Very occasionally. Should you hang around and wait for a horribly flawed person to change? Absolutely not. That is the story of just about every toxic relationship ever.

Pretty much. That and you can't actually trust them to have changed, once trust is broken, you can't restore it again in the vast majority of cases. At that point, the relationship or whatever it was, is straight up over and you'd have to start all over again if you want to try.
Sure there are people out there that have 'forgiven' people who have betrayed them and their trust, but the relationship is never the same again.

But yeah, it's just TOO much systematic lying and gaslighting for there to be any chance of redemption honestly.

Fiona and her family tormented thousands of innocents and would play games with them and even lied to them to start a riot to watch the chaos just for fun.

Yeah I do remember that, and as said, they weren't exactly people portraying as friends of the victims. Especially since they're essentially 'nobles' and view literally everyone else that isn't of a similar lineage as pawns and sacrificial lambs.
Very much different from Kaiju's example.

 

[mahsta]

neat story and good game

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Yeah I do remember that, and as said, they weren't exactly people portraying as friends of the victims. Especially since they're essentially 'nobles' and view literally everyone else that isn't of a similar lineage as pawns and sacrificial lambs.
Very much different from Kaiju's example.

In modern day it's hard to think in these terms, but in a nobility system they have a responsibility to those who serve them and in return for their service they are responsible for providing and defending them. It's a system of trust and responsibility so I'd say trust was breached.

But again it's easy to be jaded and say that's silly in modern day but that's the understanding that people felt back then.
Again like I said grudges and no redemption is difficult in a world with near immortal beings...unless we just kill them all.

 

[Ciaran8023]

In modern day it's hard to think in these terms, but in a nobility system they have a responsibility to those who serve them and in return for their service they are responsible for providing and defending them. It's a system of trust and responsibility so I'd say trust was breached.

Ah yes, history is fraught with nobles obeying the law of the land and not doing wrong by their subjects.
I mean feudalism was a massive success with no one getting exploited.

Let's be real, nobility were the billionaires of today but with even less restrictions. There's a reason why you had the French revolution, and shit like the African colonization by the Dutch/French/Spanish/Italians/Brits etc. Those weren't decided by the common folk, so saying that nobles had a responsibility as if trying to say that Fiona's family didn't do what the VAST majority of nobles did back in the day is a bit facetious.
It's also, still, VASTLY different from an interpersonal responsibility and trust.

But again it's easy to be jaded and say that's silly in modern day but that's the understanding that people felt back then.
Again like I said grudges and no redemption is difficult in a world with near immortal beings...unless we just kill them all.

I mean here's hoping we can just off the Templar's later on. There's like one singular individual in the Templar's atm that I'd say would be worth reaching out a hand to, and that's about it.