VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Pixillin']

I mean here's hoping we can just off the Templar's later on. There's like one singular individual in the Templar's atm that I'd say would be worth reaching out a hand to, and that's about it.

I wouldn't spare even one. Eliminate any chance of rebuilding, and just torch it all.

 

[ename144]

even when she “tells the truth” she’s still lying or she’s really bad at her job. What kind of bodyguard is only there a day or two a week, out late most nights and can’t even respond to a text from the person she’s supposed to be guarding. She wasn’t there to protect MC and tbh the first time I played I was ready to dump her before I knew about the Templars just because she was so absent.

We all have our own opinion on Kaija and there's little point debating it yet again, but the blame for her absentee bodyguard routine has to be placed squarely on the shoulders of the Templar leadership. Kaija doesn't get to choose her own assignments. She takes her orders from the Council, and those bozos are the ones who can't pick a priority and stick to it. It's so bad that they actually order her NOT to protect him when the mercs try to kidnap him in chapter 1 (if you have high Love points with her), even though they later act as though the MC is far too valuable to risk visiting Neverwhere.

Linnae is better than him, but as I told before, when he is acting as a ruler he has a final say and the council is just to advise him. In his absence they took the reins and as the decision making depends of voting they started endless discussions about even the smallers things. If you put one in charge, they will run a lot smoother

She certainly has better judgement than the MC's dad, but leadership is more than just judgement. Coming up with a good plan doesn't do much good if you can't get anyone to carry it out. Rank is all well and good, but sometimes you need to persuade people. Linnae not only failed to do that, she up and quit the instant she needed to defend her actions - despite those actions panning out.

As for the rest of the council, the Stathanator wanted to charge blindly at the elves the instant he learned they were keeping the Grandmaster as a hostage - the same elves that scared him shitless when one of their queens showed up to a prisoner exchange. He's an idiot who shouldn't be in charge of asking if a customer wants fries with their meal. Mary and Philip clear that bar, but only because crippling inaction is preferable to suicide. So far they've done nothing but dither in the face of disaster.

Is the MC's dad better than that? I hope so; there's barely any room to be worse! At the very least, the Alfar seemed to think it was worth kidnapping him to weaken the Templars, which implies the Templars must have been capable of something while he was in charge.

 

[Pixillin']

We all have our own opinion on Kaija and there's little point debating it yet again, but the blame for her absentee bodyguard routine has to be placed squarely on the shoulders of the Templar leadership. Kaija doesn't get to choose her own assignments. She takes her orders from the Council, and those bozos are the ones who can't pick a priority and stick to it. It's so bad that they actually order her NOT to protect him when the mercs try to kidnap him in chapter 1 (if you have high Love points with her), even though they later act as though the MC is far too valuable to risk visiting Neverwhere.

But see I don't even believe that she was supposed to be a bodyguard. There have been too many lies and she did to bad a job of being a bodyguard. I'm just assuming that she, and MC's parents are still lying about everything.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Damn. Elduriel beat me. It ended up being Kaija that started the old war again.

Yeah, this thread is always pointless. Like always this thread is kill kill kill kill kill kill. I don't trust blah blah blah.

No one in this is trustworthy and people lie even to themselves.

I really hope the dev reveals that the elves did horrific duplicitous crimes for no justifiable reason so that people won't know who are the "good guys" even though picking sides is not the point of this game.

 

[Ciaran8023]

She certainly has better judgement than the MC's dad, but leadership is more than just judgement. Coming up with a good plan doesn't do much good if you can't get anyone to carry it out. Rank is all well and good, but sometimes you need to persuade people. Linnae not only failed to do that, she up and quit the instant she needed to defend her actions - despite those actions panning out.

I just want to chime in; having someone with good judgement and alright leadership is far better than mediocre judgement and good leadership.
You can teach someone to be an alright leader, you cannot teach someone to have good judgement if it's something they're poor at to begin with.

But see I don't even believe that she was supposed to be a bodyguard. There have been too many lies and she did to bad a job of being a bodyguard. I'm just assuming that she, and MC's parents are still lying about everything.

I'm not even assuming, I'm fairly certain that there's a lot that MC's parents aren't telling him. As for her, every other word she says towards the MC has already been a lie for the last like 10 years of his life so.. yeah, if anyone believes her then I have a bridge to sell them.

I really hope the dev reveals that the elves did horrific duplicitous crimes for no justifiable reason so that people won't know who are the "good guys" even though picking sides is not the point of this game.

Wasn't it already pretty obvious that they've done some horrendous shit towards humans?
Neither side is good here, but one is competent yet vindictive (the elves) and the other is incompetent, belligerent and prone to almost sacrificing their own people for no gain (the Templars).

Like yeah, neither option will be good if you had to choose, but I am fairly heavily swaying towards one of them right now and I don't see it changing anytime soon, even with the elves having done fucked up shit.

 

[Knightcvel]

Do you remember Fiona's backstory? Her family tormented and toyed with innocent people. And she was like them. People around here seem to give her a pass.

But she did moves to make up for this. She is in a route for correct her wrongs. That's not the case with Kaija.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Wasn't it already pretty obvious that they've done some horrendous shit towards humans?
Neither side is good here, but one is competent yet vindictive (the elves) and the other is incompetent, belligerent and prone to almost sacrificing their own people for no gain (the Templars).

Like yeah, neither option will be good if you had to choose, but I am fairly heavily swaying towards one of them right now and I don't see it changing anytime soon, even with the elves having done fucked up shit.

You'd be surprised. Some around here say that the humans had it coming and that the elves are justified in what they do to defend themselves.

Templar leadership is pretty dumb ,absolutely. But then what does it say for the elves that their mortal enemy is so dumb

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

But she did moves to make up for this. She is in a route for correct her wrongs. That's not the case with Kaija.

The point of that conversation was if people would feel different if you met Kaija after she changed since she wants to with enough love points.

 

[Ciaran8023]

You'd be surprised. Some around here say that the humans had it coming and that the elves are justified in what they do to defend themselves.

Templar leadership is pretty dumb ,absolutely. But then what does it say for the elves that their mortal enemy is so dumb

Eh, violence is never justified, but if I recall correctly, the humans did poke the hornets nest first before the long-ass stalemate and then demons most likely poked the hornets nest again but made it out to be as if humans did it.. or atleast however is controlling the demons.

And they also go over that the reason why humans are their mortal enemies isn't due to intelligence, it's due to sheer numbers. Elves are outnumbered like 10 million to 1 or some shit. It's the reason why they stay hidden, and they know that the Templar's could potentially get a lot more members.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Eh, violence is never justified, but if I recall correctly, the humans did poke the hornets nest first before the long-ass stalemate and then demons most likely poked the hornets nest again but made it out to be as if humans did it.. or atleast however is controlling the demons.

And they also go over that the reason why humans are their mortal enemies isn't due to intelligence, it's due to sheer numbers. Elves are outnumbered like 10 million to 1 or some shit. It's the reason why they stay hidden, and they know that the Templar's could potentially get a lot more members.

You're right. I forgot. And yeah the whole elven population is like a few million at best.

 

[Knightcvel]

The problem with Kaija is that we have four routes in four relationships and she is a relationship from the start. So in three in four times we must have a good reason for dumping her. To be able to do all the routes, 75% of the time we have to put an end to the ongoing relationship with her. She needs to be a bitch so that we have a good reason, plotwise to start anew with another LI in a reasonable way and Ceolag did a good job in providing the players with such a reason. The only route we will be able to keep the relationship with her will only deliver 25% of the story and that's one thing the hard Kaija famdom won't take in account: they will only play a small amount of the game and eventually they will also have to dump her for further experiences.

 

[Ciaran8023]

You're right. I forgot. And yeah the whole elven population is like a few million at best.

No worries at all, I also had to wrack my brain a bit to remember specifics as it was a hot minute since the last time I played it.

I think the bottom line in regards to Templars or Elves is that, I'm having a hard time seeing a way for Templar's to redeem themselves with the current management and the individuals involved. They've just done a LOT of pretty bad shit fueled by their own incompetence, and the one competent individual we see thus far (Linnae) just get sabotaged to fuck by the rest of the council and have likely been battling them idealistically for a fairly lengthy time.

The Elves have their own issues but disregarding the Ice Queen, they seem like somewhat reasonable individuals once they deemed that they can trust the MC and they didn't seem to keen on potential genocidal war, atleast far less than some of the Templar's council.

The problem with Kaija is that we have four routes in four relationships and she is a relationship from the start. So in three in four times we must have a good reason for dumping her. To be able to do all the routes, 75% of the time we have to put an end to the ongoing relationship with her. She needs to be a bitch so that we have a good reason, plotwise to start anew with another LI in a reasonable way and Ceolag did a good job in providing the players with such a reason. The only route we will be able to keep the relationship with her will only deliver 25% of the story and that's one thing the hard Kaija famdom won't take in account: they will only play a small amount of the game and eventually they will also have to dump her for further experiences.

While you have a point, and I do think having a game start out with you being in a relationship is dumb, it doesn't feel like the dev intended for her to be as polarizing as she is to the playerbase.
What I do think happened is that he wanted to make her do something somewhat controversial and then goad the players into wanting to know more about why she did what she did.. only the issue is that he went WAY ham on her actions and I don't think he realized how universally disliked those actions would be.

Of course I could be wrong, but it would've made more sense logically if they kinetically broke up and then started interacting if that was his intention with the character.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

The problem with Kaija is that we have four routes in four relationships and she is a relationship from the start. So in three in four times we must have a good reason for dumping her. To be able to do all the routes, 75% of the time we have to put an end to the ongoing relationship with her. She needs to be a bitch so that we have a good reason, plotwise to start anew with another LI in a reasonable way and Ceolag did a good job in providing the players with such a reason. The only route we will be able to keep the relationship with her will only deliver 25% of the story and that's one thing the hard Kaija famdom won't take in account: they will only play a small amount of the game and eventually they will also have to dump her for further experiences.

Yeah I've always thought starting a game already in a relationship is a bad idea logistically and for numerous reasons. Unless it's kinetic or outright harem then who cares.

 

[Pixillin']

Yeah I've always thought starting a game already in a relationship is a bad idea logistically and for numerous reasons. Unless it's kinetic or outright harem then who cares.

Starting a game in a relationship can be great - especially for a story-focused game. Then you can go almost directly to lewd scenes without reverting to porn logic, and just focus on the story. Starting you off in a bad relationship is something different. For me there's no question of Kajia redeeming herself. I wasn't that into her from the beginning, and then there was the constantly being gone thing. When MC is offered a promotion at work and isn't sure whether to take it and then texts his girlfriend and gets no reply - I decided at that moment, in that playthrough (before the Templar stuff) that I needed to dump her if I got the chance so it's not like it was a good relationship from the beginning.

 

[Knightcvel]

While you have a point, and I do think having a game start out with you being in a relationship is dumb, it doesn't feel like the dev intended for her to be as polarizing as she is to the playerbase.
What I do think happened is that he wanted to make her do something somewhat controversial and then goad the players into wanting to know more about why she did what she did.. only the issue is that he went WAY ham on her actions and I don't think he realized how universally disliked those actions would be.

Of course I could be wrong, but it would've made more sense logically if they kinetically broke up and then started interacting if that was his intention with the character.

I think the developer wanted to give us a reason for a new start with another LI after leaving a bad relationship, so that he provides us with three very rich and satisfying alternatives. He left open the possibility of keeping the original relationship as a bonus, but never intended that would be a canon option, in some sorts. Most of the people would have enough reasons to pursue another life elsewhere after having their world views totally changed after a sudden revelation. Most of the plots I see elswhere are like that.

 

[Ciaran8023]

I think the developer wanted to give us a reason for a new start with another LI after leaving a bad relationship, so that he provides us with four very rich and satisfying alternatives. He left open the possibility of keeping the original relationship as a bonus, but never intended that would be a canon option, in some sorts. Most of the people would have enough reasons to pursue another life elsewhere after having their world views totally changed after a sudden revelation. Most of the plots I see elswhere are like that.

Sure, I don't disagree about that, the main reason why I think that it wasn't the original intention is purely because there is a choice there.
If the intention was to have them break up, doing so kinetically and then later giving MC the choice after having her start out in the same 'position' as the other LI's would've been more logical if that was the case. And by position I mean that they'll all start out somewhat from scratch, since you'd have to build an entirely new relationship with Kaiju.

Of course, I don't have any evidence of anything, just a gut feeling from how everything was written.

Starting a game in a relationship can be great - especially for a story-focused game. Then you can go almost directly to lewd scenes without reverting to porn logic, and just focus on the story. Starting you off in a bad relationship is something different. For me there's no question of Kajia redeeming herself. I wasn't that into her from the beginning, and then there was the constantly being gone thing. When MC is offered a promotion at work and isn't sure whether to take it and then texts his girlfriend and gets no reply - I decided at that moment, in that playthrough (before the Templar stuff) that I needed to dump her if I got the chance so it's not like it was a good relationship from the beginning.

That's about where I also got pretty pissed off with her, more than I already was atleast. I mean shit, it never really felt like she was a girlfriend to begin with, the entire first part of the game I kept thinking "why is the vibe so fucking weird with that chick".
I don't think she had any interest in being a girlfriend to begin with, and as you said, I also don't believe that she was a bodyguard either.
Shit just reeks and I guess we'll have to wait and find out.

 

[xapican]

View attachment 4782550

Yeah sorry I thought you speak German, you know what forget it acept my apologies, and it is best I bail out of this thread.
Have fun yer all and enjoy your game !

 

[ename144]

But see I don't even believe that she was supposed to be a bodyguard. There have been too many lies and she did to bad a job of being a bodyguard. I'm just assuming that she, and MC's parents are still lying about everything.

We won't know for sure until we can get more information, but I doubt Kaija was lying about being assigned as a bodyguard. If that were the case, she wouldn't need to be ordered TO save the MC in Chapter 1 the low Love point paths (and ONLY on the low Love point paths).

To me it's pretty clear the conflicting orders were ultimately a writing gaffe. Ceolag wanted to justify our feelings about Kaija, so she treats the MC as an assignment if you're cool on her, but defies orders to protect him if you favor her. It works in that context, but winds up clashing with other parts of the larger story in a way he probably didn't anticipate. YMMV.

I just want to chime in; having someone with good judgement and alright leadership is far better than mediocre judgement and good leadership.
You can teach someone to be an alright leader, you cannot teach someone to have good judgement if it's something they're poor at to begin with.

Eh, in my experience neither is easy to teach, though people can improve over time. But delegation is a thing, and it's much more likely for a strong leader to rely on the advice of trusted subordinates than it is for an enlightened paper-pusher to ride herd on a bunch of hotheads.

Obviously neither scenario is all that great, though.

Wasn't it already pretty obvious that they've done some horrendous shit towards humans?
Neither side is good here, but one is competent yet vindictive (the elves) and the other is incompetent, belligerent and prone to almost sacrificing their own people for no gain (the Templars).

This I agree with.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Yeah sorry I thought you speak German, you know what forget it acept my apologies, and it is best I bail out of this thread.
Have fun yer all and enjoy your game !

Well sad to see you go. See you somewhere else.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Eh, in my experience neither is easy to teach, though people can improve over time. But delegation is a thing, and it's much more likely for a strong leader to rely on the advice of trusted subordinates than it is for an enlightened paper-pusher to ride herd on a bunch of hotheads.

Obviously neither scenario is all that great, though.

Neither is easy to teach but judgement is far harder as it relies more on your natural instincts and deduction abilities.
And of course, it is more likely because the 'strong leader' is more likely to push themselves into a position where they have control over other people rather than the one with the actual skills to anticipate shit and deduce the best course of action, but it doesn't mean that it's the optimal way to do things.
How many times throughout mankind have we seen people in position of leadership that decides to complete ignore their MUCH more intelligent advisors and do dumb shit? Quite a lot, mainly because if you lack judgement as a leader, you can't even tell that what you're doing is a dumb idea.

This is the basis of my argument as to why someone with a natural sense of judgement is better to have in that position to begin with, given that you can always fake confidence but you can't fake intelligence.