I won't argue with that though I don't share your sentiment. The Mage route has been interesting for sure, though, as is the Mercenary route with Kate, imho, and I assume the Princess routes are also cool.
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Phew, sorry this took way too long to make. Continuing my re-review of the game, here is my attempt and a critical analysis of the mage route, focusing on the earlier parts of the story before the Bagrad section. This discussion of the overall story will discuss the elements of the Mage Route that sets it apart from other routes, guided by the discussion of the route execution of the story's general virtues when compared to the other branches.
To summarize, I consider those virtues to be:
1. An evocative and immersive writing that grounds us in the interesting characters, setting, and narrative.
2. Compelling characters, with interactions that allow the characters to build on each other, the setting, and ground the narrative while moving it forward.
3. Choices that allow for possibilities to affect and engage with the characters, setting, and narrative in interesting ways.
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Man, I am not proud with how long writing this took for me. I planned on posting this before the dev posted a new update but I got writer's block and took more than a month to finish this partly because of real life and partly because I felt like I needed to expand my knowledge on writing to make this review. I learned a lot about writing and I am definitely more sympathetic to writers now after this experience. Writer's block fucking suuucks lol. I've rewrote this 7th times so sorry if it feels incoherent in some way and if it doesn't communicate very well.
A lot of things had to be cut down for the sake of making the text of this review coherent, but if you think that its too long or incoherent you can read the articles below this instead, they helped me write this review and they are probably more coherent than the things I'm writing.
Hope you'll look forward to my honest thoughts on the Warrior Route next time. Hopefully it doesnt take too long for me to write them lol.
Btw love the Princess route update. It's amazing!
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Great review and you put in words what I struggle with after seeing the current end of the mage route. I was kinda...put off? I feel as if the game did not give enough information and just overall substance to me, the player, to make such a call at that point. I literally went by what I thought would be best for preserving the relationships and safety of Samayra, but I do not feel at all as if there's any way to trust either Raz or Xan, and I must say my initial enjoyment of Xanthippe turned into severe dislike for him as well as the mage route in general, cause it just feels as if it does not belong to the same game. Few choices to make so far, most of them have to be made blind, the "other side" of the situation (Razaphel) seems kinda 'locked' behind getting intimate with him which is not in the cards for me and even not doing that it felt as if the game just assumed I went for that path when dealing with the situation after Bagrad.
The writing is still good, it was an interesting story, and the blossoming relationship between Sarah & Samayra was one highlight of the game. But, just from a readers perspective, I do have no idea where things would go from where the route ends when Sarah refuses to let Xan control her existence.
I can only express my sincerest respect for how well you explain that the mystery doesn't serve any purpose, and keeping those things from Sarah (which ultimately lead to a situation where I saw no other choice than to go against Xan, despite the outcome of that being way more extreme than what I felt would have been a natural conclusion there and me not being overly happy with how that ended) also made no real sense, if anything it artificially created a major (and deadly) problem that was kinda unwarranted.
I also am not a fan of the 180 Xan's character and depiction does, almost as if the first half of the current mage route was written at one point, and then, with quite some time passing in between, came the 2nd half (Bagrad & everything afterwards) which was written in a completely different mindset and attitude.
This critique is, mostly, critique on a high level, though, as you say the game overall is very, very good so far.
Edit: weird sentences, foreign language, tough language. :'D
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Ah thank you so much for the response. I am glad that my writing resonated with you. I am happy that we see eye to eye and you've articulated points that I thought of as well. I actually have another text that I'm making that discusses the underutilization of magic as a story element in the mage route and how its development could facilitate interesting story developments and branching paths, but that would not be done until some time. It's also a bit fanfic-y so I'm rather embarrassed to post it since I dont want to come across as telling the writer how to write their story, but if anyone is interested I guess I could finish and post it here sometime in the future
I would be, I can't speak for the writer if TSSR but, as just a fellow writer (not game dev & I won't claim to be accomplished by anything other than close friends not running away screaming whenever I wanna show them some new story) I would say that your approach is actually one that is easy to work with as far as feedback goes. Like, as you say, it just resonates with e.g. my mindset.
In case the author of TSSR feels like this sort of feedback does not fit too well in this thread I personally would say it might be warranted to open a new thread for that where people can either specifically discuss TSSR in a less streamlined way or, depending on how you feel about things, maybe choice based RPGs/VNs similar to TSSR in general.
It would be great if Princess Sarah (MC) became queen (and to have her coronation)!
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The reason I like the Mage route a lot is because of said early mystery, Sarah basically:
Burnt every connection after Kate's betrayal, she is now truly alone in the world, and here comes a Mage telling her that there are other things in the world that she would have never expected, and she's thrown into the thick of it. Her experiences before this mold her in some way, having suffered the brunt of betrayal and loss, so when she gains the power of magic, we have a jaded Sarah with basically the capabilities of a nuke, and then Samayra (if you accept her) comes, as a new ray of light and hope for her, only to be told that she isn't really free anymore, and having to rebel once again (or not).
Some great stuff
As much as I disagree, I do think that also is a valid point of view.
The level of in-depth analysis and feedback is always appreciated. I carefully read through all of it, and it's given me a lot to consider.
As always, some of it I agree with, others I think might shift into a different focus as I develop the narratives going forward.
I think there is more for me to say here, but I feel that I need to let it sit and think on it for a while to really do your comment justice. Just wanted to let you know that it's appreciated.
I have no issue with any of this. Just the idea that there are people engaging with the game to such a degree is more than I could have hoped for when I first started writing it.
Thank you for your feedback as well. I do my best to read every post that comes through here, especially those that clearly show people engaging with the story.
I welcome anyone's posts, so always feel like you should feel free to post your mind on any particular section of the game/new updates.
Like I've said before, I have plotted out my major storylines, so I'm not afraid that those will be subject to too many changes, but I've definitely reached different insights on certain particular side-branches and characters, based off feedback that I received from readers/players.
Thank you for your response. This is a really interesting point. It really inspired me to think about the use of trauma in TSSR. Here are my thoughts!
I do agree that trauma defines Sarah in interesting ways in every route, but it's not the trauma on its own that makes her interesting, its how those traumatic events shape the story through Sarah's change and reactions to said trauma.
In the Princess route Sarah's trauma over her father's loss can inspire her to be proactive and fill the role of a co-leader to support her brother and lead her kingdom. Here she can either use this experience to mature, heal, and grow stronger, not let her trauma define her, to continue to support her brother. She can also choose to not be strong and loyal, be a bit broken down by the pressure, and take the first option of escape from her circumstances that she can find by running away with Kate. In the Princess route, trauma inspires Sarah to change and develop and lets us the player make interesting choices that affect the narrative in interesting ways.
In the Mage Route Sarah's trauma over being assaulted and seeing the ruin of her kingdom first hand is what motivates her to strive for power and be a strong mage to overcome a sense of powerlessness, it characterizes Sarah very well through her actions and it gives direction to the story.
In the Mage Route, Sarah's trauma over Kate's betrayal is potentially interesting element of her character, but it's never put explicitly in the story and isn't relevant or even mentioned until Sarah's confrontation with her in Bagrad. Yet even if this is put in the story to develop Sarah as something that motivates/defines her distrust towards others and what causes her to avoid emotional connection with Xan and Raz, I don't think it would have made an interesting story on its own, because it's how Sarah deals with her trauma and the choices we make because of it which what makes it interesting. I think a trauma that creates and justifies inaction from Sarah and creates a lack of character interactions, which creates and justifies a lack of meaningful character choices for the player to make in the story, is not interesting. If it is something that is put in the story it needs to be something that Sarah can overcome so she can develop and grow, be proactive, and practice the virtues that makes her an interesting protagonist instead of letting it just create and justify a railroaded story.
Thanks again for the reply btw, I love that I can have a discussion about this game and its writing
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Like I said a few posts before, I think that showing what happens in the different routes, you can potentially see the what ifs, and with that:
I think that Kate's betrayal is enhanced, because if not for her, you could be in the Princess route, saving your kingdom and your brother, but instead, the
I think that's why encountering Kate again in Bagrad is so potent, because its the final confrontation of your past, the final bridge to burn (hehehehehe), and why Samayrah is so effective to me as a waifu because she represents this new path for Sarah to maybe be happy again.
Ah, so you too are a man of culture as well. I too have subscribed to the fuck Kate (hatefully) and fuck Samayra (lovingly) path, in my case I subscribed to the this ideology after the last warrior route update and I do think that the branching paths adds so much to the story as a whole.
Too be fair though I do think that if the story was written differently Kate would have been salvageable and even compelling as a character. I think the writing that doesn't do her justice is the core of the problem, not because she's inherently uninteresting, as I don't think a character that can inspire strong emotions in an audience is a bad one. I plan on discussing her character thoroughly in my review of the Warrior route in the future, so please look forward to it!
I must admit I like Kate most of the Loveinterests I've seen so far, Samayra doesn't get enough screentime yet for me to consider her, though I will say she is most likely the better person on an objective level (from what we've seen so far) and I think the way she makes it into the mage route is really great. But since I didn't enjoy the mage route that much after the first half it's really a bit hard to say how much of my opinion of Samayra vs. Kate is influenced by the fact that I like 1 route far more than the other.Ah, so you too are a man of culture as well. I too have subscribed to the fuck Kate (hatefully) and fuck Samayra (lovingly) path, in my case I subscribed to the this ideology after the last warrior route update and I do think that the branching paths adds so much to the story as a whole.
Too be fair though I do think that if the story was written differently Kate would have been salvageable and even compelling as a character. I think the writing that doesn't do her justice is the core of the problem, not because she's inherently uninteresting, as I don't think a character that can inspire strong emotions in an audience is a bad one. I plan on discussing her character thoroughly in my review of the Warrior route in the future, so please look forward to it!
I try not to be overly judgemental, and I have my own fair share of experiences with her problems & people like her and it takes a lot for me to reach the point where I would condemn someone or feel as if they are utterly lost.
Can't really say if there's something off with the depiction but I think Kate suffers from the way the whole intro is written, it's all a bit too fast, too few interaction/choices and there's a lack of input in regards to past relationships Sarah had with people, especially Kate. We're told a few things but they don't show in the actual events happening. On top of that I'm not a fan of putting the blame on Kate when Sarah makes the decision to follow her, that's still her (or, well, the player's) choice and Kate can't be held responsible for that.
The whole "let's run away together" in my opinion only makes sense if Kate is genuine (albeit an idiot), or if there is some big conspiracy in the background that we are not told about, but in that case it seems very, very unlikely that someone would let a drunkard like her (who seems to be more or less completely controlled by her addiction) take care of something as important as making Sarah run away from her kingdom.
Also, but that's just a first impression, from what I've seen in the princess route I do think that Kate was to a degree doing her a favor by helping her escape. Actually it's pretty likely that staying will be pretty bad for the princess. It's one thing to know, as a player, how things could have gone with Sarah being present, but I can't apply that "4th Wall" knowledge to my judgement of Kate's actions from an in-game perspective.
Additionally, so far, Kate has been pretty affectionate and caring towards Sarah (haven't finished the Warrior stuff though) aside from just being a pretty irresponsible person.
These are some realy good points, we're actually on the same mind about a lot of things actually. I actually really like how complicated, messy, and broken Kate's and Sarah's situation and relationship is. I love how Kate addiction leads her to betraying Sarah and Sarah's own foolishness is what caused this whole mess. I think if this part of their relationship is built upon more it could be a really compelling story.
My problem with Kate is not a fault of her own as a character but how I think the writing kind of wastes her potential and compromises her. Here is my thoughts on what I think makes her portrayal really unappealing to some people:
1. Forced Intimacy
In the Princess route, Kate is really fun to engage with because we can always say no to her. Every encounter with her in that route is consensual in this way. However in the Warrior route before Bagrad, every choice to engage with her, from hearing out her backstory and letting her train is forced to lead to intimacy regardless of out feelings on the matter. This just breaks my engagement because I never intended for Sarah to feel for her and engage with her that way with my previous decisions. This is a glaring issue because the previous encounters with Kate in the Princess route as well as Caleb and Ephraim in the Warrior route do not have this problem of not being able to say no. This creates a huge problem.
2. The consequences of a lack of redemption
I think one of the biggest missed opportunities with the Warrior route is that the story does not grapple with Kate and Sarah's mistakes, currently the story just sweeps these problems under the rug and this makes their relationship very unappealing for me. This is especially detrimental to Kate since her path is very messy.
The forced intimacy and forgiveness after making the choice to hear her out just feels gross to me, not just because I can't consent to that, but because I feel like when taking this choice and giving her a chance, the story communicates that Kate is owed forgiveness and a kiss after what she's done, that she doesn't have to atone, and just needs to make excuses for herself. This also detrimental to Sarah character, making her into this bleeding hearted moron with no dignity to begrudge people for their mistakes with no spine or brain to hold them accountable.
Her other interaction in the Warrior route feel like it perpetuates this idea. Choosing her as a trainer, even when you make the choice to not listen to her excuses and forgiving her, leads to a sex scene that we cant say no to that leads to a romantic relationship. This combined with the context of her betrayal and exploitation of Sarah trust and naivety just makes her feel so coercive and rapey and gross, this path makes Kate into this unrepentant disgusting exploitative person that takes an mile from an inch at any given opportunity and the Sarah that allows this the most idiotic sucker in the world with no dignity and self respect.
I think this is a major reason why people hate Kate, not because of her mistake or because she's an addict, I think the core issue is that she's not developed enough in spite of these things and were not given the choice to hold her accountable for her actions, so engaging with her is detrimental to Sarah's portrayal too. A lack of development makes her defined by her bad deed and vices. She never written to make any attempt to redeem herself and make things right with Sarah of her own initiative regardless of whether Sarah forgives her or not, despite her being written to betray and exploit Sarah's naivety out of her own initiative. Despite her being established with huge yet fixable flaws, the story doesn't write her trying to be better and work to grow and fight against her demons that made her sabotage her relationship with Sarah, so for all we know she never changed and remains an unrepentant addict.
I feel that this lack of redemption makes each interaction that Sarah makes to engage with Kate detrimental since it make both of them worse characters. I wanted Sarah to understand Kate, empathize with her, and support her redemption because I feel that kind of story would have been really cool story, but I don't want Sarah to be forced to forgive her when Kate is never written to redeem herself and never go out of her way to overcome her vices and make things right, Kate's not owed forgiveness, no one does. Choosing any choice that makes us engage with her feels like rewarding her for doing less than the bare minimum and makes Sarah an idiot with no self-respect. A redemption arc would not only make Kate palatable and interesting it would also makes her path actually good for Sarah character, as that kind of path would characterize Sarah positively unlike the Kate's current path.
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Reading through your explanation I can only say that I actually agree. It literally didn't occur to me at that point, because I obviously wanted to go for a relationship with Kate & my only concern was and is if things go well with Sarah & Kate there. But you are absolutely correct that the unhappiness about the lack of choice in regards to getting intimate with her going that path is completely warranted & I back that it leads to the problem you describe, despite me personally not having a problem with it since it's what I hoped for.
Actually that is the same problem I have with Razaphel, despite not disliking him otherwise, but the lack of a choice in regards to intimacy with him if I wish to hear his side of the story made me not go with that. That's part of what led to my dilemma and relative dislike for the mage route (which just means I liked it the least of what I saw so far, but still enjoyed it, just for the record). Generally I would have a major problem with the exact same things you point out if I happened to dislike a character too much to go after them intimately/romantically and would be either forced to sit through it or ignore the complete route.
I admittedly will have to think about what you write about the exact consequences for Kate's and Sarah's characters due to the way the whole thing is handled. I don't disagree, but I have to really point out that I was relieved by the lack of angst and further drama after choosing to forgive her, so I can't really say I would want for that to be changed. I do think, however, that it would most likely really add to the whole thing if the player had control over how things are handled by Sarah there, as you suggested beforehand. Since the story isn't finished yet I feel like I shouldn't rule out the possibility of Kate getting a big redemption moment later down the line, which would be really cool (as long as it doesn't kill her without any chance for the player to prevent that). Personally I would really welcome though if (in case the Dev feels like changing some stuff) the option to treat Kate the way Sarah does do now still remains for those who prefer that. 100% support from me though in regards to Sarah trying to really understand Kate & try and support her in overcoming her problems. That would be really great.
I gonna have to finish the route to the current point though I think before I can really discuss the details you brought up properly though, I'm sorry. x.x
Thank you so much for your response!
First of I am relieved and ever grateful that I managed to communicate my point in a way that can be understood and empathized with. Hopefully my past response was enlightening to you like yours was to me and this one also.
Secondly, on the topic of Razaphel I also agree 100%, were actually kind of opposites yet similar funnily enough. For me picking to have sex with Raz was the obvious optimal choice since I thought at the time even if it was transactional, it was sex with a non-female being that you can opt out of, that leads to interesting revelations and character interactions and as such more content. I thought, "Why on earth would I or anyone would refuse this?" I never considered that the transactional part of the exchange is coercive and a turn off for other people. I didn't think it was a problem because you can opt out of it. I guess that goes to show that personal preference makes you biased lol. Thank you for giving me this perspective.
Thirdly, I'm glad that we came to a mutual understanding about Sarah and Kate's relationship despite our disagreements, you brought up a lot of interesting points that I didn't think about, thanks!
I do think that for Kate's redemption to work it needs to be something that is universally canon to the Warrior path regardless of the path you choose and something that she commits to regardless of our decisions for it to be meaningful, as counter intuitive as that sounds. Her actions are so narrative defining after all, her redemption needs to be that way too, a defining and unavoidable key part of the plot and her character. Her redemption arc being an addition will add a lot to the narrative I feel. This would especially enhance her own path and make it palatable.
(Besides, with the way Kate is written she already has the spotlight anyway, for me she comes across as an author's pet, which is not a bad thing on its own, but it does mean that she has immense pressure on her to be palatable to the audience due to said spotlight and needs to work well with the other characters more than anyone in the story).
Imagine after Sarah wins her mercenary test, regardless of the training path chosen, Kate comes to Sarah with some of the jewels that she traded away and managed to regain, this token of good faith automatically leads Sarah to be open to listen to her. Kate then explains why she did the things she did and she explains how nothing about her experience can justify her betrayal of Sarah's trust, she then vows to the gods to conquer her addiction, make things right for Sarah, and become her sword and shield. Promising to return every single thing that she took from Sarah and more, not just her jewels which she intends to return to her or failing that pay her back a thousand fold, but also her kingdom and her people. And she does this without any expectation of forgiveness from Sarah, desiring instead only for Sarah to forgive herself for taking her hand and believing her lies, taking full accountability for her betrayal and giving Sarah some measure of peace. And on top of it all, regardless of Sarah's and our choices to respond, regardless of whether we choose to forgive her or not, she commits to this path that she willingly chose for herself of her own volition and she actually follows through with her words. Conquering her addiction, becoming Sarah's true supporter, the friend she was always meant to be. What do you think? Is this good enough?
I feel like doing it this way is the optimal way, since this a story about survival having an ally is invaluable and it would give the audience a pragmatic reason to care about Kate regardless of our feelings towards her. This would also justify her author pet-like spotlight in the story by making her palatable to the audience. Doing it within the time frame of the first part of the Warrior route would be the most ideal I think, any later and it ruins the goodwill of the audience towards her and festers resentment towards her, which is not the kind of thing you want when you want to make a character central to a story.
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My problem with Kate is not that she's a drunkard/addict, but rather:Ah, so you too are a man of culture as well. I too have subscribed to the fuck Kate (hatefully) and fuck Samayra (lovingly) path, in my case I subscribed to the this ideology after the last warrior route update and I do think that the branching paths adds so much to the story as a whole.
Too be fair though I do think that if the story was written differently Kate would have been salvageable and even compelling as a character. I think the writing that doesn't do her justice is the core of the problem, not because she's inherently uninteresting, as I don't think a character that can inspire strong emotions in an audience is a bad one. I plan on discussing her character thoroughly in my review of the Warrior route in the future, so please look forward to it!
She, under threat of a conspiracy towards Sarah (which given how the King died might be well founded for Sarah to consider), managed to separate her from her family (dependent on player choice but still), that was already weakened because of the king's death, only to then, steal from her, and abandon her in a foreign country to leave her to fend for herself. This is a humongous betrayal of trust, and (for me) there is no redeeming possible, I would never, ever, trust a person like this ever again.
That bitch.
The way I perceive her motivations there is that she got the idea to run away with Sarah, either because she wasn't sober at that time or because she really wished to get her away from a potential conspiracy. When Sarah gives her the gems she couldn't resist spending it and then got wasted, not thinking about Sarah during that and/or knowing deep down that she majorly fucked up she didn't go back to her when she certainly should have.
After confronting her but deciding to let it go she does take care of Sarah again & helps her becoming a warrior, if one decides to train under her.
I'm not convinced that Kate acted out of malice & given how she does drugs & drinks it doesn't seem too likely she had some malicious plan, instead what she does seems pretty much the opposite of something well planned. It's stupid and makes little sense, it does a great deal of harm to Sarah's family & doesn't do herself much of a favor. In fact Sarah forgiving her & becoming her lover is about the most unlikely outcome.
So I got your ideas some thought, but before I get to them I wanna say I do agree it is kinda funny how we have similar complains/dislikes but it's just for completely different characters. (The situations we seem to be put off by are very alike indeed). I maybe should add, just so that there is no confusion, that part of my problem with Raz is also the fact that I have no interest in male characters romantically or sexually (or as protagonists, just for the record), so it's a "nono" for me to begin with, and then on top of that comes the fact it is also coercion and I feel uncomfortable with that in such a story heavy game (that also seems to really care for the relationships crafted) when there is no option to not go along with it.
Obviously it has to be said that there are options around it, so it's not something I would critique the Dev for (in the sense of stating that, personally, I think one shouldn't do that as long as the game supposedly is about player decisions). It is, however, something that locks people out of certain routes to begin with, and that's just a bit sad. Not a massive let down, but just a tad bit disappointing when the writing is this good.
Now let me get to your thoughts on a possible redemption arc for Kate:
What you suggest seems plausible to me & I would not at all be disappointed by such a turn of events. I do think you got a point that it would add a lot of weight if she'd do that on any variation of the warrior route. Honestly I'd also still think it could add to the mage route as well if there was a point to at least reconcile, after sparing her, though ofc not right there and then but during some part of the game.
I would say, though, that what you suggest would need to be altered quite a bit depending on what she and Sarah have with each other. Let's say the status quo is what I prefer and Sarah explicitly decided against holding her grave mistake against Kate and also doesn't bring that whole thing up again. She has lost a lot, but also came to the realization that not only is Kate the only thing from her old life she has left, but also that she maybe always was the most important part & that one of the reasons why she got along with the insanity of running away together was the fact that she just couldn't bear the thought of loosing Kate again. In that case I think it would be a bit odd if Kate brings up her failure in a way were she asks for forgiveness again, cause actually ideally Sarah managed to show her how important she is to her and that she truly forgave her when she said it.
That (your variation) would, in my opinion, be immersion breaking in it's own right in a setting roughly around those lines & also a kinda like drama just for the sake of it.
However, in all other situations, especially with Kate and Sarah neither being trainer/pupil or especially lovers it would fit very well & make perfect sense.
I really do like the idea of her pledge, and that 1 could easily be subtly varied to accord to the specific details of the route the player is walking, like (in case Sarah made it easy for her to find forgiveness) her just saying she decided to fully commit to Sarah & will support her in whatever she attempts to do with the new life, be it reconquering her lost home, becoming a famous mercenary, some sort of military commander or just a couple that tries to earn enough to settle down at some place where they can find peace and recluse.
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