VN Ren'Py ToxiCity [v0.11.0] [ILSProductions]

[danb35]

I'm not entirely certain if this mimicry is actual intelligence. Burned Ones seem male-coded to me, and Witches as female-coded. The Burned Ones use physical prowess, while the Witches use manipulation. I don't think it's actual intelligence, because there doesn't seem to be intent behind their behavior.

I think you're contradicting yourself here. If the witches' behavior is mimicry and manipulation, then it must by definition be by intent. And they're not just randomly saying these things.

As to "coding," the simplest explanation is that the BOs are males who have turned, and the witches females. Why the differing reactions? Well, men and women are different, so reacting similarly-but-differently to whatever the fog is seems pretty plausible.

And even their shape seems to be designed to appeal to male/human instinct.

I mean, they're female.

But that raises the question of their motivations--what do they get out of attacking and turning people? These aren't NotLD-style zombies, out to eat our brains.

This also makes every woman we'll meet a potential danger.

Really, every person we meet is a potential danger. Even if not out of concern for being a BO/witch in disguise, garage lady threatened to kill our cast, and the guy back at the school tried. And others we meet (e.g., Shelley and garage lady) see it the same way, though garage lady was better prepared for this than was Shelley.

 

[Bingoogus]

Whelp, hit the content wall, definitely infested in this, enjoying it almost as much as Now and Then, though this one is more constant in it's anxiety... some pretty moronic choices but none of these characters are trained or skilled in survival so it's to be expected... i like it. Next update when?

 

[Quetzzz]

I think you're contradicting yourself here. If the witches' behavior is mimicry and manipulation, then it must by definition be by intent. And they're not just randomly saying these things.

Not really. Parrots use mimicry but have no understanding of what the sound means. They only know that a certain combination of sounds gets them a cracker.
It's possible that when a woman turns into a witch, their last moment of despair determines their behavior. One could have been clawing at a door before she died, and another could've cried for help. The witch could have no knowledge about the meaning of the sounds they're making; it could all be instinctual.

As to "coding," the simplest explanation is that the BOs are males who have turned, and the witches females. Why the differing reactions? Well, men and women are different, so reacting similarly-but-differently to whatever the fog is seems pretty plausible.

I agree. Though, it'd be interesting to see if the personality of a person has any influence, or if it's purely genetic. Maybe the fight-or-flight response has an influence as well.

But that raises the question of their motivations--what do they get out of attacking and turning people? These aren't NotLD-style zombies, out to eat our brains.

My guess is that it's purely instinctual. In a way they are reproducing by attacking and turning people.

Really, every person we meet is a potential danger. Even if not out of concern for being a BO/witch in disguise, garage lady threatened to kill our cast, and the guy back at the school tried. And others we meet (e.g., Shelley and garage lady) see it the same way, though garage lady was better prepared for this than was Shelley.

You're right, everyone is a potential danger... But if witches can look like healthy women, then lone women will be treated with even more mistrust. Even more when they start knocking on doors. If we see a woman who looks afraid and is running toward us and away from a danger, then we're usually sympathetic. Regardless of everyone being a potential danger, we'd be more concerned if we saw a man running toward us in the same context. We would be more likely to see this as hostile. The witches turn this on its head, and it would be very tempting to shoot the woman first and ask questions later.

 

[Anteron]

As to "coding," the simplest explanation is that the BOs are males who have turned, and the witches females. Why the differing reactions? Well, men and women are different, so reacting similarly-but-differently to whatever the fog is seems pretty plausible.

You'd think then they'd have encountered more witches by then. There's be about the same number of men and women around. In fact, women outnumber men most developed places.

 

[Quetzzz]

You'd think then they'd have encountered more witches by then. There's be about the same number of men and women around. In fact, women outnumber men most developed places.

Not necessarily, since it's men, in general, who display more risk-taking behavior.

 

[Anteron]

Not necessarily, since it's men, in general, who display more risk-taking behavior.

True, but those who were outside when it hit or went out not knowing...

 

[danb35]

Parrots use mimicry but have no understanding of what the sound means.

Sure, but you said mimicry and manipulation. I don't see how you can have those together without intent.

Moreover, we've had some kind of encounter with at least two, and maybe three, depending on whether the one at the student center was the same as the one at the gym. In all cases, she said "help me." I believe she scratched at the door at both of the school settings. We're seeing very similar, if not identical, behavior patterns across however many witches we've encountered so far. Granting that it's a small sample size, that still seems somewhat inconsistent with "they're reliving their dying/turning moments."

My guess is that it's purely instinctual.

But to what benefit? And how would those instincts have developed? As far as we know, this is a completely new life form; it hasn't developed instincts over generations of evolution. It certainly isn't a human instinct to attack other humans just for s&g.

Now, if we grant that the fog is supernatural (which I suspect it is, because no known (to me) natural substance behaves the way it does), then we can also entertain possibilities like mind control and such--they're behaving this way because some other entity is controlling them.

And maybe this should just be filed under "it's just a game, you should really just relax." There are monsters who are threats to our cast because the story needs that to be the case, and leave it there. But...

You'd think then they'd have encountered more witches by then.

You'd think. Maybe the women were (by and large) smarter and got out of Dodge? We had a few days' leadup to this before MC and Kallie got stuck in the office, after all--that could have been enough reason to send most of the women for the hills.

But I think it's the best hypothesis from the data we currently have. BOs look generally humanoid, with no distinctly female characteristics (i.e., no boobs). Witches look more clearly humanoid, with distinctly female characteristics. We've seen one male human turn, and he turned into a BO. We've seen what appears to be (and what MC believes to be) one female human turn, and that was into a witch. The simplest explanation that's consistent with these data points is that men turn into BOs, and women turn into witches.

 

[Quetzzz]

Sure, but you said mimicry and manipulation. I don't see how you can have those together without intent.

Sure, maybe manipulation wasn't the right word. It was more about the effect than the intent, but I believe I was clear about that.

Moreover, we've had some kind of encounter with at least two, and maybe three, depending on whether the one at the student center was the same as the one at the gym. In all cases, she said "help me." I believe she scratched at the door at both of the school settings. We're seeing very similar, if not identical, behavior patterns across however many witches we've encountered so far. Granting that it's a small sample size, that still seems somewhat inconsistent with "they're reliving their dying/turning moments."

Yeah, I have no horse in this race. If their behavior isn't programmed by their dying breath and is instead ingrained somehow, that's all good.
The question I'm trying to answer is where this behavior comes from, because I really do not see it as intelligence. The mist might even act as a neurotoxin that hijacks the ancient pathway that a lost infant would use to cry for its mother.

But to what benefit? And how would those instincts have developed? As far as we know, this is a completely new life form; it hasn't developed instincts over generations of evolution. It certainly isn't a human instinct to attack other humans just for s&g.

Now, if we grant that the fog is supernatural (which I suspect it is, because no known (to me) natural substance behaves the way it does), then we can also entertain possibilities like mind control and such--they're behaving this way because some other entity is controlling them.

And maybe this should just be filed under "it's just a game, you should really just relax." There are monsters who are threats to our cast because the story needs that to be the case, and leave it there. But...

I think these are valid questions. I'll be the last person who says, "It's only a game", because I think it's important for the dev to already have an answer to these questions. We're merely trying to decode it.

We know that

You must be registered to see the links

and entropy can have weird results. Maybe it's an accident in a lab, or you could be right and it's supernatural. Reasons for why I think you might be right are because of how quickly the young guy turned into a burned one and the weather reports at the beginning. There's also this weird stabilization the mist does. If the mist came from a natural gas pocket, and if the city was in a valley, then I'd expect the fog to get thicker over time. But I'm not even certain that the city is in a valley.
A hive mind or mind control is more far-fetched, I think. Nothing we've seen so far proves that there's any kind of intelligent behavior from the burned ones or witches.

 

[Anteron]

And remember so far there's only been (besides the MC) 1 male not turned (who was insane) - and one turned in front of him - plus so far 4 unturned women (the ones with MC and gas station one.) Not counting dead.

 

[danb35]

I really do not see it as intelligence.

We may just have to agree to disagree here, recognizing that we're both drawing what we believe to be the best conclusions we can from very limited data. I don't see the witches as mindless zombies. The BOs, yes, but not the witches. I'm not suggesting the witches are scheming masterminds, but they appear (to me) to have some capacity for rational thought and communication that the BOs lack. I expect we'll learn more as time passes.

As to the fog, here's what we've seen it do (or happen at the same time):

• Acute respiratory distress
  • Can be prevented, or at least minimized, by wearing a mask. We'll probably find that garage lady's gas mask/respirator is much more effective.
• Skin and eye irritation
  • Can be prevented, or at least minimized, by covering the skin with normal clothing.
  • Can be neutralized by washing with soap and water.
• With concentrated or prolonged exposure, turn a person into a Burned One
  • This one's still somewhat speculative--the only time we've seen this happen, a BO turned a person into another BO. We assume--I think rightly, but still assume--that enough exposure to the fog will do it even without a BO attacking.
  • I think it's also reasonable, though less certain, to speculate that it turns women into witches.
• Interfere with, though not completely prevent, electronic communication
  • Including landline communication--the Internet at the office wouldn't have been wireless, nor would the phones, and the TV would almost certainly have had cable.
• Disable vehicles
  • Exposure alone will do this, whether or not the engine is running.
• "Density" of the fog seems to correlate to difficulty moving about--when it's thicker, MC feels a physical barrier or impediment to movement.

The main classes of hazards are NBC - nuclear, biological, and chemical. Does any of those explain these effects?

• Nuclear
  • EMP would disable electronics. Obviously this degrades communication, but things like the cell phones, TVs, and computers would cease to function at all, and we know that didn't happen.
  • Nuclear radiation could easily cause skin burns, but they wouldn't be treated by washing with soap and water.
  • We don't have any evidence of its causing things like BOs and witches, but I'll grant this one because "nuclear mutation" is such a common sci-fi/horror trope.
  • EMP would disable modern vehicles (because they're dependent on electronics), but not older ones. But it wouldn't progressively disable the SUV while they're driving it.
• Biological
  • It isn't hard to imagine (particularly in a sci-fi/horror setting) a pathogen causing the turning (that's pretty much the Infected from N&T). Its doing it in a matter of minutes is a little harder to accept.
  • I think it's a bit of a stretch, but it could maybe cause the respiratory, skin, and eye sx with lesser exposure, and be washed off. Maybe.
  • But the fog? Communications? Vehicles? I don't think so.
• Chemical
  • I think this is the best fit, but still not a good one. Specifically, in the form of a corrosive mist.
  • Resp/skin/eye sx, check. Wash with water to neutralize, check. Ordinary mask/clothing acting to protect you from it, if imperfectly, check.
  • Disabling vehicles--it could corrode wires or connections, or internal engine components. Doubtful it'd be enough to do it in a matter of minutes, but plausible enough. But strong enough to do this, and not be immediately fatal on unprotected exposure, is a stretch.
  • Could affect antennae for various wireless communications.
    • Maybe we hand-wave the landline comms by saying there were still wireless links that were affected?
  • But the turning?
  • Why don't we see any exterior corrosion on buildings, vehicles, or anything else?
  • How does it act as a physical barrier?

So I really don't see a natural explanation that covers the effects we're seeing, which leaves something supernatural. Whether it's that ancient native burial ground that was teased way back at the beginning, aliens, or something else, I have no idea.

 

[Lynava]

but still assume--that enough exposure to the fog will do it even without a BO attacking.

Don't forget the guy in the office at the beginning of the game who turned in a room with an open window.

 

[e6mill]

the guy in the office at the beginning of the game who turned into a room

Every day on my way home from work I turn into a driveway...

 

[Quetzzz]

• Interfere with, though not completely prevent, electronic communication
  • Including landline communication--the Internet at the office wouldn't have been wireless, nor would the phones, and the TV would almost certainly have had cable.
• Disable vehicles
  • Exposure alone will do this, whether or not the engine is running.

I see these two as the same thing. Everything that's electrical and aboveground can be affected. If the fog corrodes or otherwise insulates conductors, it would explain this infrastructure failing, including cars. When the MC found the car in the underground garage, he noted that he was hopeful it would run because there was a light. The fog is acidic, so corrosion is a feasible explanation.
But, to poke a hole in my own theory... It's not clear why the radio couldn't get any signal. Certainly the AM band could've picked something up. One caveat here is that we don't know how the outside world is reacting and potentially quarantining the city. It also isn't clear if the MC even tried the AM band.

Why don't we see any exterior corrosion on buildings, vehicles, or anything else?

This is a good question, certainly for parts of buildings that are conductive. Unless an electrical charge worsens the effect of the mist on the material.

How does it act as a physical barrier?

I'm not certain it does, but I could've interpreted it differently. When the MC went out in the thick fog, I understood it as meaning that he felt as if he was hit by a wall of it, that none of his protection held up, and his visibility was zero. I didn't understand it to mean that he had to walk as if going against a strong wind or even a liquid.

I'm still leaning toward a neurotoxin or even the fog having several components to it. But a supernatural explanation is as feasible. It's a fantastical situation, so it can go either way. Maybe the supernatural explanation is the easiest, because it can explain everything.

 

[danb35]

Don't forget the guy in the office at the beginning of the game who turned in a room with an open window.

We assume that's what happened. And, again, a reasonable assumption, but we didn't see it happen. And while I think that's the most logical explanation for what we saw, it leaves at least one big question: why did he break out the window? Because the window was broken, not just open. If he wanted to leave the building, he could have just left--it's not like he was locked in there. And why did he take off his clothes?

The fog is acidic, so corrosion is a feasible explanation.

I think the fog being acidic is the possibility that explains the most of what we see. But for it to be strong enough to disable a vehicle in a matter of minutes, but not have killed Laura as she was coming to the office, doesn't seem to line up.

I don't think a neurotoxin explains any of what we're seeing, by itself. A mix of ingredients, maybe.

I'm certainly not married to the supernatural hypothesis, but I don't yet see a natural one that fits.

 

[Anteron]

We may just have to agree to disagree here, recognizing that we're both drawing what we believe to be the best conclusions we can from very limited data. I don't see the witches as mindless zombies. The BOs, yes, but not the witches. I'm not suggesting the witches are scheming masterminds, but they appear (to me) to have some capacity for rational thought and communication that the BOs lack. I expect we'll learn more as time passes.

As to the fog, here's what we've seen it do (or happen at the same time):

• Acute respiratory distress
  • Can be prevented, or at least minimized, by wearing a mask. We'll probably find that garage lady's gas mask/respirator is much more effective.
• Skin and eye irritation
  • Can be prevented, or at least minimized, by covering the skin with normal clothing.
  • Can be neutralized by washing with soap and water.
• With concentrated or prolonged exposure, turn a person into a Burned One
  • This one's still somewhat speculative--the only time we've seen this happen, a BO turned a person into another BO. We assume--I think rightly, but still assume--that enough exposure to the fog will do it even without a BO attacking.
  • I think it's also reasonable, though less certain, to speculate that it turns women into witches.
• Interfere with, though not completely prevent, electronic communication
  • Including landline communication--the Internet at the office wouldn't have been wireless, nor would the phones, and the TV would almost certainly have had cable.
• Disable vehicles
  • Exposure alone will do this, whether or not the engine is running.
• "Density" of the fog seems to correlate to difficulty moving about--when it's thicker, MC feels a physical barrier or impediment to movement.

The main classes of hazards are NBC - nuclear, biological, and chemical. Does any of those explain these effects?

• Nuclear
  • EMP would disable electronics. Obviously this degrades communication, but things like the cell phones, TVs, and computers would cease to function at all, and we know that didn't happen.
  • Nuclear radiation could easily cause skin burns, but they wouldn't be treated by washing with soap and water.
  • We don't have any evidence of its causing things like BOs and witches, but I'll grant this one because "nuclear mutation" is such a common sci-fi/horror trope.
  • EMP would disable modern vehicles (because they're dependent on electronics), but not older ones. But it wouldn't progressively disable the SUV while they're driving it.
• Biological
  • It isn't hard to imagine (particularly in a sci-fi/horror setting) a pathogen causing the turning (that's pretty much the Infected from N&T). Its doing it in a matter of minutes is a little harder to accept.
  • I think it's a bit of a stretch, but it could maybe cause the respiratory, skin, and eye sx with lesser exposure, and be washed off. Maybe.
  • But the fog? Communications? Vehicles? I don't think so.
• Chemical
  • I think this is the best fit, but still not a good one. Specifically, in the form of a corrosive mist.
  • Resp/skin/eye sx, check. Wash with water to neutralize, check. Ordinary mask/clothing acting to protect you from it, if imperfectly, check.
  • Disabling vehicles--it could corrode wires or connections, or internal engine components. Doubtful it'd be enough to do it in a matter of minutes, but plausible enough. But strong enough to do this, and not be immediately fatal on unprotected exposure, is a stretch.
  • Could affect antennae for various wireless communications.
    • Maybe we hand-wave the landline comms by saying there were still wireless links that were affected?
  • But the turning?
  • Why don't we see any exterior corrosion on buildings, vehicles, or anything else?
  • How does it act as a physical barrier?

So I really don't see a natural explanation that covers the effects we're seeing, which leaves something supernatural. Whether it's that ancient native burial ground that was teased way back at the beginning, aliens, or something else, I have no idea.

Nuclear and biological also wouldn't make the fog. But then that it gets between really bad and not so bad wouldn't happen unless more was being put out even with chemical.

 

[Walter Victor]

We know that the fog dissipates with rain. But didn't it tend to get thicker when a witch was present, or did I imagine that?

Good discussions, people. Lots of food for thought.

Anyway I'm going with the disturbed burial-ground theory as the cause of all this, which makes it primarily supernatural in nature. If it is supernatural, almost anything goes, unrestricted by natural, physical laws, restricted only by the developer's imagination.

 

[danb35]

We know that the fog dissipates with rain.

True, though apparently only temporarily.

 

[Quetzzz]

But didn't it tend to get thicker when a witch was present, or did I imagine that?

You're right, I noticed this as well. But it's also possible that witches are drawn to areas with thick fog after they've manifested.

Anyway I'm going with the disturbed burial-ground theory as the cause of all this, which makes it primarily supernatural in nature. If it is supernatural, almost anything goes, unrestricted by natural, physical laws, restricted only by the developer's imagination.

I have to be honest, I entirely missed that or immediately wrote it off as a reference. I should replay the first days again and pay more attention to the news & reports. Though, devil's advocate... The burial ground could be a red herring, and whatever happened opened a sinkhole with a pocket of the fog. But, in all seriousness, the more I think about it, the more the fog seems to play by rules that aren't natural.

 

[danb35]

There are definitely some cause/effect questions. Does the witch cause the fog to thicken, does the thicker fog attract the witch, or does something else cause both? And the same could go for many of the things we attribute to the fog.

 

[Siphon]

Man I'm catching up and I gotta ask if the people pointing out how dumb the witch scene was actually read it. Laura specifically mentioned the gait was entirely different and the MC said she looked different until he got too close. She wasn't an obvious witch at first, for all they knew she had a mental break like Laura.

I think the fog being acidic is the possibility that explains the most of what we see. But for it to be strong enough to disable a vehicle in a matter of minutes, but not have killed Laura as she was coming to the office, doesn't seem to line up.

I wanted to ask what was causing the cars to fail last update, because I can't think of a single component in a car that would be destroyed by corrosion without also destroying other things that are keeping the fog out. Like if metal or aluminum eroded then even closing the vents or turning off the AC wouldn't help because it'd eat through it. Rubber/polyester doesn't seem to dissolve outside of the super high concentrated bursts because they're still using face masks and gloves from the start.

If it's an acid, it's a very weird one.