Unity TwoSides Reboot [v0.036A Fix 1] [GreonoGames]

[naoligopraisso]

I think that the problem you are discussing regarding the points does not necessarily have to do with the dialogues, but rather with the concept behind them, of them having a masculine and feminine symbol.

When you choose the male options, they are in conditions where the protagonist is having an interaction with a woman.

When choosing female options, these are conditions where the protagonist interacts either with a man or with a trans/transvestite.

At first glance, it appears that the male options are more dominant and assholes, while the female options are more submissive.

However, I don't see it exactly that way, since there are cases (without giving too many spoilers) in which you choose the female option, but you are the dominant one in the situation, you who puts your partner against the wall, you who steals a kiss, you that harasses etc., I understand what they mean, but it's not particularly something that bothers me, especially when you consider that the game is still at the beginning of its development and that there are other attributes that will affect your interaction and future with the characters, such as love, friendship and lust.

 

[FatGiant]

I think that the problem you are discussing regarding the points does not necessarily have to do with the dialogues, but rather with the concept behind them, of them having a masculine and feminine symbol.

When you choose the male options, they are in conditions where the protagonist is having an interaction with a woman.

When choosing female options, these are conditions where the protagonist interacts either with a man or with a trans/transvestite.

At first glance, it appears that the male options are more dominant and assholes, while the female options are more submissive.

However, I don't see it exactly that way, since there are cases (without giving too many spoilers) in which you choose the female option, but you are the dominant one in the situation, you who puts your partner against the wall, you who steals a kiss, you that harasses etc., I understand what they mean, but it's not particularly something that bothers me, especially when you consider that the game is still at the beginning of its development and that there are other attributes that will affect your interaction and future with the characters, such as love, friendship and lust.

When you first meet Bret.

Tell me, do you see male options or a female option?

If you do see a female option, is that the VERY much male MC, instantly going gaga about Bret's junk? Is that a "female" option? No. Not any woman when faced with an aggressive male goes gaga about his junk. That, I am sorry, is a VERY submissive option, more on the realm of gay porn.

Choosing that is not Femininity, it is downright sissification. Those 2 things are NOT the same.

That's what I am talking about. It is not Male points and Female points. It's Dom and Sub. But the MC remains male.

Triggering the transformation using Sub points is completely stupid.

Also, there are MANY male options when dealing with males.

Peace

 

[naoligopraisso]

When you first meet Bret.

Tell me, do you see male options or a female option?

If you do see a female option, is that the VERY much male MC, instantly going gaga about Bret's junk? Is that a "female" option? No. Not any woman when faced with an aggressive male goes gaga about his junk. That, I am sorry, is a VERY submissive option, more on the realm of gay porn.

Choosing that is not Femininity, it is downright sissification. Those 2 things are NOT the same.

That's what I am talking about. It is not Male points and Female points. It's Dom and Sub. But the MC remains male.

Triggering the transformation using Sub points is completely stupid.

Also, there are MANY male options when dealing with males.

Peace

Peace dude

But man, that's my point, I'm not disagreeing that in the concept of man and woman, the options are not discrepant.

My point is that I don't think the problem is the options or the dialogues, but rather the concept of that being a male choice (with a male symbol) or a female choice (with a female symbol). These symbols are used in the game to illustrate when you are taking an action that has more of a Heterosexual or Homosexual tendency, and I think the confusion that led to this discussion is precisely that, not the dialogue or the options, but the symbols and how they are represented, for example:

At the beginning of the game, Lindsey passes through the train corridor, and then the protagonist has two options (ignore the option where he is caught looking as an option please) look at Lindsey's ass (And get a man point, which in this case would be represented as a heterosexual action) or not looking at Lindsey's ass.

Later in the story, when we get off the train and Bret appears, the protagonist has the option to look at him and focus on the dick (And gain a feminine point, in which case it would be represented as a homosexual action) or remain silent.

That's why I say, from my point of view, the problem is not the choices or dialogues that may be problematic for you, but rather the way they are represented in the game.

Maybe if the choices and symbols were represented this way, it would make more sense to you?

 

[FatGiant]

Peace dude

But man, that's my point, I'm not disagreeing that in the concept of man and woman, the options are not discrepant.

My point is that I don't think the problem is the options or the dialogues, but rather the concept of that being a male choice (with a male symbol) or a female choice (with a female symbol). These symbols are used in the game to illustrate when you are taking an action that has more of a Heterosexual or Homosexual tendency, and I think the confusion that led to this discussion is precisely that, not the dialogue or the options, but the symbols and how they are represented, for example:

At the beginning of the game, Lindsey passes through the train corridor, and then the protagonist has two options (ignore the option where he is caught looking as an option please) look at Lindsey's ass (And get a man point, which in this case would be represented as a heterosexual action) or not looking at Lindsey's ass.

Later in the story, when we get off the train and Bret appears, the protagonist has the option to look at him and focus on the dick (And gain a feminine point, in which case it would be represented as a homosexual action) or remain silent.

That's why I say, from my point of view, the problem is not the choices or dialogues that may be problematic for you, but rather the way they are represented in the game.

And THAT is completely NOT how Bisexuality works. Or even Hetero. Or even Homo.

This is making less sense the more you try to explain it.

To be clear, this is how a biased heterosexual male thinks Bisexuals and Homosexuals look at each other and at sex in general.
This is Porn Logic taken to a gamefying of sexuality. In a very simplistic and quite... how shall I put it... ignorant maybe?... way. And the Dev wants to trigger a Male to Female transformation based on Homosexuality points?

WHAT THE ABSOLUTE FUCK. Gay men are NOT women. Gay women are NOT men. Bi people are whatever gender.

I thought the Male/Female option was BAD, this is even worse. This is downright Homophobia.

Dev, spend sometime talking and reading about gender subjects and sexualities, before you attempt to make a game about something you CLEARLY don't understand.

Peace

 

[naoligopraisso]

And THAT is completely NOT how Bisexuality works. Or even Hetero. Or even Homo.

This is making less sense the more you try to explain it.

To be clear, this is how a biased heterosexual male thinks Bisexuals and Homosexuals look at each other and at sex in general.
This is Porn Logic taken to a gamefying of sexuality. In a very simplistic and quite... how shall I put it... ignorant maybe?... way. And the Dev wants to trigger a Male to Female transformation based on Homosexuality points?

WHAT THE ABSOLUTE FUCK. Gay men are NOT women. Gay women are NOT men. Bi people are whatever gender.

I thought the Male/Female option was BAD, this is even worse. This is downright Homophobia.

Dev, spend sometime talking and reading about gender subjects and sexualities, before you attempt to make a game about something you CLEARLY don't understand.

Peace

Dude, it's obvious that this game follows the logic of a porn, it's a hentai game, what did you expect?

You talk as if the protagonist's transformation into a woman were something chemical, cosmetic or surgical, like the transition from a man to a trans woman or from a woman to a trans man, but it is something totally focused on the line of fiction, he physically becomes a woman for whole, but with his thoughts and memories as a man.

The game is clearly not written in a progressive way and is not about the protagonist's journey discovering himself as heterosexual, homosexual or bi, or anything else.

It's a bitching game, with the options simply designed to meet the preferences of whoever is playing, simple.

No one is saying that gays are women or that lesbians are men (at least I'm not).

 

[FatGiant]

Dude, it's obvious that this game follows the logic of a porn, it's a hentai game, what did you expect?

You talk as if the protagonist's transformation into a woman were something chemical, cosmetic or surgical, like the transition from a man to a trans woman or from a woman to a trans man, but it is something totally focused on the line of fiction, he physically becomes a woman for whole, but with his thoughts and memories as a man.

The game is clearly not written in a progressive way and is not about the protagonist's journey discovering himself as heterosexual, homosexual or bi, or anything else.

It's a bitching game, with the options simply designed to meet the preferences of whoever is playing, simple.

No one is saying that gays are women or that lesbians are men (at least I'm not).

I didn't say you were.

That honor belongs to this Dev.

Can I rate it in the Negatives now? What a crock of shit this is.

Homophobia- The Game.

Fucking hell.

Peace

 

[naoligopraisso]

I didn't say you were.

That honor belongs to this Dev.

Can I rate it in the Negatives now? What a crock of shit this is.

Homophobia- The Game.

Fucking hell.

Peace

Ok

 

[GravGrav]

I see we have another whiner harassing a game dev. How many times has it happened that it caused a dev to quit their game entirely because of a-holes on this site?

I have to admit that the argument this time is different from the usual. More often it's people whining about not having all the porn options they want or complaining that gay options even exist.

I wasn't expecting someone to be complaining about porn options, especially for a transformation game, being unrealistic. Porn (in most cases) isn't about realistic responses and most revolve around tropes, such as dom/sub stereotypes for men and women. In fact, a massive amount of the purely straight games on here are exactly those stereotypes.

There are games that are explicitly about the transformation experience in a realistic exploration of gender identity. Like The Weekend game (which I personally love). Go play those.

Don't harass devs who aren't making those kinds of games.

 

[naoligopraisso]

I see we have another whiner harassing a game dev. How many times has it happened that it caused a dev to quit their game entirely because of a-holes on this site?

I have to admit that the argument this time is different from the usual. More often it's people whining about not having all the porn options they want or complaining that gay options even exist.

I wasn't expecting someone to be complaining about porn options, especially for a transformation game, being unrealistic. Porn (in most cases) isn't about realistic responses and most revolve around tropes, such as dom/sub stereotypes for men and women. In fact, a massive amount of the purely straight games on here are exactly those stereotypes.

There are games that are explicitly about the transformation experience in a realistic exploration of gender identity. Like The Weekend game (which I personally love). Go play those.

Don't harass devs who aren't making those kinds of games.

And detail, this is one of the few devs who participates in the comments on this forum and who interacts with fans of the game outside of Patreon and who also takes into account the ideals and suggestions of others, but suddenly he is homophobic because the story of the game not progressive or realistic enough, I can count on my fingers how many good games have the option of having relationships with both genders.

 

[FatGiant]

I see we have another whiner harassing a game dev. How many times has it happened that it caused a dev to quit their game entirely because of a-holes on this site?

I have to admit that the argument this time is different from the usual. More often it's people whining about not having all the porn options they want or complaining that gay options even exist.

I wasn't expecting someone to be complaining about porn options, especially for a transformation game, being unrealistic. Porn (in most cases) isn't about realistic responses and most revolve around tropes, such as dom/sub stereotypes for men and women. In fact, a massive amount of the purely straight games on here are exactly those stereotypes.

There are games that are explicitly about the transformation experience in a realistic exploration of gender identity. Like The Weekend game (which I personally love). Go play those.

Don't harass devs who aren't making those kinds of games.

You say harass, I say play and give my opinion. My opinion is meant to improve the game and it's playability, UNTIL, I am told, or made to see, that, in fact, this game is meant as an insult to the whole LGBTQ+ community.

Obviously, it is easy to just ignore this shit. I just regret the effort and time I spent trying to get the Dev to improve it.

Tropes. Porn Logic. Realistic. There's your line of defense to a game that wants to call Gay men, women.

And I am the one harassing. Sure, why not.

Peace

And detail, this is one of the few devs who participates in the comments on this forum and who interacts with fans of the game outside of Patreon and who also takes into account the ideals and suggestions of others, but suddenly he is homophobic because the story of the game not progressive or realistic enough, I can count on my fingers how many good games have the option of having relationships with both genders.

The problem is not "progressive enough" the problem is deliberate and provocative specific offense.

You don't seem to understand that by making the transformation be based on how many times you choose a Homosexually charged option, until you turn into a woman, you are calling Homosexually oriented males, girls. They aren't girls, even if some of them call that to each other and to themselves, as a inside joke.

And it's alright, the Dev and anyone else can be Homophobic. And earn the right to be called so, like this game has earned it. At the very least, in my view.

Also there's several games that allow relationships with both genders. In some other sites they are even the majority.

Peace

 

[naoligopraisso]

You say harass, I say play and give my opinion. My opinion is meant to improve the game and it's playability, UNTIL, I am told, or made to see, that, in fact, this game is meant as an insult to the whole LGBTQ+ community.

Obviously, it is easy to just ignore this shit. I just regret the effort and time I spent trying to get the Dev to improve it.

Tropes. Porn Logic. Realistic. There's your line of defense to a game that wants to call Gay men, women.

And I am the one harassing. Sure, why not.

Peace



The problem is not "progressive enough" the problem is deliberate and provocative specific offense.

You don't seem to understand that by making the transformation be based on how many times you choose a Homosexually charged option, until you turn into a woman, you are calling Homosexually oriented males, girls. They aren't girls, even if some of them call that to each other and to themselves, as a inside joke.

And it's alright, the Dev and anyone else can be Homophobic. And earn the right to be called so, like this game has earned it. At the very least, in my view.

Also there's several games that allow relationships with both genders. In some other sites they are even the majority.

Peace

View attachment 3447314

"My opinion is to improve the game and its gameplay."

Shortly thereafter:

"The author is a homophobe and this game is shit and rubbish"

Yes, you're helping a lot to improve the game, man, I said it, and I'll say it again: the transformation from man to woman is not done psychologically, hormonally and surgically like it is in real life, the protagonist becomes a woman completely ( with breasts, vagina and maybe even uterus) in a fantasy way, through a drug, and this happens regardless of whether you choose the gay or straight options, you can literally choose the most boring options in the game and barely interact with the characters that do so It will still happen, why? because it is part of the game's narrative and the story that the author has planned (which honestly for me is much better than simply making a game with the option of two protagonists, a man or a woman).

I'm sorry to tell you this, but this game, like 95% of the games on this forum were made with the sole intention of people having fun, masturbating to their fetishes and for the author to make money from it, now if you prefer to set up a conspiracy theory that the author is homophobic and disrespectful of the LGBT community, great, but at least have an argument and evidence to support this, because if he is disrespecting the LGBT community just because the characters behave as if they were in a porn, then everyone so are the game authors on this site.

 

[naoligopraisso]

the author is so homophobic that he put gay scenes and interactions in the game, he is so disrespectful of the lgbt community that he put sex with trans in the game.

 

[KingEddy]

I understand what you mean, I also don't agree with the type of symbol that is used, but I understand what the author meant with the choices, but it's a matter of just saying that he could change that. without stress and headaches, otherwise just don't play, because being gay is not being feminine, or a woman, or submissive or something like that, they are two men who are attracted to each other and there is no such thing as a being man and the other woman, we have to put an end to this stereotype.

 

[KingEddy]

I like the game he's making, there have been many projects canceled and I hope this isn't another one, so I don't want to encourage to give up, I think the game's intuition is cool, the art is really cool, the story is calm, I just think It's trying to tackle many things at the same time, you won't be able to please everyone, but you can improve aspects so that it's a calm and stress-free game.

 

[greono]

Making it clear that I am not homophobic or any other type of “phobic” and if I provoked the opposite interpretation of this, I say that it was not my intention. Sorry, but if my content is offensive, I must say that it is best not to consume it.

Making it even clearer: I'm not here to give a primer, nor give moral/conduct lessons, nor try to convey the vision of any group/community (In the game, they are not mentioned and will not exist). No real-world city is mentioned, nor country, nor any existing personality, nor any government body or wing, or political ideology.

I decided to create the game years ago with the pure intention of entertaining and it is in this sense that I will continue development. I must remember that it is a work of fiction, and although I want to bring “realistic” emotions, actions, dialogues and situations, it is still a work of fiction.

In the game you can be a man or a woman (in your time), be gay or straight, like older or younger people, we will even have romance with an animal. What you want to see will depend on your choices, you may want to see everything or nothing.

 

[naoligopraisso]

It's sad that a developer has to justify itself and say something is obvious to 99% of those here, about porn logic being used in a porn game, it's as if an adult film producer had to justify itself by saying things like: "We don't support incest, they're just actors, this guy isn't actually having sex with his own sister" "They are just doing roleplay, we don't support the plumber or the pizza delivery guy fucking your mother."

Let's write a more realistic and progressive game here now.

"John sees a beautiful woman walking down the train aisle and thinks about looking at her butt, but then he remembers that if he gets caught it's considered harassment, so he opts to look at his cell phone."

"John meets Lindsey's ex, who despite being handsome, is still an asshole, John thinks about looking at Bret's massive dick marked in his pants, but chooses not to do so to avoid reinforcing stereotypes about gays"

"John for some unknown reason wakes up and sees that his own body has completely changed to that of a woman, he despairs, but soon remembers that even though he is a woman now, he can still wear clothes made for men, John remembers also that even though I'm a woman now, that doesn't mean he can only have relationships with men."

 

[KingEddy]

exactly, they are fetishes, go with yours and without having to give explanations about what each one likes, and best of all without prejudice about that, even if your ideology is contrary to what moral conduct requires, who here doesn't have the desire of giving or eating someone who could be considered a fucking scumbag or even a straight fetish, it's your pleasure regardless of what it is. I think we have to stop mimimi, or trying to raise false morals that even those who are pointing the finger at.

and if you are going to put it in porn mode, sometimes the moralist must have a huge boner for the neighbor's husband who must be a fucking scumbag, who knows that he beats his wife, cheats on her, but must imagine himself between four walls with him. Each one with it's each one.

And in the game there's this thing about being more feminine or masculine, but there's a dom and a sub, that is, you can put on that scrotum of Bret, suck his toe and treat him like a little dog.

 

[naoligopraisso]

Personally, I consider myself bisexual (although I have more preference for women or trans women), but I love it when a game on this site offers more relationship and sex options beyond the "waifu stereotype" or "aunt, mother, cousin, sister) , and that doesn't mean I keep going to threads and saying things like "this game lacks diversity", "it's not realistic enough", "why can't I have sex with the male characters in the game? Is the author homophobic?"

 

[GrenGren]

So speaking as a queer man,

If the symbols or the themes end up being issues, it'll be more obvious later and you can ajust from there, maybe even a full inversion to represent attraction towards rather than personnal gender, or detaching them from each other, a third sort of non binary aspect, Whatever it is deal with it later. I do think that there is an imbalance in the connection between Fem and Submission, and the Masc and Dom. There is some Fem/Dom stuff with Brett but only if you have certain skills, and there are actually no masc and sub options yet butI think you have set that up really well with the aunt fugure.

But we are on a 0.02, it's more important at this stage to push through and get this gender flip done because from there you will understand how it's piecing together better. I actually finacially supported the OG games years ago, but I cannot commit to that here until I see progress, Your patreon is obviously not doing horrendiously, but you have to get the work down before people like myself will be back onboard.

I actually also want to say that for a 0.02 it's really solid, it's impressive, I think that Fat Giant might be so affected here because there is so much potential, I actually have a lot of respect for you coming back and owning up to your previous mistakes with games and trying again, in spite if snarky rude comments in this thread.

I also think people could afford some grace for language usage, I remember the origional translation issues, you are much better than you were, again i think you should just push through to the gender flip and get the games full premise before changing things, that stuff should be column B.

I understand your want to do this 0.021 as a sort of update, and now that your made it complete it. but I think some of those issues could have been delt with later. maybe a hotfix for deafing people but outside that you should just push through and put some meat on the bones later.

The Company is one of the most popular games on the site, and maybe ever within the genre of porn games, but even it has backfill content, heck it's due to complete this year but even then they are doing a full art overhaul. the bones of the project needs to be done first and then flesh will be properly supported, otherwise you end up with a mess.

 

[naoligopraisso]

So speaking as a queer man,

If the symbols or the themes end up being issues, it'll be more obvious later and you can ajust from there, maybe even a full inversion to represent attraction towards rather than personnal gender, or detaching them from each other, a third sort of non binary aspect, Whatever it is deal with it later. I do think that there is an imbalance in the connection between Fem and Submission, and the Masc and Dom. There is some Fem/Dom stuff with Brett but only if you have certain skills, and there are actually no masc and sub options yet butI think you have set that up really well with the aunt fugure.

But we are on a 0.02, it's more important at this stage to push through and get this gender flip done because from there you will understand how it's piecing together better. I actually finacially supported the OG games years ago, but I cannot commit to that here until I see progress, Your patreon is obviously not doing horrendiously, but you have to get the work down before people like myself will be back onboard.

I actually also want to say that for a 0.02 it's really solid, it's impressive, I think that Fat Giant might be so affected here because there is so much potential, I actually have a lot of respect for you coming back and owning up to your previous mistakes with games and trying again, in spite if snarky rude comments in this thread.

I also think people could afford some grace for language usage, I remember the origional translation issues, you are much better than you were, again i think you should just push through to the gender flip and get the games full premise before changing things, that stuff should be column B.

I understand your want to do this 0.021 as a sort of update, and now that your made it complete it. but I think some of those issues could have been delt with later. maybe a hotfix for deafing people but outside that you should just push through and put some meat on the bones later.

The Company is one of the most popular games on the site, and maybe ever within the genre of porn games, but even it has backfill content, heck it's due to complete this year but even then they are doing a full art overhaul. the bones of the project needs to be done first and then flesh will be properly supported, otherwise you end up with a mess.

I think that when it comes to questioning why heterosexuality is represented with the male symbol and homosexuality with the female symbol, it is a valid point to feel uncomfortable or strange, I do not deny this and have not denied it at any time.

So much so that I even think it's valid that if more people feel this way, I really support giving ideas/suggestions that help improve this aspect of the game, as I mentioned before, maybe changing the symbols or maybe simply disappearing with them.

The protagonist could just be a blank sheet of paper with no defined sexuality whose choices and interactions with the characters are defined solely by the protagonist's attributes, the affinity points and the personal fetishes of whoever is playing the game, for example:

In all versions of the game, when the protagonist gets off the train and agrees to pretend to be Lindsey's boyfriend, you always need to have "X" number of love and lust points with her to be able to unlock the more "spicy" actions" at the station. I think that simply depending on the points in love, friendship and lust would be a solution that would calm the spirits of those who feel more bothered by how the game is currently.

However, I do not evaluate Fat Giant's conduct as "very affected by seeing the potential of the game", I think that this user's comments were deliberately aimed at hating the author and the game, as he simply gave up trying to explain his point is to actually try to give constructive criticism to simply say "this game is shit and this author is a homophobe".