Unity Tax & Engine Alternatives

[Count Morado]

It's only the change in the earning threshold that is interesting here, since, as I said, I really feel like at least half the Unity games available here already broke the installs one.

I don't know why people are so fixated about the install number for small/intermediate developers. Again, I've said this previously - I would suspect even mediocre or intermediate developers have easily hit the 200,000 installs against the lifetime of their game because of links listed on F95 and similar sites. So I agree on that.

Spoiler: The difference

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Finally, because we both seem to be using walls... It would be great if further counter arguments focus on simply one topic of the mess in short detail until hammered out and then moving on to another. I don't know if we're effectively communicating or simply talking past each other because of the walls of text.

 

[TheDevian]

I'm tempted to say that most of them, if not all, did it.

Baal/

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(Super Powered 2) is relatively known, yet still small with only 637 patrons for between 1K and 4K by month. But, assuming that 1 out of 100 players decide to pledge (what is already a high estimate), it mean 63,700 installs by update. Three updates, and he's already over the install threshold.
With Super Powered (that was made with Ren'Py), he needed 45 updates, with at least one bugfix by update, sometimes up to four. So it's what ? Counting an average of 1.5 bugfix it's still more than 7 millions installs.
Yet only based on my high estimate for the patron/player ratio, and for a dev that is far to hit the earning threshold.

And, the more I think about it, the more the issue lie here.
Edef have 8,869 patrons what, with the same high ratio lead to 886,900 installs by update.
He can afford the fees, but what about a new coming dev ? He'll starts low, but the install pills up. The day his game finally get the support he deserve, and he hit the earning threshold, it will be what ? 3, 4, more surely something like 10, millions installs that he'll have to pay in one go...

Plus there's a point I noticed that no one talk about, because it's not about money. As dev you'll have to works online, with a tolerance for three consecutive days offline.
You're boss want to know what you are doing. Except that he's not your boss and it's you who'll have to pay him if you do a good job. This feel at least as much concerning as their new fees.
And, incidentally, there's again some legal reservation regarding this point.




It's only the change in the earning threshold that is interesting here, since, as I said, I really feel like at least half the Unity games available here already broke the installs one.

Hmmm, let's see... TheDevian do you know the number of installs for Bonds of Blood ?

Not a clue, no, but before the number of installs matters, I would have to make $200k a year on it, so that isn't really likely any time soon. Most of us will not really be affected, at least not until the games get on Steam and the like (and even then, only if we are really lucky), since remember, when they donate to patreon, they are not buying the game, they are donating to your process.

Also, hopefully, the pirates around here, are smart enough to use a firewall to block the games from going online, but I give people too much credit.

In theory, it was only supposed to count one install per person, but how they figure out what is a unique install, is still really unclear.

A lot of this is legally gray at best, so we are going to have to see how it plays out. While the last thing I want to do is have to start over for a third time, I will not be using them again for any other games after this. What little trust I had is gone.

 

[c3p0]

How do they track them in the first place? I mean, you can add this function to the basic Unity engine and have it always force one. But then you only need to know what to block and then it is the cat and mouse game all along.
Simpler would be tracking the number of downloads through Steam, Android/Apple store, GoG and the likes, you don't need something that can be blocked on your PC and both number have a relation to the other...

But I don't have any high hopes for John Riccitiello, who was a "fantastic" CEO of EA between 2007 and 2013 with his great ideas how to milk the cash cow.

 

[Hagatagar]

200,000 installs (and reinstalls) during the lifetime of the title

They changed that.

Spoiler

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But I haven't read anything official if updates count or not.

since remember, when they donate to patreon, they are not buying the game, they are donating to your process.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't matter, because it's not about sales revenue, it's about any revenue generated by and through the game. So this includes donations, subscribers like Patron (they will try to fee them instead the dev), in-game ads, and (if to be believed) even merch about this game.

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How do they track them in the first place? I mean, you can add this function to the basic Unity engine and have it always force one. But then you only need to know what to block and then it is the cat and mouse game all along.
Simpler would be tracking the number of downloads through Steam, Android/Apple store, GoG and the likes, you don't need something that can be blocked on your PC and both number have a relation to the other...

Spoiler: Magic?

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[anne O'nymous]

All of this being said, this means that Unity - for the big creators - will create problems. If Edef has $1 million annual game earnings and 100,000 installs each month (not hard to consider) - even with Enterprise, they will be spending 15% on Unity Runtime Fees, alone (100,000 installs * $0.125 * 12 months and then add $3,000 for license = $153,000 in Unity fees in one year).

I don't know their update frequency, but as I said, it's more about 1 millions installs by update. So your numbers are really low here.

And that - that is a huge problem. It's a fucking Elon of a problem.

Isn't it what I said previously ?
But you missed the point, because I was pointing another side of the problem, more concerning than "they want our money".

A dev/team already above the threshold, or near to it, don't care this much. Of course, it's money they have to pay, but they know they'll have to pay it, and they relatively know how much they'll have to pay. They have three months to put it aside, and starting now will adapt their budget to take count of this.

But a new dev will hit a wall the instant he'll reach the earning threshold.
He can't predict his earning evolution. He will be way below the earning threshold the first year, start to make it big the second year, and the third year it's a miracle. His September update was really well received, he's at US$ 120,000 for the year so far. October, November pass, he's now at 146,000. Prediction for December are around 160,000, including a raise in patrons number. It's fine, he's 40,000 below the earning threshold, he'll not make it in one month, right ? So, no need to pass to the pro license, he'll do it next year if the tendency is confirmed by the last update.
But people were so hyped by his game that they are desperately waiting for the next update... Waiting it to finally jump in. And, isn't December the best month to finally buy a game ? You know that you can afford to spend those bucks, in two weeks the year will end and you still have them in bank.
So, come December and the last update of the year. His number of patrons raise significantly this time (significant growth always happen when the update is released), and god, he never sold so much on itch.io and Steam.
Bingo, US$ 41,000 unexpected earning come to finish his year. Then come Unity's new year wishes... "Congratulation, you made US$ 200,000 this year, don't forget to pay the fees for the 3 millions installs you had that same year."
How the fuck did he pay this ?

And when you looks at the creators support evolution over the years, it's not that theoretical as situation.
Even a situation where you pass from the 150,000 in November to the 200,000+ in December isn't impossible. We seen something similar with BrainDrop. But this guy can't pay. He used all the money to payback his starting expenses, improve his setup, and change the house appliance because his wife pass her time complaining that they are too old and don't really works anymore.
At no time he thought that he would make it this big, and now he's fucked, forced to take a loan on his name to pay Unity.

The issue have never been established dev, it's the newcomers that will be hit the harder, and many can end in deep shit.

 

[anne O'nymous]

[Sorry for the double post, but Count is right, let's focus one topic at a time]

Not a clue, no, but before the number of installs matters, I would have to make $200k a year on it, so that isn't really likely any time soon. Most of us will not really be affected, at least not until the games get on Steam and the like (and even then, only if we are really lucky),

It's precisely why the number of installs interested me.
Please, take no offense, you know that I like you, but so far Bonds of Blood don't really found the success it deserve. So, you are at the low end in terms of installs, what offer a better vision regarding how many installs can be expected for games with more support.

Because, while the earning are important because they represent a threshold and a security net for small creators, it's the number of installs that will be used to pay the fees. And it's not here that we will forget that piracy is an important factor.
If your handful of supporters lead to, let's say 1,000 installs, the US$ 153,000 estimated by Count Morado for Edef would be more like 1 million... And here there would be a big problem, because it's more than the yearly earning.

Getting Count number of US$ 0.125/install, counting the fact that Edef make US$ 8,58/patron on Patreon, and counting an update every three months, with just 71 pirated copy installed by number of patrons, a third of his earning would goes in fees for Unity. And it's fucking too big...
And like I already said, I expect the ratio to be more on the 100 pirate for one supporter. What would be near to half of the earning and smell like a fucking scam.

since remember, when they donate to patreon, they are not buying the game, they are donating to your process.

Sorry to break the news, because it's a bad one, but, I don't remember in what thread I saw it, Unity will count the pledges and donations as part of the earning.

Also, hopefully, the pirates around here, are smart enough to use a firewall to block the games from going online, but I give people too much credit.

One out of four perhaps, but when I look at the posts in the troubleshooting part of the forum, some looks like turning their computer on is already their major achievement of the day.

In theory, it was only supposed to count one install per person, but how they figure out what is a unique install, is still really unclear.

How they'll do, I don't know. But how they can isn't too difficult. The issue is more that if you change your computer, or want to play during your holidays and also install the game on your laptop, it will count for a new install.
Hagatagar quote address the reinstall issue, but they don't seem to have changed their "each device count for a new install".

A lot of this is legally gray at best, [...]

I agree on this. It's probably the reason why they changed their "one install, period" by a "one install, reinstall don't count".

While the last thing I want to do is have to start over for a third time, I will not be using them again for any other games after this. What little trust I had is gone.

Side Note: we should probably warn the temptress about this, since she was looking at Unity for the after Heavy Five. (I'm at works, can't do it right now)

 

[c3p0]

How they'll do, I don't know. But how they can isn't too difficult. The issue is more that if you change your computer, or want to play during your holidays and also install the game on your laptop, it will count for a new install.
Hagatagar quote address the reinstall issue, but they don't seem to have changed their "each device count for a new install".

I think they are two options. Either count the downloads from every (official) site and store, count the purchase or try to track the installation. All methods have their flawed at best.

So either the get a number from Steam, Epic, whoever and only if they cooperate, what they don't need to do. If they do it this way most likely their terms will include something along that the dev must provide this numbers, so simple shift the difficult to him.
Yet, you don't count installations, only downloads. Also Unity would need to trust their devs and currently I doubt that.

Second variant seems for my the ideal case as they would track sale figures instead of downloads or installations. Every devs should know them, be it the sale from Steam or his current subscriber on Patreon. But again Unity would need to trust their devs and currently I doubt that.

Last one is the easist, add an anoying thing into their Unity client that talks back with big evil Unity home and report his findings. Doubt that is practical in the EU and some of us might request that they provide all the information they collected about us over this way. Obviously although you can track every installtion in this case if there is no firewall between it that blocks that (1/10 may probably do that).
You also required some information from the game to track each game with any of the devs. So, they could try to avoid it by circumvent it. Also normal installtion, bugfix installtion, demo installtion might or might not be distinguish and of course multiple installtions on different device by the same person who only brought it is one time almost sure not. Same goes for all the illegal downloads.
Also negativ, if the devs don't get the number of installtion from Unity back, he don't have a chance to know how near he is by that threshold. Worst case, some might earn more than 200'000 $/year due a very succesfull Patreon campain - I know highly unlikly, but theoretical possible. And suddenly they get a mail form them informing that the past the threshold last month and now they need to pay for it. Not that they couldn't do that, if a huge bill simple pops up in your planing that doesn't help you and can be very difficult in comparsion if you could have anticipate.

 

[Michelangelo da Mouso]

Unity already said they will track installs with their property software. They won't go to Apple, Google Play, steam or anybody.

The tricky thing here is to track revenue generated by the game. Unless you have in-app purchases and in-app ads inside your game, they can't access to that information unless the user provides it.

Most likely, once they detect the number of installs pass the $200k, they will block access to your Unity Hub and will ask you to provide earnings from the game. Once you do, they will unblock the access. If you don't provide numbers, most likely you won't be able to continue developing your game (at least from that unity account).

 

[Hagatagar]

Second variant seems for my the ideal case as they would track sale figures instead of downloads or installations. Every devs should know them, be it the sale from Steam or his current subscriber on Patreon.

That's the crux for Unity, a large portion of Unity games are free mobile games without any sales, and Unity wants a share of any revenue that is made in-game (ads, in game purchases).

Most likely, once they detect the number of installs pass the $200k, they will block access to your Unity Hub and will ask you to provide earnings from the game. Once you do, they will unblock the access. If you don't provide numbers, most likely you won't be able to continue developing your game (at least from that unity account).

That sounds terrifying.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I think they are two options. Either count the downloads from every (official) site and store, count the purchase or try to track the installation.

There's a third one, and it's an almost flawless one: They stop to be greedy idiots, forget about the idea to count something, and they do like Epic is doing with Unreal Engine ; you earned more than X, you give us Y percent.
I works fine for Unreal, I don't remember them really changing their terms, why shouldn't it works fine for Unity ?

It would be clear. Everyone would know precisely how much he have to pay and why he have to pay so much. There's no, "yeah, but this guy you count it twice while I know that he just changed his hard drive". And pirated versions, that pays nothing to the dev, do not suddenly pays something to Unity. Therefore, there's way less possible legal issue.

They can perfectly do it while taking count of small devs and small indie studios:
200,000 -> 500,000 = 1%
500,000 -> 750,000 = 2.5%
750,000 -> 1,000,000 = 4%
> 1,000,000 = 5%
They can even go further and decide that above 2 millions it will be 7% by example. I'm sure that someone who earn 2 millions/year can afford to pay 7% of this to Unity.

Of course, they'll argue that some small dev and indies studios will lie regarding their earning. They have a Patreon/tip jar/whatever, and will not count it. But the fuck, is Unity so endangered that they need to get 10 more bucks from a guy who just try to follow his heart and do some coding by passion ?
And, of course, the same apply for Unreal ; I doubt that Epic would have a nervous breakdown if Adeptus Steve pretend to earn less that the team effectively earn.

All gaming scene counted, there's probably not more than 20, 30 at most, people concerned by this. But when you earn 1 million/year through this, you aren't an individual working in his living-room. You're a registered company, or any kind of registered structure depending on your country. You need to have a clear accounting and to publish your results. So, it's only the few guys in between that can possibly lie regarding their earning and they would also be the ones that pays the least.
Compared to what Unity would get from mobile games and their ads and in-game purchases, it would represent what ? 1% of the yearly income, at most. Is it really what Unity became ? A company ready to ass fuck, and do it raw, devs that focus on computer market, just to earn less than 1% more ? Well, they have to lower their stupid CEO salary, I'm sure that they'll economize more than this.
The question is of course rhetorical...

 

[c3p0]

There's a third one, and it's an almost flawless one:

That would actually be number four, as I've written three options and labled them as two. So, counting may at least not be my stronghold.

They stop to be greedy idiots, forget about the idea to count something, and they do like Epic is doing with Unreal Engine ; you earned more than X, you give us Y percent.

Well if that happend I will send my wish list to them - it doesn't have a Ferrari or so on it, but nevertheless would be expensive.

....
Compared to what Unity would get from mobile games and their ads and in-game purchases, it would represent what ? 1% of the yearly income, at most. Is it really what Unity became ? A company ready to ass fuck, and do it raw, devs that focus on computer market, just to earn less than 1% more ? Well, they have to lower their stupid CEO salary, I'm sure that they'll economize more than this.
The question is of course rhetorical...

Unity have the CEO that was between 2007 and 2013 the CEO of EA. He had brilliant ideas as to charge the players for each clip they used in Battelfied among others better or worser ideas and products. It is also in his time as CEO that EA earned the title of worst company of the USA twice...

 

[zapzero]

Unity already said they will track installs with their property software. They won't go to Apple, Google Play, steam or anybody.

"Proprietary software" in Unity speak is the classic "trust me bro" moment.

They can't reveal their shitty methods, because:

1. it's all bullshit
2. It's illegal, and they are breaking their old ToS/several countries' laws for using that level of telemetry and charging based on it
3. It's flawed af, like how Hollywood strikers are trying to get 3rd party external companies to judge how popular a streaming movie is, by using wonky metrics like google search results and youtube views, meaning the WORST rated movie like Cats, will be mislabelled as "very popular/good" by those 3rd parties because they do well in those metrics.

Either way, Unity is sniffing farts out of their ass and telling us it's great.

 

[wildride69]

I wouldn't touch Unity with a 10 foot pole. Really unclear on how things will be calculated at all the tracking that needs to take place to maintain their monetization structure. Also the "TRUST ME BRO" attitude to what if pirates reinstall 1000x on VM's.

They burned their trust in a big way with developers. Sneaky ways they edited out information in their old TOS before this announcement.

Unity just No.

 

[Count Morado]

"Congratulation, you made US$ 200,000 this year, don't forget to pay the fees for the 3 millions installs you had that same year."
How the fuck did he pay this ?

I'm am just going to comment on this one piece of your reply to me.

This ISN'T how it will work. It's a monthly fee based upon the monthly activity. See below from Unity (with a grain of salt):

Unity isn't charging the developer for all 4 million lifetime installs over the threshold - just the installs for the prior month.

Hopefully that gives you a little relief about a worry of an immediate $600,000+ bill for a newly $200,000 developer who had 3 million installs against the lifetime of the game over the past 5 years.

 

[Michelangelo da Mouso]

All gaming scene counted, there's probably not more than 20, 30 at most, people concerned by this.

Who are you counting as "all gaming scene"?

You need to have a clear accounting and to publish your results.

At least in USA, private companies don't have to make their financials public. And I think neither in the EU.

Compared to what Unity would get from mobile games and their ads and in-game purchases, it would represent what ? 1% of the yearly income, at most.

Can you develop?

 

[wildride69]

I think their is a lot of bad information for an against unity in this thread. Hoegs Law did a breakdown, If you are wondering about this issue as a DEV I would check out his break down as a lawyer and not what people think on a random forum.

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Start their and call a good lawyer before you start or continue programming in Unity in my opinion.

 

[anne O'nymous]

At least in USA, private companies don't have to make their financials public. And I think neither in the EU.

And you

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.
Yet you aren't totally wrong, because strictly speaking the financial reports don't need to be public. But they have to be sent to the regulation authorities, that all have a public access policy.
It's like for taxes forms, at least in many Western countries. You don't have to release yours public, but anyone can consult it in your local [IRS equivalent] center.

Can you develop?

Develop what ?
The fact is that the one or two handful of indie devs/studios that trigger the earning threshold, while developing a game updated four time a year, do not compare with the thousands of studios chaining mobile games and making few millions each year through ads and in-game purchase. I thought that it was relatively obvious...
To take only one, the studio that made the last game I played (because it's the only one I remember right now) Fanatee have 7 mobiles games and made

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. I'm 99% sure that even put together, adult games creators using Unity do not make really more, if even they make as much, with their around two thousands games. And, to the exclusion of few A/AA studios, if you cumul the earnings for all Unity games made for computers, you probably just approach what the biggest studio making mobile games with Unity is earning.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Unity have the CEO that was between 2007 and 2013 the CEO of EA. He had brilliant ideas as to charge the players for each clip they used in Battelfied among others better or worser ideas and products. It is also in his time as CEO that EA earned the title of worst company of the USA twice...

Well, it's not too surprising. A shark being hired by a company that is a shark... And like all shark, he always have the worse ideas, because he's totally unable to see the obvious.
In the present case, there's always a moment when a mobile game popularity will decrease. But this doesn't mean that the actual players will stop to play and, therefore, that the game will stop to generate incomes, just that there will be less installs. Yet, apparently Unity don't want of this part of the cake since they only charge by installs.

 

[Count Morado]

I think their is a lot of bad information for an against unity in this thread. Hoegs Law did a breakdown, If you are wondering about this issue as a DEV I would check out his break down as a lawyer and not what people think on a random forum.

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Start their and call a good lawyer before you start or continue programming in Unity in my opinion.

• First, I agree that developers who feel they may be effected by this change need to talk to an attorney and financial advisor about what course of actions they have - either moving to another platform or how to move forward while still using Unity.
• Second, I just read the entire transcript of that video and perused several moments of the video. The video is hitting on exactly the same points and coming to either the same or very similar conclusions that I and several others with a shred of common sense, intellect, and experience have been discussing throughout. Your take that there "is a lot of bad information for an [sic] against" is obtuse and broad in nature. There are some very well thought out posts in this thread with compelling arguments. And, yes, there are some with purely reactionary responses. That is why people should use critical thinking when reading any forum.
• Third, I also agree with you that everything us randos say on a forum - whom people do not know or know if they can trust - should be taken with a grain of salt. Hell, I have preached that mantra for a long time in other threads about copyright, content, and other topics. That said, unless I'm mistaken none of the people here have made any actual advice to anyone (at least those, again, with a shred of common sense, intellect, and experience and are not Chicken Littles who always claim the sky is falling) to any developers. We have simply raised awareness, asked questions, and offered out viewpoints on the poor concept, implementation, and possible effects this may have on a very small number of developers who will need to do similarly on their own and with their professional counsels.
• Finally, also being noted in this thread is the evolution of positioning by Unity on their Runtime Fee and how they plan to implement it. Hagatar and several others have shared the updates in this thread about Unity's changing position. This is exemplary of how certain CEOs and Boards make terrible decisions without proper critical thought and having to backtrack because of their short-term vision. I wouldn't doubt that by the time this Runtime Fee may actually be implemented that it is a shadow of its original form introduced this past week. That one video you are pointing people to already has several aspects that are already out of date because of the changes since three days ago.

 

[TheDevian]

How do they track them in the first place? I mean, you can add this function to the basic Unity engine and have it always force one. But then you only need to know what to block and then it is the cat and mouse game all along.
Simpler would be tracking the number of downloads through Steam, Android/Apple store, GoG and the likes, you don't need something that can be blocked on your PC and both number have a relation to the other...

But I don't have any high hopes for John Riccitiello, who was a "fantastic" CEO of EA between 2007 and 2013 with his great ideas how to milk the cash cow.

That's the thing, even they don't know how yet. They don't really have a full plan, last I looked. It's like he is trying to sabotage the company. It's very strange.

[Sorry for the double post, but Count is right, let's focus one topic at a time]



It's precisely why the number of installs interested me.
Please, take no offense, you know that I like you, but so far Bonds of Blood don't really found the success it deserve. So, you are at the low end in terms of installs, what offer a better vision regarding how many installs can be expected for games with more support.

Because, while the earning are important because they represent a threshold and a security net for small creators, it's the number of installs that will be used to pay the fees. And it's not here that we will forget that piracy is an important factor.
If your handful of supporters lead to, let's say 1,000 installs, the US$ 153,000 estimated by Count Morado for Edef would be more like 1 million... And here there would be a big problem, because it's more than the yearly earning.

Getting Count number of US$ 0.125/install, counting the fact that Edef make US$ 8,58/patron on Patreon, and counting an update every three months, with just 71 pirated copy installed by number of patrons, a third of his earning would goes in fees for Unity. And it's fucking too big...
And like I already said, I expect the ratio to be more on the 100 pirate for one supporter. What would be near to half of the earning and smell like a fucking scam.




Sorry to break the news, because it's a bad one, but, I don't remember in what thread I saw it, Unity will count the pledges and donations as part of the earning.




One out of four perhaps, but when I look at the posts in the troubleshooting part of the forum, some looks like turning their computer on is already their major achievement of the day.




How they'll do, I don't know. But how they can isn't too difficult. The issue is more that if you change your computer, or want to play during your holidays and also install the game on your laptop, it will count for a new install.
Hagatagar quote address the reinstall issue, but they don't seem to have changed their "each device count for a new install".




I agree on this. It's probably the reason why they changed their "one install, period" by a "one install, reinstall don't count".




Side Note: we should probably warn the temptress about this, since she was looking at Unity for the after Heavy Five. (I'm at works, can't do it right now)

Yeah, it is all very vague.

Even if I paid attention to downloads, that doesn't really give me # of installs, so I wouldn't even know how to track that if I wanted to. lol
I can check the number of downloads of one version, on one platform, but not much beyond that (that I know of). For me, this is just a stupidly expensive hobby, at least for now.

They way they changed the asset download/store access not long ago had me already planning to change when I make my next game, but this is the last straw, and if it gets too bad, we will have to change mid game, and that would REALLY be upsetting.