Vae Victis - Khan: metagame discussion

[Doorknob22]

A few thoughts regarding "retreating as a tactical option" as brought up in the main game thread. As I wrote, I don't intend to block this option for players who wish to use it. The game doesn't overflow with tactical options, I'd rather refine the existing ones instead of blocking them.
1. Retreating might cause a small drop of Obedience in your fiefdoms. It makes sense and it seems like the natural opposite of Obedience boost when you conquer a fiefdom.
2. In a similar manner, some troops loss when retreating. Probably something like 20-30% rounding up.


The penalties might be negated by a Wench bonus, a specific building or other conditions.

3. For the sake of fairness and realism, add a very slow troops growth from the fiefdom you attacked and retreated from.

4. Raids: when your Khaganate is large enough, raids become a hassle, even if you defeat them automatically. I'm thinking that a fiefdom containing more than 19 troops will simply never be raided, leading to a smoother experience in larger Khaganate. This could be a Barracks upgrade, for giving players more things to do with their gold.

 

[Stil996]

A few thoughts regarding "retreating as a tactical option" as brought up in the main game thread. As I wrote, I don't intend to block this option for players who wish to use it. The game doesn't overflow with tactical options, I'd rather refine the existing ones instead of blocking them.
1. Retreating might cause a small drop of Obedience in your fiefdoms. It makes sense and it seems like the natural opposite of Obedience boost when you conquer a fiefdom.
2. In a similar manner, some troops loss when retreating. Probably something like 20-30% rounding up.


The penalties might be negated by a Wench bonus, a specific building or other conditions.

3. For the sake of fairness and realism, add a very slow troops growth from the fiefdom you attacked and retreated from.

4. Raids: when your Khaganate is large enough, raids become a hassle, even if you defeat them automatically. I'm thinking that a fiefdom containing more than 19 troops will simply never be raided, leading to a smoother experience in larger Khaganate. This could be a Barracks upgrade, for giving players more things to do with their gold.

One of the best qualities you can promote in your troops is the will to be resolute in the face of death, standing firm and meeting the enemy with their shields and spears. Retreating might be the smart decision from time to time, but each time you do so you undermine the backbone of your army.

A major consequence of retreating as a strategy should be that troops that do it to often will probably start doing it without orders. I can't imagine too many soldiers being happy about retreating from the same enemy over and over again, I can't think of anything more demoralizing.

How do you recruit troops into an army lead by a man famous for leading his troops to death then running away to save his own skin?

For Retreat to be strategically valid option for more than a couple of uses, I think you need a special attack option, something like "Guerilla warfare" were you plan to engage for a very specific number of turns with an emphasis on causing as much damage at range then retreating before the enemy musters the will to charge through the rain of arrows (a morale check vs the enemy leaders obedience score maybe?), with the obvious risk being that if they pass the check they will likely massacre your forces as they try to disengage.

 

[PVNUser]

One of the best qualities you can promote in your troops is the will to be resolute in the face of death, standing firm and meeting the enemy with their shields and spears. Retreating might be the smart decision from time to time, but each time you do so you undermine the backbone of your army.

A major consequence of retreating as a strategy should be that troops that do it to often will probably start doing it without orders. I can't imagine too many soldiers being happy about retreating from the same enemy over and over again, I can't think of anything more demoralizing.

How do you recruit troops into an army lead by a man famous for leading his troops to death then running away to save his own skin?

For Retreat to be strategically valid option for more than a couple of uses, I think you need a special attack option, something like "Guerilla warfare" were you plan to engage for a very specific number of turns with an emphasis on causing as much damage at range then retreating before the enemy musters the will to charge through the rain of arrows (a morale check vs the enemy leaders obedience score maybe?), with the obvious risk being that if they pass the check they will likely massacre your forces as they try to disengage.

I've definitely used the "Attack with inferior force, then retreat" tactic. It's effectively mandatory if you want to succeed on the world map and don't know some specific hidden details about how the game works (e.g. infiltration benefits only last so long, etc). Personally I don't see this tactic as a problem or anything needing change because this game is called Vae Victis: Khan.

Usage of the word Khan here makes me think of the mounted Scythian/Aryan/Mongolian warriors that terrorized the Eurasian continents for thousands of years. If the mental model you apply to the combat conceives of a small troupe of mounted warriors riding in, harassing the enemy, then quickly retreating, then this tactic makes sense. Within the fiction, these soldiers are being given a mission & accomplishing that mission. Usually that's seen as a success.

Of course what you say is also valid if you imagine the combat in a different way. A specific option for a skirmish as you suggest would improve the resolution of the combat system & help provide more definition of what is "actually" being represented. In similar vein already suggested a number of changes here, that I think would improve the combat resolution.

 

[Stil996]

I've definitely used the "Attack with inferior force, then retreat" tactic. It's effectively mandatory if you want to succeed on the world map and don't know some specific hidden details about how the game works (e.g. infiltration benefits only last so long, etc). Personally I don't see this tactic as a problem or anything needing change because this game is called Vae Victis: Khan.

Usage of the word Khan here makes me think of the mounted Scythian/Aryan/Mongolian warriors that terrorized the Eurasian continents for thousands of years. If the mental model you apply to the combat conceives of a small troupe of mounted warriors riding in, harassing the enemy, then quickly retreating, then this tactic makes sense. Within the fiction, these soldiers are being given a mission & accomplishing that mission. Usually that's seen as a success.

Of course what you say is also valid if you imagine the combat in a different way. A specific option for a skirmish as you suggest would improve the resolution of the combat system & help provide more definition of what is "actually" being represented. In similar vein already suggested a number of changes here, that I think would improve the combat resolution.

The Retreat tactic being used in this game is not the same as the Hit & Run tactic you refer to.
The retreat tactic you are using consists getting your men killed and then running away like a little bitch, then recruiting more to attack again. (No soldier in his right mind would join your army knowing this is what you will likely do to him),

The tactic I suggested is different because you are entering the fight with the plan to leave it with most of your men ALIVE, whether this is shooting arrows like I mentioned or a harassing horse charge such as those the Mongols loved. The important point is there is a plan to exit the battle at a specific moment that everyone knows about, so few are lost.

Not sure if this is within the scope of a porn game, but when your force is smaller than the enemies, it would be nice to be able to claim terrain advantages, using the features of the surrounding terrain intelligently, such taking your force into choke points like caves/tight valleys to reduce the numerical advantage of your enemy, using high mountainous ground to weaponize landslides or dense forests that can provide cover to snipe & evade.
I'd like to create specialized forces that know how use such tactics, it's not something you can reasonably expect basic conscripts pull off.

 

[PVNUser]

The Retreat tactic being used in this game is not the same as the Hit & Run tactic you refer to.

According to who? And given the constraints of the current system, why wouldn't it be, given that it's the only way to actually defeat a numerically superior army?

 

[Doorknob22]

We might be over thinking this a little...

 

[Doorknob22]

Spoiler: New fiefdom screen (WIP)

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[Stil996]

Spoiler: New fiefdom screen (WIP)

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Looks good, though maybe symbols instead of partial words, A smiley for moral for example, not sure what would be good for obedience.
What is planned for Special?

 

[Stil996]

My answer to post #2,360 from the Vae Victis - Khan: Conquer, Ravish, Breed [v0.6.11] [Doorknob22] thread

The current option is quite bad* from a game design perspective. You always want to use "Subdue" against a fuckable opponent, and never against a non-fuckable one. Not much gameplay here, and a lot of potential for people missing out on content because they didn't get it. So the change that fuckable opponents are never killed in a fight makes a lot of sense.

A high risk attack leading to a bonus scene on success is also problematic. A lot of players will be unwilling to miss out on scenes, and end up reloading the game until it works. That destroys immersion. What could work is having the high risk attack always yielding the bonus scene, but having another price to pay on failure (maybe Karder's gear gets damage and he needs to pay gold to repair it?).

*Compared to what I perceive Doorknob's standards to be. No disrespect intended.

High risk can mean a lot of things. The big point about a Subdue attack is it plays into the Dom spectrum of the game, players looking to seduce everyone won't be using it, while Dom players will like be willing to take a penalty against Romance options (Players who don't use Subdue could get a bonus scene too, something that represents a more chivalrous kind of victory)

The whole "I have beaten you, now I will fuck you" sequence at the end of current fights feels clunky to me, the Victor doesn't need to be told he has won, he doesn't wait for permission to claim the spoils he takes them.

PS. Fuckable/Non-fuckable are subjective, I'm still waiting for the option to rape that Troll and don't get me started about goblins!!

 

[Doorknob22]

My answer to post #2,360 from the Vae Victis - Khan: Conquer, Ravish, Breed [v0.6.11] [Doorknob22] thread

High risk can mean a lot of things. The big point about a Subdue attack is it plays into the Dom spectrum of the game, players looking to seduce everyone won't be using it, while Dom players will like be willing to take a penalty against Romance options (Players who don't use Subdue could get a bonus scene too, something that represents a more chivalrous kind of victory)

I didn't understand your meaning here.

The whole "I have beaten you, now I will fuck you" sequence at the end of current fights feels clunky to me, the Victor doesn't need to be told he has won, he doesn't wait for permission to claim the spoils he takes them.

Where do you feel Karder is asking for permission before raping the defeated Wenches?

PS. Fuckable/Non-fuckable are subjective, I'm still waiting for the option to rape that Troll and don't get me started about goblins!!

Are you crazy? Someone will claim that that Troll (Ogre actually) is romantically engaged and then it's the NTR haters with torches on their way to my house...

 

[Stil996]

I didn't understand your meaning here.

There are many ways to represent risk,
Physical
the most obvious risk is that you are exposing yourself to potential injury that might cost you the battle,
Other ways those could be represented is by minor injuries that stay with Karder for a set time (representing time to heal), wounds to his limbs that might affect his movement or impose penalties on subsequent battles.maybe permanent scars that reduce his ability to charm people (Traders/Diplomatic relations/Seductions).

Reputation (empire)
Reputation among Karders soldiers would definitely be affected, throwing away his sword & shield to defeat an armed warrior with a choke hold before taking her virginity would be an impressive feat that would be recounted around the campfires (both inflating Karders Rep and diminishing his opponents), while failing just makes him look foolish, after all what kind of arrogant idiot invites failure by consciously weakening himself in the face of an experienced warrior.

It should be noted I'm not trying to argue that subdue move has to be "high risk", that is just something I like to imagine as I visualize how it would play out. Representing all these penalties will likely be more trouble than it's worth. Just using it as a finishing move could work too IMO.

• Some thoughts on how a Subdue attack might manifest
  • Shield Bash style stun attacks allow the potential for your opponent to roll with your blow and get inside your defense
    (Maybe the safest technique, but most risk of injuring your prey)
  • Kicks or Headbutts allow you to retain your weapons and armor but, expose your extremities to counterattack,
    (Middle ground technique, medium risk to self, medium risk to prey)
  • Wrestling Submission hold would require you discard your sword & shield, sets obvious penalties on your attack & defense
    (most dangerous to you with almost zero risk to your prey, but most fun if you pull it off after all what better way to establish dominance over an opposing force than by beating their leader with your bare hands, tearing of her armor/clothes and ravishing her among the melee.)

Where do you feel Karder is asking for permission before raping the defeated Wenches?

Maybe "asking permission" was a poor turn of phrase, when you win the fight and you see the options to rape her, it feels clunky to me that decision could flow more if you made that decision during the battle (or before, by setting an attitude maybe), finishing with a subdue being the way to move directly into the rape scene (finishing with something like a demand to surrender with your sword at her throat might be the more chivalrous variant paving the way for a seduction scene).

Are you crazy? Someone will claim that that Troll (Ogre actually) is romantically engaged and then it's the NTR haters with torches on their way to my house...

Meh... I'll fuck the Ogre too and their respective life partners, EVERYONE gets a cream filling

 

[Doorknob22]

There are many ways to represent risk,
Physical
the most obvious risk is that you are exposing yourself to potential injury that might cost you the battle,
Other ways those could be represented is by minor injuries that stay with Karder for a set time (representing time to heal), wounds to his limbs that might affect his movement or impose penalties on subsequent battles.maybe permanent scars that reduce his ability to charm people (Traders/Diplomatic relations/Seductions).

Reputation (empire)
Reputation among Karders soldiers would definitely be affected, throwing away his sword & shield to defeat an armed warrior with a choke hold before taking her virginity would be an impressive feat that would be recounted around the campfires (both inflating Karders Rep and diminishing his opponents), while failing just makes him look foolish, after all what kind of arrogant idiot invites failure by consciously weakening himself in the face of an experienced warrior.

It should be noted I'm not trying to argue that subdue move has to be "high risk", that is just something I like to imagine as I visualize how it would play out. Representing all these penalties will likely be more trouble than it's worth. Just using it as a finishing move could work too IMO.

• Some thoughts on how a Subdue attack might manifest
  • Shield Bash style stun attacks allow the potential for your opponent to roll with your blow and get inside your defense
    (Maybe the safest technique, but most risk of injuring your prey)
  • Kicks or Headbutts allow you to retain your weapons and armor but, expose your extremities to counterattack,
    (Middle ground technique, medium risk to self, medium risk to prey)
  • Wrestling Submission hold would require you discard your sword & shield, sets obvious penalties on your attack & defense
    (most dangerous to you with almost zero risk to your prey, but most fun if you pull it off after all what better way to establish dominance over an opposing force than by beating their leader with your bare hands, tearing of her armor/clothes and ravishing her among the melee.)

Maybe "asking permission" was a poor turn of phrase, when you win the fight and you see the options to rape her, it feels clunky to me that decision could flow more if you made that decision during the battle (or before, by setting an attitude maybe), finishing with a subdue being the way to move directly into the rape scene (finishing with something like a demand to surrender with your sword at her throat might be the more chivalrous variant paving the way for a seduction scene).



Meh... I'll fuck the Ogre too and their respective life partners, EVERYONE gets a cream filling

What I'm trying to understand is why kill a Wench or other fuckables? Because if there's no reason to kill them, adding the Subdue (which 99% of the players want to do anyway) is not much of an option.

Giving players an "option" that 99% would choose is cheating myself, it's not an option at all. And currently I feel that no one ever intends to kill the Wench, they only come to the thread, surprised they can't find her in the Holding Cells...

 

[Stil996]

What I'm trying to understand is why kill a Wench or other fuckables? Because if there's no reason to kill them, adding the Subdue (which 99% of the players want to do anyway) is not much of an option.

Giving players an "option" that 99% would choose is cheating myself, it's not an option at all. And currently I feel that no one ever intends to kill the Wench, they only come to the thread, surprised they can't find her in the Holding Cells...

OK... Crossed Wires lol... I wasn't suggesting killing them, you fight them as normal, wearing them down till Karder starts spotting opportunities to end it, at which point he either attempts a subdue move which leads directly into a rape scene or continue as normal which leads into an honourable surrender scene (no reason he can't still rape them just as it's currently implimented, just flows better IMO).

Either way Wenches don't die!

 

[Doorknob22]

Now that 0.7 is out, I want to think a little how I use Quest rewards, Wench in council bonuses and Wench seduction conditions in a way which:
1. Should be tied to the lore/background of relevant characters
2. Bring value to the player

So I made this little table where I wrote on the left columns the "vibe" of the Wench and Fiefdom and on the right the current bonuses/conditions and how I feel about them.
-Green: I'm happy with the bonus, it fits the theme/vibe of the fiefdom/Wench
-Yellow: Meh, weak connection but it's there
-Red: I'm not happy about this but couldn't come with something better.

Looking at the table it's plain to see that:
A. I'm generally unhappy with the rewards and conditions for Sumya and the Hawatian quest. The quest reward is lame (since you can take Hawatia without it), Sumya's council bonus is not related to her character but it somewhat related to her seduction conditions
B. I'm generally unhappy with the seduction conditions. I think it's a good tool for introducing features to the players but the ties to the Wenches leave something to be desired in most cases.

I'm not going to make major changes to the quests or Wenches but I'm open to suggestions on bonuses, rewards and seduction conditions which better fit the background story and provide benefits to the players.

 

[Stil996]

Now that 0.7 is out, I want to think a little how I use Quest rewards, Wench in council bonuses and Wench seduction conditions in a way which:
1. Should be tied to the lore/background of relevant characters
2. Bring value to the player

So I made this little table where I wrote on the left columns the "vibe" of the Wench and Fiefdom and on the right the current bonuses/conditions and how I feel about them.
-Green: I'm happy with the bonus, it fits the theme/vibe of the fiefdom/Wench
-Yellow: Meh, weak connection but it's there
-Red: I'm not happy about this but couldn't come with something better.

Looking at the table it's plain to see that:
A. I'm generally unhappy with the rewards and conditions for Sumya and the Hawatian quest. The quest reward is lame (since you can take Hawatia without it), Sumya's council bonus is not related to her character but it somewhat related to her seduction conditions
B. I'm generally unhappy with the seduction conditions. I think it's a good tool for introducing features to the players but the ties to the Wenches leave something to be desired in most cases.

I'm not going to make major changes to the quests or Wenches but I'm open to suggestions on bonuses, rewards and seduction conditions which better fit the background story and provide benefits to the players.

View attachment 2181883

Nahir
Young girls love Bling, Pretty Flowers, Stinky perfumes, pretty much anything that is exclusive/expensive, maybe hide rare beautiful things in the other kingdoms (they all have markets right), find & acquire to win her heart. I would be nice to revisit your various fuck buddies in these areas too, could play into my suggestion for Sumya's quest too for potential slaves/servants.

Tenlya
Why 4 temples? this is the one where you choose to support the Elves or the (sorry but I forgot what they are called), make the quest relate to their abrasive relationship, whoever you support gets some kind of revenge against the other? it'll cost you good will with whoever you victimise but makes a strong ally in the other.

Sumya
Have you thought about exploring slaves more? play into the Hawatia Slaver aspect, Capturing/Enslaving someone for your castle would likely endear you to her. Maybe keep the slaves you win in the arena? capture a few orc fuck toy/bodyguards? capture characters from the other kingdoms that you have interacted with (I'm sure she'd love one of the Sissies to play with, best of both worlds), or maybe let her use anyone you might have imprisoned in the dungeon.
(Indentured Servants could be an alternate route for those squeamish about slavery)

Alana
I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention of a Navy yet, are you going that direction at all? Alana seems ripe to be our Admiral of the Navy once we build her some ships.

PS
Angilia, being so Pious, maybe extra rewards from her for every temple you build instead of a single "build up my kingdom" quest.. Maybe some major construction to the glory of the gods... a Grand High Temple/Statue or something that goes above and beyond normal places of worship.
Dian, I like the build up the garrison quest it fits with her ethos, but like Angilia, maybe make it a progressive thing, the more garrisons you upgrade the more she likes you... maybe an arena too? or some other venue where warriors can measure themselves against others.

 

[Jaike]

Now that 0.7 is out, I want to think a little how I use Quest rewards, Wench in council bonuses and Wench seduction conditions in a way which:
1. Should be tied to the lore/background of relevant characters
2. Bring value to the player

So I made this little table where I wrote on the left columns the "vibe" of the Wench and Fiefdom and on the right the current bonuses/conditions and how I feel about them.
-Green: I'm happy with the bonus, it fits the theme/vibe of the fiefdom/Wench
-Yellow: Meh, weak connection but it's there
-Red: I'm not happy about this but couldn't come with something better.

Looking at the table it's plain to see that:
A. I'm generally unhappy with the rewards and conditions for Sumya and the Hawatian quest. The quest reward is lame (since you can take Hawatia without it), Sumya's council bonus is not related to her character but it somewhat related to her seduction conditions
B. I'm generally unhappy with the seduction conditions. I think it's a good tool for introducing features to the players but the ties to the Wenches leave something to be desired in most cases.

I'm not going to make major changes to the quests or Wenches but I'm open to suggestions on bonuses, rewards and seduction conditions which better fit the background story and provide benefits to the players.

View attachment 2181883

For Nahir, limiting the seduction condition to Marbia and linking it to the morale bonus yield could make it fit better. Like earn 30 gold in Marbia from morale rolls.

The 4 temples for Teniya feels a bit random, maybe replace temple with a specific elven building from Tinpingia? Like you could call it a grove or something, it doesn't need to have any function outside the seduction quest.

Maybe if the condition for Sumiya is about forcing yields 5 time outside Hawatia, it would feel more appropriate though it kind of goes against her character arc. The quest reward could be more relevant if Hawatian troops are a lot stronger before the quest or it could be a short small military boost from escaped slaves (+5 troops?) for like 10 turns that can go over the troop limit.

 

[Stil996]

I gotta say I'm not a fan of "do something you were going to do anyway" as a seduction quest, those quests should put the player in the position of choosing between spending their resources on strengthening their position (like building the kingdom infrastructure), or seducing their Wenchs, it shouldn't happen in the same sweep, there should be some kind of sacrifice/effort on the players part.

Maybe special building that can only be built for them that represent their special skill sets
something expensive & oppulent.

Angilia
Oryeonguk Cathedral

Nahir
Marbia Gardens

Tenlya
Tinpingia Spires

Sumya
Hawatia Training Pens

Dian
Limtina Champions Arena

Alana
Waikokipa Naval Yard

 

[Deleted member 440241]

I think it would make more sense to have quests or palace upgrades for seduction. Rebuilding Oryeunguk makes sense for Angilia, but obviously won't work for everyone. I don't see why Sumya, or Alana, care about how the Shadow Institute works. Adding Arcana tech to the palace would be an expensive but largely useless (maybe with some minor bonus when defending against raids) way to show you want her to be comfortable. And a quest to help Alana make up with Ilga is exactly the kind of gesture to show you care about her.

On a note unrelated to seduction quests, I have an issue with the army size limit. There aren't enough troops available to station 20-30 in each conquered territory. Constantly shuffling troops around while building infrastructure is a nuisance grind. Especially once the Amazons really start acting against you. It'd be nice if troops stationed at garrisons didn't count towards the main army. Maybe have them reduce gold production in the area to compensate for the resources they need. You could always limit the garrison to 30-40 troops so players can't just keep a copy of their full army in every region. The seemingly random obedience drops forcing me to shift troops when not attacking was the part of the game I disliked most. Or I'm just thoroughly misunderstanding the obedience system.

 

[Stil996]

I think it would make more sense to have quests or palace upgrades for seduction. Rebuilding Oryeunguk makes sense for Angilia, but obviously won't work for everyone. I don't see why Sumya, or Alana, care about how the Shadow Institute works. Adding Arcana tech to the palace would be an expensive but largely useless (maybe with some minor bonus when defending against raids) way to show you want her to be comfortable. And a quest to help Alana make up with Ilga is exactly the kind of gesture to show you care about her.

On a note unrelated to seduction quests, I have an issue with the army size limit. There aren't enough troops available to station 20-30 in each conquered territory. Constantly shuffling troops around while building infrastructure is a nuisance grind. Especially once the Amazons really start acting against you. It'd be nice if troops stationed at garrisons didn't count towards the main army. Maybe have them reduce gold production in the area to compensate for the resources they need. You could always limit the garrison to 30-40 troops so players can't just keep a copy of their full army in every region. The seemingly random obedience drops forcing me to shift troops when not attacking was the part of the game I disliked most. Or I'm just thoroughly misunderstanding the obedience system.

+1, instead of a hard cap, maybe make make a soft cap meaning the army cost nothing to maintain when it is below that mark, but for each soldier above that costs a certain amount of gold/moral per day. to represent the extra bureaucracy & import of resources required to feed/manage excess manpower.

 

[gojira667]

On a note unrelated to seduction quests, I have an issue with the army size limit. There aren't enough troops available to station 20-30 in each conquered territory.

Not to take away from the rest of the complaint, but this is wrong. There are explicitly enough troops to station 20 of them in each territory with an additional 10 troops placed wherever you wish.

The subversion style raids, morale & obedience, are new in v0.7.x. I believe the idea was largely to use the Shadow Institute functions to offset them and as a way to bleed off excess gold.