Views on Netorare

[Trapitalism101]

I just hate how anything that isn't "Sir biggus dickus makes every female in a 100 mile radius his devoted slampig" gets lumped into NTR by angry commenters. Sometimes I just wanna see some fun, freaky scenes beyond just the MC and bimbo# whatever, but the second another character even holds hand with one of the girls, people go into a frothy mad rage. This is especially true of harem games, but in general it seems to be everywhere these days, and it's shame because it stunts possible interesting avenues of exploration and possibility.

 

[Jaike]

But to be triggered by it to the point of going to a thread and screaming about how much that is wrong and trying to remove that from the face of the earth is a bit too much internal rage to be considered a normal response don't you think?

I'd say so, yes. And I'm sure NTR faces more hate in terms of volume than scat, the intensity is probably also a bit up from scat. My point was just that plenty of people hate scat intensely.

I just hate how anything that isn't "Sir biggus dickus makes every female in a 100 mile radius his devoted slampig" gets lumped into NTR by angry commenters. Sometimes I just wanna see some fun, freaky scenes beyond just the MC and bimbo# whatever, but the second another character even holds hand with one of the girls, people go into a frothy mad rage. This is especially true of harem games, but in general it seems to be everywhere these days, and it's shame because it stunts possible interesting avenues of exploration and possibility.

The answer to your troubles is adding the other character to the harem.

 

[Hildegardt]

When someone asks you to recommend them something to read with NTR, Hemingway is not what you will say, despite it being the vastly superior literature. The reason is because NTR is not about cheating, jealousy or whatever. It's about fetishized cheating, jealousy or whatever. The term is not used outside the context of porn except as a meme.

Tropes are tropes for a reason and romance and erotica share quite a few of them, because of the obvious similarities of both genres. But porn VNs get disproportionate outrage for certain common tropes. I don't think people are actually more invested into shitty porn VNs than they are into good books.

Yes, ntr is a fetish thing that's only used in porn. But my point is rather that some people want to use the ntr tag as a content warning to a stifling degree. Stifling in the sense that even the best stories aren't save from getting derailed for some supposed ntr infractions.
And these infractions can just be things like love triangles, multiple sexual partners for female character or mfm threesomes. I've seen pages long heated discussions, whining and demands because of a spitroasting scene. That's because the meme right now is to feel cheated on, whenever there's more than one dick in a game.

 

[karlsberg]

Ntr is becoming more popular so a lot of people just complain about it in general, because more creators making ntr means less choices of porn for them. But I also don't understand the people who jump on everything that has somewhat realistic portrayals of cheating or just multiple couplings in the game. Those scenarios don't have the emotional manipulation of ntr and it's not like cheating is universally immoral either. More often than not it means that the relationship is disfunctional and bound to fail anyway.

 

[Meaning Less]

More often than not it means that the relationship is disfunctional and bound to fail anyway.

Are you implying that having a harem where all girls do your bidding and can't complain if you ever decide to fuck with anyone else is a functional relationship?
Or even incest games where the mc fucks everyone in his family?

It's all a fetish, they don't need to be functional... they are there just to spice things up or add drama to otherwise vanilla stories.

 

[karlsberg]

No I'm implying that cheating and ntr are not the same thing. And the moral or pseudomoral arguments that are used against ntr are not applicable to all cases of cheating.

 

[Meaning Less]

No I'm implying that cheating and ntr are not the same thing. And the moral or pseudomoral arguments that are used against ntr are not applicable to all cases of cheating.

If you think about it, a harem is just a reverse ntr game for every girl, the first girl to fall in love with the mc will have to deal with him banging every other chick after her, the only difference is that some people just care about it when it is directly aimed at their ego.

 

[karlsberg]

Well, yes, obviously. It's only hypocrisy if you're pushing that ntr is bad because cheating is immoral. That being said most of the romances with one guy and multiple girls don't have the "stealing" element, where the ntrman is a sexually predatory manipulator. I'm ignoring Korean webtoons a bit though, because I find most MCs in them unlikable.

 

[Meaning Less]

That being said most of the romances with one guy and multiple girls don't have the "stealing" element, where the ntrman is a sexually predatory manipulator.

To me it really seems like most "ntrman" are just representations of usual MCs, they do whatever they feel like but you play as a non-mc character instead. The ntrman suddenly shows up and the girl is weirdly attached to them no matter how ugly/weird they are, they can take even the most violent or hysterical actions and for some reason it still works to enchant the girl.

So to me it really just seems like the ntr fetish was born of out people that wanted to relate a bit more with different characters and leave the power fantasy aside for a second.
Having a taste out of your own medicine is triggering for some but I would argue it can be healthy, if nothing else at least shows that some compassion goes a long way when you aren't the center of the universe.

 

[karlsberg]

While I've seen some people enjoy ntr as some weird revenge against harem protagonists, most ntr fans (as opposed to people who just shrug it off and ignore anything but the art) i've encountered are either cucks, incels living in their own alpha/beta world or people who enjoy moral corruption - women beaten by the cock etc. Major overlaps ofc.
The idea of compassion for any of the characters involved is usually completely foreign to ntr scenarios. That is in fact the reason why I decided to move away from porn like that.

 

[Meaning Less]

most ntr fans (as opposed to people who just shrug it off and ignore anything but the art) i've encountered are either cucks, incels living in their own alpha/beta world or people who enjoy moral corruption - women beaten by the cock etc. Major overlaps ofc.

The only issue with that statement is that it lacks empirical evidence.

Most people that enjoy ntr seem to be chill and you hardly see them hating in every thread.
But this triggering/hate behavior is in fact the exact behavior incels,homophobes,depressive people have, which is why they tend to discharge that energy into the wrong place, like women, gays or other things in general.

I myself was never an "ntr fan", I always ignored it but at some point after you get tired of the same porn everywhere curiosity got the best of me to check what the fuss is all about and now I can also enjoy it, like probably most people ntr is just one of the many fetishes I enjoy, I doubt that "exclusive fans" of a single fetish even exist.

 

[karlsberg]

I'm talking about my personal experience, having enjoyed ntr for a while (I'm more of a swapping fan and i considered ntr somewhat related for a while) and spending time in their communities. People usually tend to be chill until you press them on something they're uncomfortable with, and they don't get uncomfortable in the echo chambers of their own communities. That includes ntr fans.
You can only get "empirical evidence" from statistics.

 

[Meaning Less]

spending time in their communities.

If I were to guess I would that the issue was probably the "community" factors.
Like incel community, when people get together to circlejerk about the same subject it usually will just amplifies the extreme aspects and filters out normal people even more, so just the extremists are left.
Most people just enjoy what they enjoy, they don't need to join communities in the first place...

 

[karlsberg]

That's certainly possible, some (4 chan) were definitely more extreme than others (animesharing). Doesn't change my conclusions about why they enjoy what they enjoy. I can certainly be overstating my point, but those three groups absolutely are majorly represented. You see that easily just by observing what they think about the characters and how they talk about what specifically they enjoy in ntr.

 

[Trapitalism101]

The answer to your troubles is adding the other character to the harem.

I agree. Especially if they can be turned into a Trap I can hold hands with. Anyway, the problem is that people will still get mad ANY time a character has sex with a girl (who isn't the MC), to the point where harems games WITH the option to add somesausage to the party, get REEEEEE'D at heavily. I personally find vanilla harem really boring, so I like the idea of spicing up the fun and adding tertiary relationships to the mix.

because people are so conditioned to hating all relationanships not involving the MC's knob gettin slobbed, we miss out on more interesting dynamics. What if the Bull/other guy/futa friend banging your girl(s) is super gregarious and you find yourself becoming best friends with a person while also occasionally spit roasting someone? Or a game where a couple competes to have filthy cheaty sex and then tell each other about it because they are both huge perverts? Or a reverse harem where every person you add actually dominates you, but everyone thinks you're Chad Thundercock? Nope. Unless it's the MC screaming "I'M NOT A CUCK" while no one cares that he is collecting STDs like pokemon, people complain that "ew it has unavoidable ntr".

 

[Jeff Steel]

The Sun Also Rises is not porn.

It probably would have had some graphic sex if Hemingway wrote it today.

but also to be fair, in The Sun Also Rises, the main character does not have Ntr because the MC never had Lady Brett - the MC was impotent prior to their meeting at the hospital. And Lady Brett never really stayed with anyone - at the end she is alone with the MC.

 

[Jeff Steel]

When someone asks you to recommend them something to read with NTR, Hemingway is not what you will say, despite it being the vastly superior literature. The reason is because NTR is not about cheating, jealousy or whatever. It's about fetishized cheating, jealousy or whatever. The term is not used outside the context of porn except as a meme.

NTR is not divisive because of bad writing. In fact the cases of NTR with what we would normally consider good writing are few and far between. Most NTR scenarios require the women to make unrealistically stupid decisions and/or lack control over their sexual drive and thus agency. The actual reason for the hate is the fact that a lot of porn consumers are lonely men looking for comfort food and NTR, when enacted from the 'cuck's' point of view, is almost a mockery of that wish. A kind of a bait and switch that crushes their expectations in a rather emotionally cruel way if they have grown attached to the woman. And the switch from an image of purity (even if imagined in the reader's or protagonist's head) to uncontrolled sluttiness is the trademark of NTR.

I was rather underwhelmed by The Sun Also Rises. At the time his style was revolutionary. But by today’s standards that have incorporated the good points of Hemmingway‘s style, it left me unsatisfied. There are a few critics online that agree with me. Not saying his writing is not better than the VNs, but I would disagree on the use of “vastly superior.” Btw, as of January the novel is in the public domain - at least in the US.

 

[Jeff Steel]

1. Most of the games on here, especially the popular ones, are romance novels with added explicit scenes. I don't see how comparing novels to visual novels is supposed to be a flawed comparison.

2. Maybe comparing the literal bottom of the barrel to Hemingway is a little over the top, but the point still stands.

3a. And it sucks imo. A lot of people pride themselves about being into erotic VNs with good stories. But the stories will never be good, if the ntr meta has them in a chokehold.

3b. As a result we've got this weird lopsided puritanism, where incest is mandatory, rape doesn't even get noticed, beastiality and furry stuff is good for a laugh, but swinging, sharing, mmf threesomes, gangbangs and promiscuous women in general are nightmare-inducing kinks that need a content warning.

1. Good point on the romance novel issue. If you take the erotic romance part of the romance novel industry, sex comes quick and often and in graphic ways. I was surprised to find women love that level of graphic writing, but there it is. And the better VNs here are comparable to the mainstream of the romance novels.

2. As I stated above, imo The Sun Also Rises is okay - groundbreaking at the time - but is lacking imo.

3a. My problem is things that are not Ntr get equated with Ntr and then we get left with too many VNs sticking to the straight and narrow.

3b. Exactly right: swinging, sharing, mmf threesomes, etc should all not be conflated with Ntr.

 

[jamdan]

NTR is not divisive because of bad writing. In fact the cases of NTR with what we would normally consider good writing are few and far between. Most NTR scenarios require the women to make unrealistically stupid decisions and/or lack control over their sexual drive and thus agency. The actual reason for the hate is the fact that a lot of porn consumers are lonely men looking for comfort food and NTR, when enacted from the 'cuck's' point of view, is almost a mockery of that wish. A kind of a bait and switch that crushes their expectations in a rather emotionally cruel way if they have grown attached to the woman. And the switch from an image of purity (even if imagined in the reader's or protagonist's head) to uncontrolled sluttiness is the trademark of NTR.

You can say the same about most games on here. How many incest games have you played where the mom suddenly starts lusting after her sons dick?

Of the thousands of games on here. You can probably list 100 that have characters that are generally sensible, most of the time at least.

The issue is, and this goes for any fetish genre, is that the writers can't think of a plausible scenario or story to go along with the fetish. They just want the fetish. So they take shortcuts to get there.

The overly lusty mom who for no reason wants her sons dick because the father vanished into thin air but she doesn't want to date another man for whatever reason despite being a supermodel. The LI in the NTR game that takes one look at another guys dick, who is almost always black, and can't help herself. The harem game where MC spends 90% of the game cheating on them all only for them to forgive him because he's so amazing.

Honestly, it's actually pretty depressing when you think about it.

 

[desmosome]

You guys are misinterpreting karlsberg's POV. There are 2 ways we can think about NTR in f95zone. 1 is the idea that any other dick existing is "NTR." They seem to be in agreement that this broad definition and resultant hysteria is an understandable, but a short sighted take. The other "NTR" is actual NTR designed specifically for the purposes of eliciting jealousy. They are saying that this true type of NTR is unrealistic and fetishized in almost all cases, something I agree with completely.

A lot of back and fourth in the last few pages, but I think you guys were arguing about 2 different concepts of "NTR."