Views on Netorare

[Jeff Steel]

I’m on the side of everyone who has said the threat of NTR can make a story more interesting - and not just playing a VN where everything is on easy mode.

There are thousands of movies out there with love triangles where the threat of losing the girl to another man is a key point of the movie.

And then there are classic films in which NTR is not a threat, but is the actual outcome.

5 Film Stories where the MC lost out to someone the LI found more attractive:
Camelot
Forgetting Sarah Marshall
Phantom of the Opera
Luke Skywalker - Leia - Han Solo
500 Days of Summer

4 Film Stories where the MC lost the LI due to “life got in the way” issues:
Casablanca
Castaway
Harry Potter and Hermione and Ron
La La Land

While I am not a fan of an NTR ending (though I enjoyed all the films above), and I understand the feeling you get from playing an immersive VN and a sad NTR ending - I do feel it is silly to eschew an NTR threat subplot since that is the essence of every love triangle plot.

Perhaps f95 needs a “love triangle” tag for NTR threat stories to help us get off the NTR witch hunt.

 

[Hagatagar]

There are thousands of movies out there with love triangles where the threat of losing the girl to another man is a key point of the movie.

And then there are classic films in which NTR is not a threat, but is the actual outcome.

This is very true, however, almost all movies are told from the third perspective, unlike most games which POV narration makes the player much more invested.
In addition, the sexual element in porn games make them even more intimate.
That's why NTR in (POV) games will hit harder then a movie.

Perhaps f95 needs a “love triangle” tag for NTR threat stories to help us get off the NTR witch hunt.

Sadly, that probably won't help.
Even if F95 uses the tag "love triangle" only as a plot element where no real NTR will happen, people will still complain and discuss it, because many love triangles contain a NTRish aspect.

And no matter how one tries to explain this site's definition of a tag, no matter how one tries to come up with resolutions, there will always be people who complain in a very vocal way, because their understanding of the tags may differ.

 

[Avaron1974]

5 Film Stories where the MC lost out to someone the LI found more attractive:
Luke Skywalker - Leia - Han Solo


4 Film Stories where the MC lost the LI due to “life got in the way” issues:
Harry Potter and Hermione and Ron

You were right about some but these ... not so much.

Luke and Leia are related. They confused sibling love for attraction.

Ron was always set up for Hermione, Harry was set up for Ginny. At the end of the books, Ron and Hermione and married with kids as are Harry and Ginny. They got the LI's at the end.

 

[greenlittleman]

Perhaps f95 needs a “love triangle” tag for NTR threat stories to help us get off the NTR witch hunt.

NTR is almost never a love triangle, dude. It's usually someone raping or blackmailing a girl while giving her awesome sex and making her into a cock-obsessed slut. While her bf/lover/a boy who has a crush on her, thinks that she's a pure innocent little girl. First and foremost netorare is a fetish, a form of emotional masochism. We are talking about porn here, not plot-focused stories. There is ntr in some serious VNs like Yu-No or Muv Luv Alternative (kind of), barely anyone complains about ntr in them.

Luke and Leia are related. They confused sibling love for attraction.

No, they haven't confused anything, lol. There can't be sibling love if you don't know that someone's your sibling. There's no biological mechanism for recognizing your siblings in humans. Otherwise, incest wouldn't be so common throughout our history. On the contrary, you can easily fall in love and want to fuck your sister if you meet her without knowing that you're related. Also, there's sister and mother ntr among other things if you look at Japanese porn. So yeah, in Star Wars Luke definitely had a crush on Leia and wanted to bang her.

 

[Jeff Steel]

NTR is almost never a love triangle, dude.

But that’s my point. Put a love triangle into a VN and a good number of people still cry out “ntr.” Perhaps an added tag to F95 would help.

 

[ChaosOpen]

But that’s my point. Put a love triangle into a VN and a good number of people still cry out “ntr.” Perhaps an added tag to F95 would help.

While it is true that many will cry NTR if you include so much as the "best friend comic relief character" I think that is more the result of people not understanding what separates NTR from cheating. There is a reason why despite having an ntr tag F95 still retains a "cheating" tag. NTR isn't so much about cheating as it is about fetishizing failure. Generally, if the game consistently rewards the player with progress in the plot and H-scenes when they or the protagonists makes a bad decision then the game is most likely NTR. For some that means no choices or simply all bad choices where it locks you into an NTR route and there is no way to escape it(any altier sakura game). For others it is "avoidable" but there are no new h-scenes for the "correct" choices so the game down the non-NTR route is mostly devoid of anything beyond the most vanilla sex scenes with the girl clearly faking her orgasm whereas the NTR routes feature a constant influx of increasingly kinky sex scenes.(Fox Girls Never Play Dirty)

 

[Jeff Steel]

Two idea updates:

in the romance novel genre there is strong Pressure from female fans to:
- have the MC only have sex with the Protagonist; and
- have the story end HEA (happily ever after) or HFN (happily for now).

The big difference between Romance Novels and Adult VNs Geared Towards Males is how many sex partners the MC has - VNs like bunches.

interesting to see the similarities though

— —

Second Issue, Hemingway’s novel ”The Sun Also Rises” just entered into the public domain. The novel has the MC being ntr’d. Another example of great literature that has NTR.

 

[Ambir]

For me, it's simple:
Male protagonist: I want him to be exclusive with his partners, NTR is a dealbreaker.
Female protagonist: I want her to fuck everything that moves. Preferably, I don't want too much story, only sex.

Arguably, if I played a female protagonist game was designed to have deep relationships and an engaging story, NTR would probably be a dealbreaker for me, however I usually pick games where it's clear that you'll just get tons of sex and no story, like "that lewd erotic knight that never had sex wants to journey through the underworld and gets raped by every single creatures down there".

As for how I deal with games that have NTR, it's simple. If a game is tagged NTR, I check if it's optionnal. If it isn't or if it's not mentionned, I skip.
Arguably, I'm more lenient toward NTR than toward other things I dislike, such as scat. If your game as the scat tag, I won't even think about playing it.

 

[karlsberg]

Second Issue, Hemingway’s novel ”The Sun Also Rises” just entered into the public domain. The novel has the MC being ntr’d. Another example of great literature that has NTR.

The Sun Also Rises is not porn.

 

[MLBnoob]

Two idea updates:

in the romance novel genre there is strong Pressure from female fans to:
- have the MC only have sex with the Protagonist; and
- have the story end HEA (happily ever after) or HFN (happily for now).

The big difference between Romance Novels and Adult VNs Geared Towards Males is how many sex partners the MC has - VNs like bunches.

interesting to see the similarities though

— —

Second Issue, Hemingway’s novel ”The Sun Also Rises” just entered into the public domain. The novel has the MC being ntr’d. Another example of great literature that has NTR.

You're kinda short minded with the "love triangle" idea, AVNs can make a ripple with their influence. Your idea would just antagonize MC best friends or friends in general. Altered Destiny had a lesbian (for now) female best friend who slept with the MC's younger past-self mom, it was a travel in the past plot point, everyone in the community shit on that female lesbian best friend the reaction made the dev delete that scene. But the damage was already done, the female best friend is an integral part in the story but everyone just don't want anything to do with her. Along with some other VNs there is a rise on hate against lesbian NTR which was absent when I joined this site and playing AVNs.


Also don't bring novels into this, thats the same as comparing virtual piracy with IRL theft its a very flawed comparison.

 

[Hildegardt]

Also don't bring novels into this, thats the same as comparing virtual piracy with IRL theft its a very flawed comparison.

Most of the games on here, especially the popular ones, are romance novels with added explicit scenes. I don't see how comparing novels to visual novels is supposed to be a flawed comparison. Maybe comparing the literal bottom of the barrel to Hemingway is a little over the top, but the point still stands. There are certain romance genre tropes that are suddenly divisive, when you add explicit scenes.

Nobody gets personally offended by Zeus transforming into a bull to steal some wifes. But I have seen outrage, because of a spitroasting scene some kid came up with in his free time. Despite the shittiest writing people can apparently immerse themselves so much that they get their feelings hurt, whenever there's a threesome with the wrong constellation. I'm not saying that all VNs here are shit, but none of them are good either, if you compare them to actual literature.
But I also don't think that ntr would be less divisive, if the writing was generally better. I think you could copy a classic piece of literature with a love triangle word for word, add some grainy Daz renders with copy/paste'd poses and some people would rage about it and spam facepalms. And that's weird.

Here's what I think is going on: Ntr is literally a meme on this forum.
I've seen it quite a few times now. New people coming in and getting confused that they're supposed to feel ashamed about their kinks on a forum that's filled to the brim with incest games. "Like, wtf kind of weeb shit is an ntr supposed to be? Who could've known that gangbangs are the worst kind of content I ever fapped to. Wasn't everybody else as weirded out as me about the prevalance of step-sis porn on Pornhub?"
But they're only confused, because they didn't get the meme, yet. They start to get it after reading a few posts from the thousands of pages of heated discussion about ntr. And these countless heated discussions made ntr evolve into a meme. There's so much to it now that it's difficult to keep up with it. But if you know about it, you're part of the in-group. There are standard reactions, phrases and arguments that go with it any time it's mentioned, so much so that it almost seems coordinated. Some devs gotta feel like schoolyard bullies with the way they make people hit themselves, when the facepalm squad arrives.

And it sucks imo. A lot of people pride themselves about being into erotic VNs with good stories. But the stories will never be good, if the ntr meta has them in a chokehold. Every character being a shade of submissive anime waifu will never be good writing, even though it's probably a widespread fantasy. You wouldn't even find this shit at the literature section of a gas station.
Not every erotic VN has to be good and the numbers on Patreon are proof enough of this fact. But even the passion projects are getting derailed by discussions and demands. That's because ntr is a meme now and people started hitting their foreheads reflexively. Like a small child associating every four-legged animal with dogs, every penis above one gets associated with ntr and triggers this reflex.
As a result we've got this weird lopsided puritanism, where incest is mandatory, rape doesn't even get noticed, beastiality and furry stuff is good for a laugh, but swinging, sharing, mmf threesomes, gangbangs and promiscuous women in general are nightmare-inducing kinks that need a content warning.

 

[DiviDreamer]

Let me tell you the story how i met ntr first time
I was playing Power vacuum game and when i get first ntr scene
i deleted the game and swear to myself never play it again.

 

[karlsberg]

Most of the games on here, especially the popular ones, are romance novels with added explicit scenes. I don't see how comparing novels to visual novels is supposed to be a flawed comparison. Maybe comparing the literal bottom of the barrel to Hemingway is a little over the top, but the point still stands. There are certain romance genre tropes that are suddenly divisive, when you add explicit scenes.

When someone asks you to recommend them something to read with NTR, Hemingway is not what you will say, despite it being the vastly superior literature. The reason is because NTR is not about cheating, jealousy or whatever. It's about fetishized cheating, jealousy or whatever. The term is not used outside the context of porn except as a meme.

NTR is not divisive because of bad writing. In fact the cases of NTR with what we would normally consider good writing are few and far between. Most NTR scenarios require the women to make unrealistically stupid decisions and/or lack control over their sexual drive and thus agency. The actual reason for the hate is the fact that a lot of porn consumers are lonely men looking for comfort food and NTR, when enacted from the 'cuck's' point of view, is almost a mockery of that wish. A kind of a bait and switch that crushes their expectations in a rather emotionally cruel way if they have grown attached to the woman. And the switch from an image of purity (even if imagined in the reader's or protagonist's head) to uncontrolled sluttiness is the trademark of NTR.

 

[Meaning Less]

The actual reason for the hate is the fact that a lot of porn consumers are lonely men looking for comfort food and NTR, when enacted from the 'cuck's' point of view, is almost a mockery of that wish.

Let me make it even simpler, these same lonely/insecure guys usually love to self insert into unrealistic scenarios (huge dick, harem, powerful) but the moment these guys stumble upon an MC that actually is powerless like them they get crushed by reality. Which explains the hatred.

That's most likely what I've extrapolated so far by trying to read arguments of people that deeply hate it, normal people just ignore it or find it funny, but for some people it hits too close to home.

 

[karlsberg]

I'm not sure what your definition of normal is here. 'Normal' people usually aren't into ntr either, the whole genre is too sociopathic or masochistic depending on where you stand. I guess it's a normal response in the sense that humor or dismissal are more successful defensive mechanisms than anger in this case.

 

[Meaning Less]

I guess it's a normal response in the sense that humor or dismissal are more successful defensive mechanisms than anger in this case.

Exactly, I'm not into scat but I don't get triggered by seeing a random scat scene in game, I just overlook it, things that trigger people are usually signaling something deeper.

 

[karlsberg]

There's no reason for scat to trigger someone. It's not a fetish that's supposed to manipulate with your psyche unlike ntr.

 

[Jaike]

I think you two underestimate how much some people hate scat and, yes, some of them seem to be triggered by obviously fake drawn or rendered scat.

 

[karlsberg]

I mean there might be some cultural context for some people I guess. Most people just find it disgusting , while hatred of ntr tends to have deeper emotional and moral undertones.

 

[Meaning Less]

Some of them seem to be triggered by obviously fake drawn or rendered scat.

Exactly, the question is always why? people shit everyday (usually) so we are used to seeing it, most people know how to ignore it and just don't fetishise about it.
But when some people see it in a sexual context they get uncomfortable, now why? if you don't like it you will just find it disgusting in general and avoid it, or find it funny because you don't understand why anyone else would be into it.

But to be triggered by it to the point of going to a thread and screaming about how much that is wrong and trying to remove that from the face of the earth is a bit too much internal rage to be considered a normal response don't you think?

Homophobia is the same, what's wrong with gay people having sex? But the people that are triggered by it usually are just afraid of liking it or have other deep unresolved issues.