Ren'Py Abandoned Vis [v2.0] [Mad King Games]

[Maviarab]

From my personal observation the people who hate sandboxes are loud

Weighted rating literally has a sandbox in the top 5 and if you sort by total likes sandboxes make up 3 of the top 5 games on this site and plenty of sandboxes don't even have money mechanics. You're kind of adding to my point of it being a loud minority who hates sandboxes

Not really there's not games like desert stalker is how the vast majority of games tagged as sandbox work. Sandbox does not mean it includes elements you dislike or some sort of grind or gathering mechanic. Sandbox means the game is based around free roam with content divided up instead of a linear storyline. Compared to games like Being a Dik which is all Vn but has certain parts that are freeroam but doesn't include any sort of player freedom with progression of the story

That's exactly how the vast majority of sandboxes work. Most of them do not have any sort of grinding mechic or gather mechanic. The majorty of the sandboxes are sand boxes because the progression is non linear and the player has the freedom to persue different routes and content in any order. Like I said Sandbox does not mean "this game includes some sort of grind mechanic" it just means you can do whatever you want in any order. As opposed to a Visual novel which is literally a novel, just one where the player is able to make choices that effects the plot in some way.


The definition of sandbox you use is not the actual definition of the genre or what defines the qualifications for the tag on this forum

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Not really I just think it's funny that you think posting a meme means your definition is suddenly the correct one instead of the definition the site actually uses which just means non linear free roam games.

 

[blurrypop]

What's funny is that he said, people aren't interested in medieval games anymore and he's moving on to creating a game in modern setting, that along with VIS was expensive to make because of the setting. He made highway to hell and it didn't increased his patreon numbers. As somebody pointed out, Imperial Chronicles proved it doesn't matter whether it is a medieval fantasy, Sci-fi or any other setting. As long as the game is good and people trust dev, high likely they will succeed.

 

[storm1105]

And this some how changes the definition or the fact the top games in likes are all sandboxes?

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

Who. The. Hell. Cares? Enough with the sandbox numbers in top games, already. That is not even remotely on-topic for this thread. Holy shit....

 

[Gunizz]

Hey all,

So, I keep reading the post on my decision regarding game/games. As I said before, yes I made mistakes and I am accounted for. Someone said that my ego went up as point, at think at some point this is true. This experience help me realize where I did wrong and it helped me become a better person and even if I was well organized in terms of managing resource, managing task and overseeing a small project which for me was a first thing, I wasn't that good at realizing that there was a bottle neck. And at some point, I saw it.

I was on this forum for a a bit, I think from 2017 or so, I can't remember. But what I remember when I launched the game was that every feedback was coherent, even if it was positive or negative. People would break a few minutes from their time and they would simple leave a review to help the dev. I think that after some time, other people joined the forum or other generations that I wasn't part of but things went south in a strange way.

At some point, as I said, I was sleeping around five hours at top at night, putting a lot of hours in the game, renders and trying to make things better, and the reviews and comments were simply mocking all the effort I did. Not because they were negative, not at all, but they would focus so much on my past mistakes that they didn't want to see the present.

Imagine going to an office, going on a professional path, pushing further and further to gain performance, some colleagues say its not the right way, but you continue and at some point the feedback is good. You push further and further to maintain the narrative and the positive feedback and then the burnout came. You feel it but you can't stop, because stopping means loosing support. Every break you take means that you loose support gain through months of hard work. This can't happen. And you push and push until you finally start to crack, and with every fail, you will be reminded the fact that you will leave the company. No matter what you do, this is the outcome. The big exit is coming and this went on for a year or more.

Now, I understand that no one has no obligation towards me but I feel like at some point, there was room for understanding.

Why I deleted my accounts. First of all, for not giving into remorse's and turning back. I knew that if I had everything in place I would come back and confront with the same meltdown, same backlash, same everything. Also, one thing that I learned from here is that no matter how hard you try to make things right, some or most (I don't know) will always see you for the mistakes you made and they will always tag you with your failures rather than anything else. So I think that is a reason why many devs have rebranded, or why they ditched development as a whole.

If there is no room for understanding, there is room for adaptability.

Well, in this forum there are some people that have an aggressive and impolite behaviour towards the developers, that's not about you so don't be too much concerned. They aren't able to give feedback in a positive and calm way. But that's what you find in almost any social media and I think this forum, being a porn community, is actually not that bad overall. The problem with many users is that they are unable to understand that a VN cannot fit everybody. Some are not capable to give a reasoned or rational feedback, so you can avoid some that just have not a clear understanding of what they've played.

I hope you continue this one if you have time, I played it once, at the early stages and I found it was interesting.

 

[AbdelAdrian]

Hey all,

So, I keep reading the post on my decision regarding game/games. As I said before, yes I made mistakes and I am accounted for. Someone said that my ego went up as point, at think at some point this is true. This experience help me realize where I did wrong and it helped me become a better person and even if I was well organized in terms of managing resource, managing task and overseeing a small project which for me was a first thing, I wasn't that good at realizing that there was a bottle neck. And at some point, I saw it.

I was on this forum for a a bit, I think from 2017 or so, I can't remember. But what I remember when I launched the game was that every feedback was coherent, even if it was positive or negative. People would break a few minutes from their time and they would simple leave a review to help the dev. I think that after some time, other people joined the forum or other generations that I wasn't part of but things went south in a strange way.

At some point, as I said, I was sleeping around five hours at top at night, putting a lot of hours in the game, renders and trying to make things better, and the reviews and comments were simply mocking all the effort I did. Not because they were negative, not at all, but they would focus so much on my past mistakes that they didn't want to see the present.

Imagine going to an office, going on a professional path, pushing further and further to gain performance, some colleagues say its not the right way, but you continue and at some point the feedback is good. You push further and further to maintain the narrative and the positive feedback and then the burnout came. You feel it but you can't stop, because stopping means loosing support. Every break you take means that you loose support gain through months of hard work. This can't happen. And you push and push until you finally start to crack, and with every fail, you will be reminded the fact that you will leave the company. No matter what you do, this is the outcome. The big exit is coming and this went on for a year or more.

Now, I understand that no one has no obligation towards me but I feel like at some point, there was room for understanding.

Why I deleted my accounts. First of all, for not giving into remorse's and turning back. I knew that if I had everything in place I would come back and confront with the same meltdown, same backlash, same everything. Also, one thing that I learned from here is that no matter how hard you try to make things right, some or most (I don't know) will always see you for the mistakes you made and they will always tag you with your failures rather than anything else. So I think that is a reason why many devs have rebranded, or why they ditched development as a whole.

If there is no room for understanding, there is room for adaptability.

I think you should do your thing. You explained your reasons once and that's enough.
People agree with it or not, it's their business. The results of your work will convince people... or not.
That's how this business is. Personally... I still play VIS from time to time.
Many of the seduction scenes are still top-class to this day.


The old proverb says... "the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on"
Do what you have to do, we'll wait for the results. Good luck.

 

[JJJ84]

Why I deleted my accounts. First of all, for not giving into remorse's and turning back. I knew that if I had everything in place I would come back and confront with the same meltdown, same backlash, same everything. Also, one thing that I learned from here is that no matter how hard you try to make things right, some or most (I don't know) will always see you for the mistakes you made and they will always tag you with your failures rather than anything else. So I think that is a reason why many devs have rebranded, or why they ditched development as a whole.

No offense, but I strongly disagree with that train of thought and reasoning you're presenting.

Why? Well, being under scrutiny, being unfairly judged or treated, complained at, or all sorts of stuff? That's part of life and something everyone experiences at one point, not just a developer.

To cite a real life example, I'm a service business owner and have numerous customers coming to my shop every day.
Generally a lot of customers are good folks. But there are also customers who can be quite a handful and even stressful.
Does that mean I should give up & close down my shop?
No.
At times, it feels like it's literally days where things really don't go my way, but I deal with it, and move past it.

Dealing with hardships and getting past it makes one grow as a character.
And I'm sorry to say this, but me saying this to you bluntly (and yes, this will be a hard pill to swallow)?

You gave up. Or at the very least, made everyone think you gave up for many months (dunno the exact time period tbh) by closing every account while cutting everybody off.
Just because you felt things got difficult for you.

Yes, people being online without having to actually face the other person may say harsher (and even unfair things) things, but can you really blame people for thinking that way after how you handled things?
As well as that taint always going around with you (with people who have known your work long enough) thinking "this dev gave up, shut himself out for months when he found things got tough for him. So what's to stop him from doing that once again next time he encounters another backlash?"
(and yes, it's not just f95zone which harsh words are said, steam has its share too)

Your biggest mistake wasn't even the sandbox (even though I think that itself was a bad move tbh).
It was deleting all the accounts, then up and leaving, instead of managing through it.
At that moment, almost all the trust you've established with people who have been with you from days of Vis came crumbling down like a sandcastle.

And I'm sorry if this isn't what you wanna hear (but as I said in beginning, no offense to you, I'm merely saying it as how I, and many others see it, without sugarcoating anything), but it really needed to be said.

 

[Ayhsel]

Hey all,

So, I keep reading the post on my decision regarding game/games. As I said before, yes I made mistakes and I am accounted for. Someone said that my ego went up as point, at think at some point this is true. This experience help me realize where I did wrong and it helped me become a better person and even if I was well organized in terms of managing resource, managing task and overseeing a small project which for me was a first thing, I wasn't that good at realizing that there was a bottle neck. And at some point, I saw it.

I was on this forum for a a bit, I think from 2017 or so, I can't remember. But what I remember when I launched the game was that every feedback was coherent, even if it was positive or negative. People would break a few minutes from their time and they would simple leave a review to help the dev. I think that after some time, other people joined the forum or other generations that I wasn't part of but things went south in a strange way.

At some point, as I said, I was sleeping around five hours at top at night, putting a lot of hours in the game, renders and trying to make things better, and the reviews and comments were simply mocking all the effort I did. Not because they were negative, not at all, but they would focus so much on my past mistakes that they didn't want to see the present.

Imagine going to an office, going on a professional path, pushing further and further to gain performance, some colleagues say its not the right way, but you continue and at some point the feedback is good. You push further and further to maintain the narrative and the positive feedback and then the burnout came. You feel it but you can't stop, because stopping means loosing support. Every break you take means that you loose support gain through months of hard work. This can't happen. And you push and push until you finally start to crack, and with every fail, you will be reminded the fact that you will leave the company. No matter what you do, this is the outcome. The big exit is coming and this went on for a year or more.

Now, I understand that no one has no obligation towards me but I feel like at some point, there was room for understanding.

Why I deleted my accounts. First of all, for not giving into remorse's and turning back. I knew that if I had everything in place I would come back and confront with the same meltdown, same backlash, same everything. Also, one thing that I learned from here is that no matter how hard you try to make things right, some or most (I don't know) will always see you for the mistakes you made and they will always tag you with your failures rather than anything else. So I think that is a reason why many devs have rebranded, or why they ditched development as a whole.

If there is no room for understanding, there is room for adaptability.

If I may add to what JJJ84 said.. take it if you want or leave it if you don't.

First, I stand behind JJJ84 . There is an asymmetrical reality to reputation: good reputation takes a lot of time to build, bad reputation can take a single event. The way you approached things has left bad reputation. You can turn things around, but it will take time for people to trust again.

Second, first part that I want to add. I do think the sandbox was a terrible idea. Those are king of things that are too niche and usually to complicated. Moreover, the audience you had amassed was audience before you introduced the sandbox, therefore, audience that was, on the very least, not asking for it, otherwise they would not have followed the game in the first place. And many, like myself to give an example, were simply opposed to it. I would leave such complex and water dividing feature for a future project once your GOOD reputation is already established.

Third, another thing overall that I think laid at the problem. Vis had great characters (that I remember) but it didn't seem to have had a clear idea of where it was going. I remember super interesting plots suddenly to come back to nothing and back to the castle doing more of everything. Maybe you did have an idea of where it was going, but it never seem that way to me. Trying to give advice to an actual developer without really developing is like my going to an actual painter and tell them how to paint (I can't draw shit even if my life depended on it). But I do think that having a clear path structure before you start moving with the game would be a huge benefit. A plan. 1st episode these events, with this foreshadows. 2nd episode, these events, some new, some following the previous event, some picking up on the foreshadows, and so on and so forth. Vis always seemed to lack in this structure. A lot of interesting characters and individually interested events, but no clear plotline.


I do wish you lots of success if you decided to come back.

 

[JJJ84]

If I may add to what JJJ84 said.. take it if you want or leave it if you don't.

First, I stand behind JJJ84 . There is an asymmetrical reality to reputation: good reputation takes a lot of time to build, bad reputation can take a single event. The way you approached things has left bad reputation. You can turn things around, but it will take time for people to trust again.

Second, first part that I want to add. I do think the sandbox was a terrible idea. Those are king of things that are too niche and usually to complicated. Moreover, the audience you had amassed was audience before you introduced the sandbox, therefore, audience that was, on the very least, not asking for it, otherwise they would not have followed the game in the first place. And many, like myself to give an example, were simply opposed to it. I would leave such complex and water dividing feature for a future project once your GOOD reputation is already established.

Third, another thing overall that I think laid at the problem. Vis had great characters (that I remember) but it didn't seem to have had a clear idea of where it was going. I remember super interesting plots suddenly to come back to nothing and back to the castle doing more of everything. Maybe you did have an idea of where it was going, but it never seem that way to me. Trying to give advice to an actual developer without really developing is like my going to an actual painter and tell them how to paint (I can't draw shit even if my life depended on it). But I do think that having a clear path structure before you start moving with the game would be a huge benefit. A plan. 1st episode these events, with this foreshadows. 2nd episode, these events, some new, some following the previous event, some picking up on the foreshadows, and so on and so forth. Vis always seemed to lack in this structure. A lot of interesting characters and individually interested events, but no clear plotline.


I do wish you lots of success if you decided to come back.

Yeah, you pulled the words right out of my mouth (and I totally agree with the lack of structure).
To add slightly to what you said regarding sandbox, if MadKing reeeeeeally wanted to do sandbox, he should have done it AFTER Vis's Visual Novel version was 100% complete.
That way, he could have continuously build up that trust and reputation he had been amounting to till the game's conclusion, with the players experiencing the game all in the visual novel mode.

That mode was what built up the foundation of hype for Vis, all the way from the beginning.
So MadKing deciding to add in the extra mode (or a remake, as Devs tend to do nowadays) after VN mode is done wouldn't have resulted in any harm to reputation.
This way, people who preferred VN mode (most people lol) wouldn't have lost out on anything, and folks who were interested in sandbox would have been able to experience it after the VN version of Vis was complete.
Basically would have been a Win Win scenario.

But instead, Sandbox got rushed-introduced out of the blue so deep into the game's VN version (where it shouldn't have been); resulting in split of fanbase's reactions, & from there things continued to get worse and worse (worst obviously being MadKing cutting contact and everyone off for many months), and.... here we are.

 

[Ayhsel]

Yeah, you pulled the words right out of my mouth (and I totally agree with the lack of structure).
To add slightly to what you said regarding sandbox, if MadKing reeeeeeally wanted to do sandbox, he should have done it AFTER Vis's Visual Novel version was 100% complete.
That way, he could have continuously build up that trust and reputation he had been amounting to till the game's conclusion, with the players experiencing the game all in the visual novel mode.

That mode was what built up the foundation of hype for Vis, all the way from the beginning.
So MadKing deciding to add in the extra mode (or a remake, as Devs tend to do nowadays) after VN mode is done wouldn't have resulted in any harm to reputation.
This way, people who preferred VN mode (most people lol) wouldn't have lost out on anything, and folks who were interested in sandbox would have been able to experience it after the VN version of Vis was complete.
Basically would have been a Win Win scenario.

But instead, Sandbox got rushed-introduced out of the blue so deep into the game's VN version (where it shouldn't have been); resulting in split of fanbase's reactions, & from there things continued to get worse and worse (worst obviously being MadKing cutting contact and everyone off for many months), and.... here we are.

Totally agree. It was when sandbox was introduced that I pushed it down my kist of priorities.

 

[Ghost_of_MK]

Yes I admit, at some point Vis development occurred in some difficult years in my life and I think that the story reflected that. Overall I am positive. I think I needed this break to become more mature and be able to deliver something good.

 

[JJJ84]

Yes I admit, at some point Vis development occurred in some difficult years in my life and I think that the story reflected that. Overall I am positive. I think I needed this break to become more mature and be able to deliver something good.

Nothing is wrong with taking a break.
In the end, we're all human and I have seen some devs take time off from development due to IRL issues (whether it's family sickness, or dev's own mental health issues or any others) or stress.

Having said that, none of those devs having IRL difficulties deleted their accounts clean out of existence like you did.

Pretty much all of them left a simple post & message in their Patreon & Discord saying "Guys, I am having some issues and need to take a break."
After their break their resumed their development activities on same accounts, coming back stronger.

Solely that one sentence from you would have been sufficient without deleting any of the accounts (and had you done that approach, your reputation would have been intact) and people would have been understanding.
But you went about it in worst way possible instead (gives me the impression you went about it in extremity with scorched earth lol).

Oh well...... you've already spilt your milk, so there's nothing that can be done about it anymore.
Given you've squandered your reputation in this one move (as Ayhsel explained above), it's gonna take a long time for you to rebuild all that lost trust back up (and honestly, it's sad cause I think all this could have been avoided had you just taken time to think things over instead of deleting everything, which from my pov I feel was a very impulsive decision from your end I'm ngl).

 

[Ghost_of_MK]

Nothing is wrong with taking a break.
In the end, we're all human and I have seen some devs take time off from development due to IRL issues (whether it's family sickness, or dev's own mental health issues or any others) or stress.

Having said that, none of those devs having IRL difficulties deleted their accounts clean out of existence like you did.

Pretty much all of them left a simple post & message in their Patreon & Discord saying "Guys, I am having some issues and need to take a break."
After their break their resumed their development activities on same accounts, coming back stronger.

Solely that one sentence from you would have been sufficient without deleting any of the accounts (and had you done that approach, your reputation would have been intact) and people would have been understanding.
But you went about it in worst way possible instead (gives me the impression you went about it in extremity with scorched earth lol).

Oh well...... you've already spilt your milk, so there's nothing that can be done about it anymore.
Given you've squandered your reputation in this one move (as Ayhsel explained above), it's gonna take a long time for you to rebuild all that lost trust back up (and honestly, it's sad cause I think all this could have been avoided had you just taken time to think things over instead of deleting everything, which from my pov I feel was a very impulsive decision from your end I'm ngl).

There is a difference. We all expect for someone to follow a certain path when dealing with a problem or with a certain situation. There is no standardization on how a person deals with burnouts or with conflicts and so on. Maybe those devs weren't in my shoes... Sometimes there are too many variables in the story for us to just hardcode a pattern and a solution.

 

[JokerOfTorment]

This is just how I felt and stuff and what made me stop playing and all is the part where the Mc took over and the Mc went from treating his mom nice and stuff to randomly treating her badly and wanting to jail her and share her with other guys and not into that type content even if optional then I found out later the game had ntr later due to the two female companions who are sort of Mc lovers in a way who was at the start of the game but I guess I enjoyed the game/story in a way before the Mc took over after that I guess is when things went downhill with the sandbox and stuff.

 

[Ebonheart (FR)]

Nothing is wrong with taking a break.
In the end, we're all human and I have seen some devs take time off from development due to IRL issues (whether it's family sickness, or dev's own mental health issues or any others) or stress.

Having said that, none of those devs having IRL difficulties deleted their accounts clean out of existence like you did.

Pretty much all of them left a simple post & message in their Patreon & Discord saying "Guys, I am having some issues and need to take a break."
After their break their resumed their development activities on same accounts, coming back stronger.

Solely that one sentence from you would have been sufficient without deleting any of the accounts (and had you done that approach, your reputation would have been intact) and people would have been understanding.
But you went about it in worst way possible instead (gives me the impression you went about it in extremity with scorched earth lol).

Oh well...... you've already spilt your milk, so there's nothing that can be done about it anymore.
Given you've squandered your reputation in this one move (as Ayhsel explained above), it's gonna take a long time for you to rebuild all that lost trust back up (and honestly, it's sad cause I think all this could have been avoided had you just taken time to think things over instead of deleting everything, which from my pov I feel was a very impulsive decision from your end I'm ngl).

I understand your point, but the damage is already done. I can also see why the developer wanted to start fresh by distancing himself from a heavily tarnished image.

That said, even if it’s not so common, developers facing difficulties, whether personal or related to their games, sometimes delete all their accounts suddenly and without warning. It’s unrealistic to apply a single rule to everyone since behaviors, values, and mindsets differ widely.

Unlike you, I doubt his reputation would have survived if he had kept his accounts open, even after publicly apologizing and trying to make amends. I’ve seen several devs hang on, only to give up, rush their game’s ending, or walk away. People don’t forget easily, and forgiveness is rare.

Some time ago, I was in contact with a developer overwhelmed by harsh and constant criticism, some of it very toxic and bordering on harassment. In the end, he rushed his game’s conclusion, deleted all his accounts, and left the adult game scene entirely. The mental pressure was too much despite his efforts to hold on. His case shows that your view isn’t absolute.

Rebuilding a seriously damaged reputation and regaining public trust is very difficult. Some devs fail because a significant part of their audience, full of resentment, simply won’t forgive. A lot of new devs avoid engaging on F95 because of its bad reputation, something often brought up on their Discord servers.

We have already discussed the dev’s mistakes at length; he could have handled things more thoughtfully. But what’s done is done. The situation is now a dead end, and I doubt he could have fixed things after all these bad decisions and their consequences.
It’s unfortunate, a waste of talent, ideas, and potential, but that’s how things are now.

 

[josh963]

Any pussy sex scene between MC and queen morgana?

 

[blurrypop]

Any pussy sex scene between MC and queen morgana?

No, only anal

 

[Alex20232077]

Any pussy sex scene between MC and queen morgana?

If you mean MC sister - Morrigan, then no. But if you mean MC mother - Morgana, then yes, there is.

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

Any pussy sex scene between MC and queen morgana?

No, only anal

If you mean MC sister - Morrigan, then no. But if you mean MC mother - Morgana, then yes, there is.

 

[Hextorr]

I understand your point, but the damage is already done. I can also see why the developer wanted to start fresh by distancing himself from a heavily tarnished image.

That said, even if it’s not so common, developers facing difficulties, whether personal or related to their games, sometimes delete all their accounts suddenly and without warning. It’s unrealistic to apply a single rule to everyone since behaviors, values, and mindsets differ widely.

Unlike you, I doubt his reputation would have survived if he had kept his accounts open, even after publicly apologizing and trying to make amends. I’ve seen several devs hang on, only to give up, rush their game’s ending, or walk away. People don’t forget easily, and forgiveness is rare.

Some time ago, I was in contact with a developer overwhelmed by harsh and constant criticism, some of it very toxic and bordering on harassment. In the end, he rushed his game’s conclusion, deleted all his accounts, and left the adult game scene entirely. The mental pressure was too much despite his efforts to hold on. His case shows that your view isn’t absolute.

Rebuilding a seriously damaged reputation and regaining public trust is very difficult. Some devs fail because a significant part of their audience, full of resentment, simply won’t forgive. A lot of new devs avoid engaging on F95 because of its bad reputation, something often brought up on their Discord servers.

We have already discussed the dev’s mistakes at length; he could have handled things more thoughtfully. But what’s done is done. The situation is now a dead end, and I doubt he could have fixed things after all these bad decisions and their consequences.
It’s unfortunate, a waste of talent, ideas, and potential, but that’s how things are now.

Honestly, if feedback and criticism is such a burden, get someone else to do PR for filter it for you. I'm sure there are several regulars on here and other similar forums who would be willing to fill the role. maybe for a small % of the patreon income or something similar. all would need to be done is have that person monitor the forums and discord, filter useful feedback from griping, pass on the constructive criticism and suggestions. that would help distance yourself as the dev from being overwhelmed when the inevitably social media bandwagon starts rolling, and still maintain some legit feedback to make the game better. as someone with heavy anxiety and depression, it's what I would do. i've had to learn how to work around my issues in life and ngl, still figuring stuff out. but this one is something i truly believe would help.