Ren'Py What a Legend! [v0.7.05] [MagicNuts]

[irezawa]

For that to really happen you really need better alternatives first.

I must admit, I really don't see your point here. For me the alternative for wasting money is to not waste money at all, not to find another way to waste money. You don't have to support anything if there's nothing worth supporting. It's not like there's an unstoppable stream of money flowing from your wallet and you must guide it somewhere; you can bloody well dam the damn thing.

I'm starting to feel that maybe you and many other people don't really understand how sites like Patreon work: You're not actually buying anything, you're simply supporting the developers to do whatever they see fit, hoping it would some day result into something. You're not paying for a product, you're paying for process and might not even get that much. Misunderstanding like this would certainly explain a lot.

I myself prefer

You must be registered to see the links

because in there you don't pay for someone to do something or nothing, you're paying for the download. It's a lot closer to buying something, even though the product might not be final. But the point is, you're not paying anything until the dev has actually done something. And if you really like what you see, you may even decide to throw in some extra bucks.

I don't mind paying for things beforehand, sometimes it's a necessary incentive to get things rolling. But it should be conditional. In Patreon it isn't. If you're getting nothing, at least stop paying for it.

 

[moskyx]

I must admit, I really don't see your point here. For me the alternative for wasting money is to not waste money at all, not to find another way to waste money. You don't have to support anything if there's nothing worth supporting. It's not like there's an unstoppable stream of money flowing from your wallet and you must guide it somewhere; you can bloody well dam the damn thing.

I'm starting to feel that maybe you and many other people don't really understand how sites like Patreon work: You're not actually buying anything, you're simply supporting the developers to do whatever they see fit, hoping it would some day result into something. You're not paying for a product, you're paying for process and might not even get that much. Misunderstanding like this would certainly explain a lot.

I myself prefer

You must be registered to see the links

because in there you don't pay for someone to do something or nothing, you're paying for the download. It's a lot closer to buying something, even though the product might not be final. But the point is, you're not paying anything until the dev has actually done something. And if you really like what you see, you may even decide to throw in some extra bucks.

I don't mind paying for things beforehand, sometimes it's a necessary incentive to get things rolling. But it should be conditional. In Patreon it isn't. If you're getting nothing, at least stop paying for it.

While you clearly understand how Patreon works, I'd say you just don't seem to share why someone would prefer to use this system instead of itch.io because your mindset is more focused on getting the actual product. Which is totally fine, just not how everybody feels. Because people who use Patreon are indeed getting something, even if the update is delayed: apart from WIP videos and spoiler pics (and progress reports), they are getting the satisfaction of supporting something or someone they like and trust -until they just don't.

Usually, people using Patreon knows this quite well and understand the implications, and this is especially true in a case like WaL, as the game is totally free and no one needs to pay a dime for it, so people paying on Patreon month after month are clearly supporting the process, not paying for a product. And those misunderstandings you mention usually come from people who are unable to grasp this whole 'patronage' concept. Those are the ones who jump to claim 'scam' as soon as a dev doesn't update their game as frequently as they'd wish, without realizing it can't be a scam if the ones actually paying are not feeling misled and feel perfectly OK with it. It's just something these critics won't support, but nothing else. Everyone feeling the process (and the waiting) is not worth their money anymore are free to stop supporting devs at any time. And it's their money and their choice, not anyone else's. Not getting that there are other people out there who have different views on how to spend their own money is the kind of 'misunderstandings that would certainly explain a lot' of these discussions.

BTW, they actually released something yesterday. A new 0.6.03 version that complies with the new Patreon's ToS.

============================================================
====================== CHANGELOG ============================
============================================================

***0.6.03:***
- In the prologue, the MC is aged by one year: he was not allowed to be in the brothel's main halls until after he was 18, and he left for the New Capital on his nineteenth birthday.
- For his nineteenth birthday, his moms were going to throw a surprise orgy for him involving the newer girls in the brothel (instead of themselves)
- The MC does not play with the sleeping Lana's breasts before trying to steal her bottle.
- Before having sex with Maple, a few lines have been added to establish that despite shrinking, his mind was not impacted by the influence of her pixie magic.

 

[Fantaldebert]

true, but marking game as abandoned when its not is still misinformation and misleading, just because developer doesn't upload in time, he will... soon enough lol

I somewhat agree that it's misinformation but not misleading.
On one side, it's important to show that something wrong is happening. (ie, no update for more tha 18 months or no sign of dev for 3 months) to warn people not reading every pages of back and forth debate. It's clear signal for potential new patreon or just people investing their time in a story that might never end.

For exemple, I like Rothfuss's the Kingslayer chronicle, it's very engaging and well writen but I'm warning all my friends that while the reading is great, third volume probably won't ever happen and the story will remain unfinished.

On the other hand, the term ABANDONED isn't very accurate. The devs are still posting. Maybe some other term could be used. I fear Scammy Behavior would be to negative. Prolonged Iatus would be deflecting. On Hold is another F95 tag with another meaning.
Note that this tag is purely internal to F95, there is no such thing on WaL discord or patreon.

In the end, there has to be a term and this one will do.

 

[Kisama33]

BTW, they actually released something yesterday. A new 0.6.03 version that complies with the new Patreon's ToS.

Great, the "I consent" update is here...
Wait doesn't that means we can finally get rid of the abandoned tag.

 

[Black Orchid]

what did the new version even change?

 

[Kisama33]

On one side, it's important to show that something wrong is happening. (ie, no update for more tha 18 months or no sign of dev for 3 months) to warn people not reading every pages of back and forth debate. It's clear signal for potential new patreon or just people investing their time in a story that might never end.

While I understand the importance of that, this information can be easily accessed by checking the original post and the information on it regarding the last update date but I do know that most people just ignore it and just go straight to what they want but the word used to describe this especific scenario where the game is still "ongoing" it's still not something I can really agree with.

 

[Kisama33]

what did the new version even change?

It's right there below the quote from my message.

 

[Black Orchid]

It's right there below the quote from my message.

what you said doesn't tell me much

 

[Kisama33]

what you said doesn't tell me much

Like I said the only thing I know about those changes is this:

"***0.6.03:***
- In the prologue, the MC is aged by one year: he was not allowed to be in the brothel's main halls until after he was 18, and he left for the New Capital on his nineteenth birthday.
- For his nineteenth birthday, his moms were going to throw a surprise orgy for him involving the newer girls in the brothel (instead of themselves)
- The MC does not play with the sleeping Lana's breasts before trying to steal her bottle.
- Before having sex with Maple, a few lines have been added to establish that despite shrinking, his mind was not impacted by the influence of her pixie magic."

That like I pointed out was below the message I quoted and that you could have checked by clicking in the name of the original member who made it to be redirected to it to see for yourself.

 

[moskyx]

Great, the "I consent" update is here...
Wait doesn't that means we can finally get rid of the abandoned tag.

I don't think so. No new content has been added, other than those dialogue changes. I don't think this should qualify as a new update per forum rules.

 

[Rosswel]

Like I said the only thing I know about those changes is this:

"***0.6.03:***
- In the prologue, the MC is aged by one year: he was not allowed to be in the brothel's main halls until after he was 18, and he left for the New Capital on his nineteenth birthday.
- For his nineteenth birthday, his moms were going to throw a surprise orgy for him involving the newer girls in the brothel (instead of themselves)
- The MC does not play with the sleeping Lana's breasts before trying to steal her bottle.
- Before having sex with Maple, a few lines have been added to establish that despite shrinking, his mind was not impacted by the influence of her pixie magic."

That like I pointed out was below the message I quoted and that you could have checked by clicking in the name of the original member who made it to be redirected to it to see for yourself.

Patreon new TOS is a pain in the ass, isn't it? Makes me wonder if the new TOS have any effect on the writing for the next update that makes it necessary to rewrite some part of it thus delaying the update

 

[Woodalicca]

A wise man once said " we have the leaders we deserve ".

In this case, " Pledgers got what they deserved "

Almost 2 years of waiting, tasks keeps on getting delayed, never ending polishing. Well, it's your cash in the end. Feel free to keep on throwing it out of the window.

You reap what you sow by not hitting the purse.

What a Kick in the Teeth !

 

[Cro]

funny how some of the best art people are paired with the absolute worst programmers

 

[slick97]

Well, at least you know the state of the 2D weg scene in general, given that it's literally (among) the best alternative(s) to WaL! and SS in terms of quality at the moment.

A few other devs are making a strong showing in the 2D space (Parasite Black and Refuge of Embers). But yeah, it's looking grim for anyone who enjoys this style of art - especially since it results in diverse character designs rather than reusing the same few Daz/HS2 models over and over.

What's crazy to me is that some devs started and are close to ending their projects in the same amount of time this update is taking to release.

 

[Kirel]

Pistachio also noted the following planned change for v0.8 (Holly's update):

"At the end, I couldn't do Celestina's change without extra art, and I don't want Chestnut to stop her work to create art for v0.6, especially since the next release is about Holly and the change I had in mind is not strictly necessary, but desirable. The MC chooses to kiss Celestina after seeing her through the glasses, and that she had been trying to get him to do it in return for her leaving Holly alone is not addressed. I would like to address that, and give the players the choice to not kiss her at all, but that will have to wait until v0.8."

 

[j4yj4m]

funny how some of the best art people are paired with the absolute worst programmers

That's likely because games, where there's no resident artist/dev, usually don't come this far once there are troubles. In that case it's often just over (see for example MilftoonDrama). NSFW artists in general seem to be hard to work with and it's hard to find somebody who is willing to commit for such a long time, even if you pay them really well. Most people rather work for their own project as it seems.

But yeah, it's looking grim for anyone who enjoys this style of art - especially since it results in diverse character designs rather than reusing the same few Daz/HS2 models over and over.

It's the great upside of 2D art, that every little detail is possible without limits. Then again, the big downside is that it takes a lot of time to draw all of that.

What's crazy to me is that some devs started and are close to ending their projects in the same amount of time this update is taking to release.

It really very often boils down to the complexity of the game. Of course mishaps/delays can always happen, but games like this one will take more time per update in any case, compared to your standard VN/RPGM game.

 

[hisnik2]

Like I said the only thing I know about those changes is this:

"***0.6.03:***
- In the prologue, the MC is aged by one year: he was not allowed to be in the brothel's main halls until after he was 18, and he left for the New Capital on his nineteenth birthday.
- For his nineteenth birthday, his moms were going to throw a surprise orgy for him involving the newer girls in the brothel (instead of themselves)
- The MC does not play with the sleeping Lana's breasts before trying to steal her bottle.
- Before having sex with Maple, a few lines have been added to establish that despite shrinking, his mind was not impacted by the influence of her pixie magic."

That like I pointed out was below the message I quoted and that you could have checked by clicking in the name of the original member who made it to be redirected to it to see for yourself.

WTF

 

[YouShallNotLol]

It really very often boils down to the complexity of the game. Of course mishaps/delays can always happen, but games like this one will take more time per update in any case, compared to your standard VN/RPGM game.

What fucking complexity are you talking about?
WAL is super linear, without any branching choices, with no gameplay whatsoever, not even minigames and is made on Ren'py.
This game literally couldn't be any simpler in terms of production.

To add insult to injury, many "standard" VN/RPGM games at least have branching plots/several endings and sometimes gameplay.

 

[j4yj4m]

What fucking complexity are you talking about?
WAL is super linear, without any branching choices, with no gameplay whatsoever, not even minigames and is made on Ren'py.
This game literally couldn't be any simpler in terms of production.

To add insult to injury, many "standard" VN/RPGM games at least have branching plots/several endings and sometimes gameplay.

I was indeed talking about the artworks, not about the coding. The number of sprites for each character, the details when it comes to backgrounds and characters, the animations, etc. - all of that takes a lot more time compared to most simpler 2D games where each character maybe as 2 or 3 different sprites and where your average background is as generic and without detail as it gets.

Normally it's mostly the art which takes the most time and which ultimately basically decides the time it takes to release an update.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

I was indeed talking about the artworks, not about the coding. The number of sprites for each character, the details when it comes to backgrounds and characters, the animations, etc. - all of that takes a lot more time compared to most simpler 2D games where each character maybe as 2 or 3 different sprites and where your average background is as generic and without detail as it gets.

Normally it's mostly the art which takes the most time and which ultimately basically decides the time it takes to release an update.

Yeah, complexity of required artwork is much more reasonable.

But the issue is - atrwork was supposed to be done months ago, from looking at their "progress report" thingies.
And they've been stuck "bugfixing" for God knows how long now.
What could they be possibly fixing? Aside from wrong sprites being used in a scene, but it should take a few minutes at most even for people without much coding experience.