Ren'Py What a Legend! [v0.7.05] [MagicNuts]

[lazymunchlax]

Never understood the sentiment that by paying for the Patreon you support the developer, not the product. So what, if they stop developing the game alltogether, by this logic the patreon money shouldn't decrease? You support the people, not the game, right? If I start patreon tomorrow let's see how much money I will get, even though I am a swell guy and need it as much as the devs. Obviously by supporting the patreon of developers you support the development of the game, otherwise they wouldn't have a whole ass screen with thanks to the supporters in-game. And even if you disagree, and think that devs don't owe players anything, why is it entitlement when people complain that the game update takes 16+ months? Should we stop criticising any free products whatsoever by this point? If my instagram app works like shit I will give a low score at the Apple store and write a bad comment, even though it is free.
From my point of view 16 months of development for 2-3 hour update is nuts, and I don't think this point of view is as insane as you are making it out to be. People spend a lot of money to support the development of the game, and get short ai-ass progress reports for months, and the moment they come with questions and complains on the platform to discuss it, they get blasted by everybody as if they said something stupid or wrong. Doesn't make too much sense to me.

The point is, I want them to make this game.
So I support them so they are able to do so.

If they didn't have patreon, they'd have to get 9-5 jobs and either wouldn't be making the game, or would barely have time to do it.
The basis began when old youtubers made youtube channels as a "Passion Project". Basically, they spent what little time they had making content because they enjoyed it.
By making this hobby a viable source of revenue, they do it "Full time".

Now, to re-iterate.
You can decide if, how and when you support someone.

If you want a product, this isn't it. They aren't selling a product, so giving their patreon money isn't buying a product.
To believe it is, is scamming yourself.

If you decide "Hm, they haven't given enough content fast enough, I'm going to stop my support" then you are FREE to make that choice.

If after they start pumping content you go "After that lengthy break, I'm going to withold my decision until I see an improved release schedule that consistently maintains itself" then you are FREE.

Dont support someone when you don't want to.

My only stake here, is not to comment on the people themselves, especially not when you or anyone has misunderstood what the point of a patreon is.

 

[Biscardone]

Never understood the sentiment that by paying for the Patreon you support the developer, not the product. So what, if they stop developing the game alltogether, by this logic the patreon money shouldn't decrease? You support the people, not the game, right? If I start patreon tomorrow let's see how much money I will get, even though I am a swell guy and need it as much as the devs. Obviously by supporting the patreon of developers you support the development of the game, otherwise they wouldn't have a whole ass screen with thanks to the supporters in-game. And even if you disagree, and think that devs don't owe players anything, why is it entitlement when people complain that the game update takes 16+ months? Should we stop criticising any free products whatsoever by this point? If my instagram app works like shit I will give a low score at the Apple store and write a bad comment, even though it is free.
From my point of view 16 months of development for 2-3 hour update is nuts, and I don't think this point of view is as insane as you are making it out to be. People spend a lot of money to support the development of the game, and get short ai-ass progress reports for months, and the moment they come with questions and complains on the platform to discuss it, they get blasted by everybody as if they said something stupid or wrong. Doesn't make too much sense to me.

It may surprise you, but the patronage mechanism works exactly like that: you're paying the person, not the product. Sure thing, you're paying a person because of their reputation, and with the promise of a future "product": but often, and practically always in the case of modern Patreon, there is no binding contract. Oh, and by the way, this is historically true:

You must be registered to see the links

you can read about Isabella d’Este complaining about Leonardo Da Vinci getting continually distracted and working at a glacial pace.

The issue here is: this discussion is already done to death, and is beyond stale at this point. All the facts are on the plate: on one side, the chapters development time has increased with time, and given the number of female cast members and locations that have been put in the game as a preview, the game development is bound to last a *very* long time, which may lead to project untenability in the long term (because of waning interest from the patrons or, in the worst case, the authors themselves). On the flipside, the authors have been straightforward about their issues and the development process, provide a tracker and frequent updates, and have shown goodwill by refunding patrons. Feel free to interpret facts as you like, but don't be surprised that your interpretation may not be the same as other people's - because after a certain point you're basically trying to mind read MagicNuts' intentions.

Oh, and given all this, trying to convince other people you're right is supremely pointless. It only leads to more bickering and non-factual speculation. In other words, factionalized social media dynamics and discourse at its worst.

 

[Daquarius]

Take all the time you want, honestly, this game has some of the most attractive created female artworks I've seen. Myrtle is Top-Tier Level period, her facial look, her figure, it's simply perfection. Yes, I do hope that their is the ability to make them pregnant, possibly starting a family option if possible (of course we don't want to be limited to just one).

I Know that an option of having a lot of kids in a game would be fun, but please, only one child is more than enough. I don't want faceless golems like in summertime saga that disappear after a few hours in real life

 

[evilman3]

I assume you've never worked yourself and earned any money, and you're probably still living in your parents house with all the commodities and have now family your own? Well, in that case getting almost $100k a year seems to be much, I agree.

lmao. Great assumptions, they couldn't be farther from the truth. When people talk about earnings, I don't know about your country, but in my country, we don't just exclude taxes automatically when talking about annual earnings. 40% tax? Buddy, have you ever done any taxes?

Spain uses a bracket system, the literal highest bracket that €88k would get to is 44% but that only applies to the 60k-120k part of the income. Their average income tax would be around 31% (

You must be registered to see the links

). After social security contribution, they'd end up with around €57,500 net income. This is without any income splitting or having their own corporation that they pay themselves from to reduce their tax rate, since corporate tax rate in Spain seems to be 15% (

You must be registered to see the links

).

The average rent in Spain is about $1k to $1.5k depending on where you live (same source as above). That's another $12k-$18k a year.

Using the average rent of a whole country is ridiculous and probably skews any calculation. Let's use a cost of living estimator. Let's assume they live in the one of the most expensive city in Spain, Barcelona. CoL estimator puts them at €57k (

You must be registered to see the links

), 3 bdrm in city center, so they probably don't live there. A cheaper city like Valencia (€39k,

You must be registered to see the links

) or Malaga (€44k,

You must be registered to see the links

), is pretty livable at that income. With €13-18k savings every year, without accounting for any deferred taxes or investment income.

I'm myself working in IT (software development), and it might take 1-3 years (!) of paid work until a new update is ready!

You're talking like your company doesn't track any progress in terms of PRs, smaller milestones, demos or anything. All we have to go on is these weekly updates. Just do standup meetings every day and nothing to show for it (no PRs or JIRA tickets or demos), see how long they pay you.

So all I'm saying that if they're earning a decent salary working this slowly, why would they ever finish this game. Sure, they might be working 6 days a week but if they're only working 4 hours every day, that's a great life for them!

 

[Friday@Stark]

Next update on?

 

[ScionDayne]

Next update on?

Same time next year?

 

[KingBea]

Weekly report 187

Hi everybody.
I hope you're all doing well and have had a great week.
First, I want to confirm that we will be taking a few days off in the next couple of weeks: December 15th (our older daughter's birthday), December 25th, and January 1st.

Now, the report:
Chestnut:
She worked on redoing the cutscene from the intro of Gomira's update. She did many sketches and a few final panels but told me today that she still hasn't found the style she's looking for. She plans to do something we haven't tried until now: drawing this cutscene using traditional media, and we'll later scan them, clean them up, and add them to the game. To make sure this is indeed the right style before committing to the whole series of images -- it's a longish cutscene -- we'll first do a test with a few artworks). She told me today, half-amusedly, that in 2023 when everybody is using AI generation for their artworks, we're going backward and returning to traditional.

Pistachio:
I mainly focused on posing scenes from Gomira's second quest, and I'm happy to say that we have finally passed the 90% mark (despite adding many extra tasks, as needed). Gomira's story has turned crazier than I had expected since we're adding something to our little world that we had planned to do since the 0.1, and I hope that after the many changes (and I have been changing and editing a lot by going back and forth to improve the overall feel and make sure events make sense) you will like the final outcome. It's noteworthy that when deviating from the initial plan, I always try to make sure we use the completed art (or I will have to sleep on the sofa), but that has not always been possible, meaning that at a certain point (likely after I'm done with the content) Chestnut will have to return to the game, test it, and create new artworks to replace my placeholders.

Next week's plan:
As mentioned above, Chestnut will work on the style of the cutscene from the introductory parts of Gomira's quest, and I will continue editing and posing dialogues; my goal is to reach a specific part of the story by the end of this month.

That's all.
Have a wonderful weekend.
Cheers

 

[john_demans]

no way we have people ITT doing more hardcore calculations on the devs’ hypothetical rent than i have ever done for my own rent

 

[Porthas]

They're earning around $95k USD a year not really releasing a game. Why would they ever finish this? lol.

The financial incentive to finish a project is extremely low, if not entirely non-existent.

 

[whichone]

So all I'm saying that if they're earning a decent salary working this slowly, why would they ever finish this game. Sure, they might be working 6 days a week but if they're only working 4 hours every day, that's a great life for them!

To ensure that they can continue earning a decent salary doing something that they enjoy for a living.

You talk as if their support will unconditionally remain. It won't.
If they do what you're suggesting & just string patrons along, they won't be able to make a living from it for very long.
If they ensure that what they deliver is good & justifies the wait (along with the already accepted justification for the delay, caused by two operations & a new child), then their existing patrons remain happy.

The financial incentive to finish a project is extremely low, if not entirely non-existent.

Finshing a project is not exactly necessary & doesn't need to be the goal, for these types of games.
If they can come up with new stories, new areas to explore, etc, why does the project need to end?
As long as they can maintain their own interest in telling a story & keep coming up with fresh ideas that keep players engaged, "finishing a project" is really not necessary.

How many times have you reached the end of an enjoyable game & wished there was more of it? I can think of a good few.

 

[Porthas]

To ensure that they can continue earning a decent salary doing something that they enjoy for a living.

You talk as if their support will unconditionally remain. It won't.
If they do what you're suggesting & just string patrons along, they won't be able to make a living from it for very long.
If they ensure that what they deliver is good & justifies the wait (along with the already accepted justification for the delay, caused by two operations & a new child), then their existing patrons remain happy.

Only if you're not capable of long-term thinking, or not interested in etsablishing a good reputation.

From what I've seen, even dev's with a bad "reputation" still rake in a lot of patron money. People complain about that all the time.

Regardless, any patron dev can change their username and start a new, interesting looking project and start the cycle all over again.

These devs may end up being honest, conscientious developers and finish their project. Nice honest people exist. I still think the patron financial model is flawed and doesn't offer incentive to finish projects. It's what I've observed after watching the situation for several years now.

 

[wikiflikijustin]

I assume you've never worked yourself and earned any money, and you're probably still living in your parents house with all the commodities and have now family your own? Well, in that case getting almost $100k a year seems to be much, I agree.

But first of all: they don't get ~$100k. Nor $95k. They have to pay taxes and shit. As they're located in Spain, the average living costs in Spain for a family of four is about $2.4k per month without rent (

You must be registered to see the links

). That's $30k a year -- again: without rent! The average rent in Spain is about $1k to $1.5k depending on where you live (same source as above). That's another $12k-$18k a year. Now we're already up to about $45k to $50k a year they have to spend on expenses, just to enjoy a roof over their head and be able to pay for food, and their basic needs (like electricity and stuff). Taking in account the average 40% taxes they'll have to pay on their income (

You must be registered to see the links

), they are left with about $500 to $1k at most per month to spend. I might be wrong about this, it's just a quick 'n dirty calculation.

Both of them are working their butts off (at least 5 days a week, sometimes even 6 days a week!). Have they posted a game update during the last year? No, they haven't -- so what? I'm myself working in IT (software development), and it might take 1-3 years (!) of paid work until a new update is ready! Am I lazy? Am I milking my employer? I wish I could, but I'm getting tracked on a weekly basis, and everyone is OK with the progress we're achieving. MagicNuts are pretty much doing the same: the basically report their progress every week, and eventually the update will be ready and available (even for those who haven't "invested" in their work!).

So what's different between me and MagicNuts? Well, I do have a non-cancelable contract, which guarantees me a certain amount of money per month/year. They don't. So all they got is the voluntary donations they got from people who love their work, and still believe and trust them. But for them it can change every moment, and they get like $1k to $2k less per month... For me it won't change, even if I work slower than usual...

Please feel free to become a freelancer yourself, living just off the humble donations of people who enjoy and love your work. But to be honest, I don't think you'll ever do something like that. You don't have the balls. You'd rather work as a burger-flipper to get just enough money to go out and have some beer with your friends while still living at your mom's house.

why you dickriding them so hard? they dont know who you are and they dont care

 

[whichone]

These devs may end up being honest, conscientious developers and finish their project. Nice honest people exist. I still think the patron financial model is flawed and doesn't offer incentive to finish projects. It's what I've observed after watching the situation for several years now.

So, because you've seen some devs behave like assholes, does that automatically mean that every dev is going to be one?
I've met a few con-men, it doesn't mean that I automatically assume every person I meet is one.
I'd suggest judging them by their own actions, rather than by generically applying the actions of the worst minority of others.

Of course it doesn't offer incentive to finish projects. It never claimed to, that's not what a patron does.
A patron supports the artist. Yes, that continued support is largely dependant upon projects being finished, but it is not a defining factor in being a patron.

As I said, these games don't need to end. If the dev maintains their enjoyment for telling a story & can keep thinking of new ones to tell, within the game's world & the players continue to enjoy\support it, why does it need to finish?

Continuing this game, with new stories, is not actually any different to starting a new game, with a different story.
Except for the fact that you already know that the playerbase likes these characters. So there's no risk with telling more stories with them.

Think of an author who has the same protagonist in 10 novels. e.g. James Patterson: Alex Cross.
If the dev of one of these games did the same amount of story for one MC, that game could quite feasibly never end.
The key thing is that it's only viable as long as people are still happy to pay to support the process.

 

[Porthas]

So, because you've seen some devs behave like assholes, does that automatically mean that every dev is going to be one?
I've met a few con-men, it doesn't mean that I automatically assume every person I meet is one.

I've made this point, purely based on the system itself. I've made no negative (or positive) statements about these developers. Human nature being what it is, we do things mostly on financial incentive. Money is what we need to eat, provide housing, take care of our loved one's, etc. It's why with a project like these, games, I prefer to to offer financial incentive for finished projects.

Of course it doesn't offer incentive to finish projects. It never claimed to, that's not what a patron does.

So we agree then. Considering how many people expect a finished game from these projects, I don't think many people go into sponsoring a project with an attitude that they don't care whether the game is finished or not. It would appear that most people view these patron payments like an investment into a finished product. Like perhaps a Kickstarter campaign.

It's why people get irritated if it looks like all their money went to nothing (an unfinished game) and it's also why, if folks have been donating for a while, they may be reluctant to pull out of a project. They don't want to see something they invested in fail.

 

[Porthas]

Yes & you've just made precisely the correct point: "people expect".
People should understand what they're signing up for & manage their expectations accordingly.
No-one signed up to Patreon to buy a game, regardless of whether they thought they did, or not.

If they spent a bit of time understanding what they were actually doing with their money, instead of assuming what they're doing with it, they wouldn't get so irritated.
Key point of prev: "It never claimed to".
If they expect something they have no right to expect, it's not on anyone else, but them.

The Patreon system is not "flawed". It operates with exactly the same model as patrons have for centuries (as Biscardone showed in his post re. one of Da Vinci's patrons getting annoyed by him working at a snail's pace).

Ultimately it'll become a problem for the entire system as folks slowly catch on that a large portion of these projects never get finished and their expectations don't get met. Then it'll become a large problem for the small developers using this system as involvement drops off. So, whether or not people "should" expect x or y from Patreon, what ultimately matters is a system that satisfies both parties in the exchange.

 

[whichone]

Ultimately it'll become a problem for the entire system as folks slowly catch on that a large portion of these projects never get finished and their expectations don't get met. Then it'll become a large problem for the small developers using this system as involvement drops off. So, whether or not people "should" expect x or y from Patreon, what ultimately matters is a system that satisfies both parties in the exchange.

Doesn't alter the fact.
People should only expect what they're actually entitled to.
It's why most of their arguments get dismissed as "entitled". Because they're moaning about something they had no right to expect & that's on them, no-one else.
It doesn't take much to find out the facts about what they're doing with their money. If they choose not to & believe something else, it's entirely their fault.

The system is not flawed.
It does what it states & that is precisely what it should do, by literal definition of the term "

You must be registered to see the links

".
People assuming what they're signing up for & then finding out it's not what they assumed, does not equate to a flawed system.
It's simply:

 

[Porn_Jesus]

If only this lazy forum would have a filter for words like milking, lazy dev, xx amount of cash/month and so on that would trigger auto deletion of comments.

Wouldn't that be a sight, being spared from the same shit for once without having to either block all the spammers (they multiply, sadly) or entire threads...

 

[moskyx]

Actually, Patreon system is almost perfect, if there's honesty from the artist. Do you want to support an artist lifestyle? You can, just sign up and keep paying until you change your mind about them. Do you want to 'buy' a product? You can, just sign up right after the artist releases something, pay the amount of money you think their creation deserves, and then unsubscribe a second later. In this particular case we have more than enough info to adjust our expectations and choose what to do with our money: a big map, a lot of girls and side stories to tell, a very personal artstyle that takes time to be done, 6 updates released so far (each one bigger and 'slower' than the previous one), and daily reports that show the development pace - so all of us can easily infere this is going to take a while. Sure, all of this lead many people to think it's not worth their money for whatever reason (mine is they're doing more than OK without my financial support - and here you have another bit of info, as they don't hide their income figures as others do), but there are almost 2k people who are happy enough with it to keep funding this project and its creators. And they are not 'wrong' nor fooled into a con, they just have other expectations than those who freely choose not to spend a single buck on this. All I'd hope from non-supporters is to at least be honest and not spread lies or insult the devs and the actual supporters that, in the end, make the game possible and free for all.

 

[whichone]

If only this lazy forum would have a filter for words like milking, lazy dev, xx amount of cash/month and so on that would trigger auto deletion of comments.

Wouldn't that be a sight, being spared from the same shit for once without having to either block all the spammers (they multiply, sadly) or entire threads...

Unfortunately, there's a limit on the number you can block.

 

[Xupuzulla]

If only this lazy forum would have a filter for words like milking, lazy dev, xx amount of cash/month and so on that would trigger auto deletion of comments.

Wouldn't that be a sight, being spared from the same shit for once without having to either block all the spammers (they multiply, sadly) or entire threads...

You want this pirate site to be a echo chamber where the devs only get praise?