What Games Design lessons can you teach me?

[rawmeatgames]

Hi there,

I'm a complete newbie to this forum; so first of all... hello!
With that out the way, I was hoping I could get some advice from you kind folk.

I'm interested in making an adult video game, but I need your guidance.
I come from a background in AAA game development, and studied 3d animation at university. I worked for various studios but the world of professional video game development is painfully uncreative, and I wanted to do my own thing. After seeing how well many Patreons are doing in the adult space it piqued my interest. After telling a friend about it, he pointed me in the direction of this forum and towards Ren'py. Since then I've downloaded and tried out a few games (see below): some good, some so-so; but I'm still an utter novice compared to you veterans!

I've started to notice some tropes / common themes in the games I've been playing; some I like, some I don't. For example, the games usually have a sex-hungry protagonist who seeks to earn favor with various NPCs to progress their relationship and 'reward' the player with sex scenes (usually in a tiered way, starting off with gentle sexual acts, and climaxing with vaginal/anal intercourse or gangbangs). Usually NPCs are varied in appearance, and often represent a different fetish (presumably to cater to as wide an audience as possible). And for the games which don't follow the visual novel linear/ branching-linear format, it also looks like 'point and click adventure games' and 'farm management games' are the genres which are leaned on the heaviest. I could be speaking out my ass though (I've not experienced many porn games after all)

Games are never made in a vacuum. They stand atop the lessons learned from both failed games that have come before, and the successful ones. I know woefully little about good and bad porn games though, so I currently don't know any of these lessons!

Could you please impart any pearls of Games-Design wisdom you have come across in this area? Perhaps recommend games to me that you think will be helpful from a games design perspective? Also, please for a moment forget about the whole 'does X count as a game thing: I'm happy to craft a completely linear visual novel free from player choice if that's what people would prefer from their porn-media experience. I'm interested in the games you think did something well AND the games you think serve as excellent examples of how frustrating bad games design can be. If you think some designs like 'resource grinding' are bullshit then I wanna know. Are you a developer, and have noticed certain interesting feedback from your audience you didn't expect? Do you hate porn games that culminate in a sandbox environment, or do you see that as a good thing which allows you to cherry-pick focusing on the characters/relationships that matter to you? Are there reward mechanisms that keep you hooked? What makes you play a porn-game rather than chuck on a pornhub vid / looping animated gif? TEACH ME! (please...)

Any insights you can provide would be appreciated!

---
P.S. as a newbie looking to make his first adult game, I don't know what is a good amount of 'starting content' to have for an initial demo. Is there a standard that is expected?
P.P.S. the games ive tried so far include (in order) Summertime Saga, Treasure of Nadia, Lust Epidemic, Something Unlimited, WVM.

 

[Marcibx]

Hi there, it is a shame that nobody has answered such an intelligent question.
I love to talk about games - both erotic and others - so feel free to contact me on Discord: Marcibx#7987
I like your approach to game design (the fact that you are working in it explains it), so I would gladly talk with you about games even if it is not related to this post (if you are familiar with it, I love

You must be registered to see the links

)
I am currently developing a game with a 3D artist and would definitely appreciate some input from a pro.
And to answer your question, it is suggested to have about 1 hour of gameplay in your first release. In a pure visual novel that is about 10k words.

 

[Crimson Delight Games]

Hmmm... the two biggest ones I can think of right now are:

(1) write a design document which outlines everything from characters and story to gameplay mechanics

(2) keep mindful of feature creep - it can really bog down your production pipeline if you're not careful

 

[DuniX]

Isn't this a pretty old thread? OP is probably long gone.

 

[Marcibx]

Isn't this a pretty old thread? OP is probably long gone.

Yeah, it is an old thread and the question is probably not relevant for him, but he still visits the site and I would love to chat with him, and answering old unanswered questions is good for others looking for the same answer. (Otherwise people will just keep posting the same question until one of them gets an answer.)

 

[DuniX]

Well to keep it relevant to question of this supposed "thread".

I am just not seeing how much Game Design you should expect from this Forum and Community.
Most projects here have No Fucking Gameplay, and that includes the supposedly "Sandbox Games".
And for the Games that should technically be considered to have "Gameplay", the Game Design can be considered amateurish at best. Not even the basics of Genre that constitutes functional game loop.

The most ideas of "Game Design" here is to add a bunch of Grind, which is fine for the purpose of padding out the content and give it a sense of pacing and progression but does make for much of a "Game".

It's a bit of a shame since it's my belief that you can take any of those simple games that you find from those Starving Indie Steam Developers, and if you just added a bunch of Porn those games they would be far more marketable and successful.

I would love to see more games like this.

 

[Marcibx]

Well to keep it relevant to question of this supposed "thread".

I am just not seeing how much Game Design you should expect from this Forum and Community.
Most projects here have No Fucking Gameplay, and that includes the supposedly "Sandbox Games".
And for the Games that should technically be considered to have "Gameplay", the Game Design can be considered amateurish at best. Not even the basics of Genre that constitutes functional game loop.

The most ideas of "Game Design" here is to add a bunch of Grind, which is fine for the purpose of padding out the content and give it a sense of pacing and progression but does make for much of a "Game".

It's a bit of a shame since it's my belief that you can take any of those simple games that you find from those Starving Indie Steam Developers, and if you just added a bunch of Porn those games they would be far more marketable and successful.

I would love to see more games like this.

Technically you are right, but your perspective is wrong.

Yes, the game design of these games is far from even the worst indie games out there, but this is not necessarily bad.
You have to consider that this is porn. Just because a game is great, adding porn to it won't make it a great porn game.
If you replace the monsters in Doom with naked women and you chasing and fucking them, it won't be a good porn game. (It would be one hell of an experience though.)

As you yourself have pointed it out, some games don't even have gameplay and there is a reason for that. Because you don't play porn games for gameplay but for porn. That is why such a big portion of porn games is Visual Novel even though the majority of regular gamers don't even know about the existence of this format.

You might be asking "but then why not just go for porn?". Well, there are multiple reasons. For example, these games often depict taboo topics that cannot be made as porn movies. But mainly, because you can interact with it and feels like you are part of it.

And the grind part is necessary for the same reason why it is necessary in AAA games. You cannot burn at 100 degrees all the time. You have to cool off, slow down and this is the way to pace the game and build some anticipation for the next high-intensity (or, in our case, erotic) scene.

 

[DuniX]

but this is not necessarily bad.
You have to consider that this is porn. Just because a game is great, adding porn to it won't make it a great porn game.

This is Wrong. Great Games that have Porn are Great Porn Games.

If you replace the monsters in Doom with naked women and you chasing and fucking them, it won't be a good porn game.

What if you get to fuck after every Dark Souls Boss Battle if the bossed were all women? Heck yes I would!
Porn can work perfectly well as a Reward in basically Anything.

Because you don't play porn games for gameplay but for porn.

Between Playing a "Porn Game" for the "Story" or the "Gameplay". I will take the fucking Gameplay.
VNs can go fuck themselves.

And the grind part is necessary for the same reason why it is necessary in AAA games. You cannot burn at 100 degrees all the time. You have to cool off, slow down and this is the way to pace the game and build some anticipation for the next high-intensity (or, in our case, erotic) scene.

Oh shut the fuck up, that is not what Grind is.

 

[Marcibx]

This is Wrong. Great Games that have Porn are Great Porn Games.

OK, let's agree to disagree.

VNs can go fuck themselves.

We (and many others here) just like different things. There is no need to demean others.

Oh shut the fuck up, that is not what Grind is.

Sure, I oversimplified it, but basically this is what they are. In a broader way everything is grind that is perceived as the "necessary bad" to get what you want in the game. (You like fighting in a game? It is not grind. You don't like it, but have to fight to get money? It is grind.)
Also, I excluded the intentional grind which are placed there by the devs to force you into microtransactions, because that is not relevant here. (no porn game hast that)

 

[DuniX]

In a broader way everything is grind that is perceived as the "necessary bad" to get what you want in the game. (You like fighting in a game? It is not grind. You don't like it, but have to fight to get money? It is grind.)

No. Grind just means Repeated Content.
In a Game that is not necessary bad because based on some factors and variations repeated content can still be fun and a challenge.

For Porn, it literally is Repeated Content that is used to pad things out.

 

[Marcibx]

No. Grind just means Repeated Content.
In a Game that is not necessary bad because based on some factors and variations repeated content can still be fun and a challenge.

You kinda contradict yourself, but yes, grind usually refers to repeated content, however, not all repeated content is grind.

So, having a single bad moment is usually not considered as grind, but I would argue that virtually every element in a game is repeated but it does not make it grind. (Devs usually don't add a mechanic for a single use.)

Now, if grind is a mechanic that is bad to play and needs to be repeated AND all game mechanics are repeated, it means that grind is any game mechanic that is bad to play.

If you disagree, please point out with exactly which statement:

1. Every mechanic is repeated in a game
2. Every bad repeated mechanic is grind

In case you think grind has another major component that I failed to consider, please point me to it.

PS
Since I mentioned GMTK earlier, here is a great

You must be registered to see the links

about what makes gameplay become grind.

 

[DuniX]

Because Grind is never necessary and has nothing to do with having good pacing.
The Ideal is for Grind to not exist because you are properly using the Repeated Content and making them fun in any encounter.

Porn Games on the other hand never have that option, which is why I despise them when I see any hint of grind.

 

[Marcibx]

You didn't really answer my question, so it is hard to properly answer.
So, if you accept my definition, then yes, grind (bad content) is never necessary, but I am pretty sure that everybody knows this.
Devs want to add some content and it might turn out to be bad, hence they added grind, but they did not intend from the beginning to do that. They all strive to achieve that Ideal you described.

And since porn games are often made by a single guy who has never made a game, yes, the chances that the content - and by this I mean the game mechanics, because content can be the renders and story as well - will be good are rather low.
That being said, the porn content can still be good and something people enjoy. (Of course, there are many bad porn games that are bad games and bad porn.)

This is similar in other porn formats. There is a reason porn is not directed or acted like oscar winning movies. In fact, the amateur porn with poor quality is very popular. (At this point, since modern smart phones have cameras and stabilizators that create so good videos, porn creators have to mimic it and intentionally make the quality worse.)

 

[DuniX]

Devs want to add some content and it might turn out to be bad, hence they added grind, but they did not intend from the beginning to do that. They all strive to achieve that Ideal you described.

Content doesn't fucking magically go good or bad.
All Repeated Content by Default is Grind.

You need to have variability in the situation, AI behavior, encounter composition and positioning, and still maintain a decent amount of challenge from it to not be Grind.
In other words you need to intentionally design it to not make it Grind.

As for Porn Content, since they have no mechanics for variability or challenge, they can only be Grind.

 

[Velminth]

The biggest one, theming and writing and such aside is have your core idea (and mechanics if that's the case) super solid, otherwise you'll end up making prototype after prototype that just end up in the trashbin because they're not quite what you want or you want to add more to it. Clear what you want to do before you even start a code line or an asset.

 

[Marcibx]

Content doesn't fucking magically go good or bad.
All Repeated Content by Default is Grind.

You need to have variability in the situation, AI behavior, encounter composition and positioning, and still maintain a decent amount of challenge from it to not be Grind.
In other words you need to intentionally design it to not make it Grind.

As for Porn Content, since they have no mechanics for variability or challenge, they can only be Grind.

Nobody was talking about magic.
And no, not "all Repeated Content by Default is Grind." There is no "default". Grind is perceived. And usually gameplay is perceived as grind when you are not doing something for joy, but to achieve something. (In other words, grind is work.)

For example, I can love poker, play a poker game because I enjoy it, but then if a porn game introduces that element, I can perceive it as grind, because I just want the porn and only play poker to get there.

So devs have to make gameplay enjoyable and not just a means to an end in order to make it not grind.

You don't need "variability in the situation, AI behavior, encounter composition and positioning". That usually helps but you can have all of them and still be grindy (some games have all this exactly to promote grind) and at the same time you can have none of them and still not be grindy (though that game would probably only appeal to a very small segment).

Or just imagine speedrunners. They replay literally the same thing over and over and still get thrill out of it. They don't perceive it as grind.

 

[DuniX]

Grind is perceived.

Fucking Magic!

For example, I can love poker, play a poker game because I enjoy it, but then if a porn game introduces that element, I can perceive it as grind, because I just want the porn and only play poker to get there.

Then why the fuck are you playing a Porn Poker Game? For the fucking "Story"?
Sure if you are playing the wrong game for the wrong reason that can be considered grind.
But that's not the Game's fault, that's Your fault.

You don't need "variability in the situation, AI behavior, encounter composition and positioning". That usually helps but you can have all of them and still be grindy (some games have all this exactly to promote grind) and at the same time you can have none of them and still not be grindy (though that game would probably only appeal to a very small segment).

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Or just imagine speedrunners. They replay literally the same thing over and over and still get thrill out of it. They don't perceive it as grind.

If Speedrunning only had a little thing called Challenge.
Yes you can die to a Boss and repeat it 100 times, but the Challenge is maintained so it is not Grind.
It is the Challenge that is important. That's what the variability is for.

 

[Marcibx]

Then why the fuck are you playing a Porn Poker Game? For the fucking "Story"?
Sure if you are playing the wrong game for the wrong reason that can be considered grind.
But that's not the Game's fault, that's Your fault.

At this point I am not sure if you are a troll or just dumb, but let's try it one last time.

Just to be clear, this was just an example, but let's stick with it: I am playing the porn poker game because the porn is so good in it and I am willing to grind to get it. (I mean, why are people playing any games that have grind in it? Same thing.)
It is not a wrong game, because it has exactly just what I want, but it has grind on top of that.
When a game is just bad, nobody says it is grindy. Grind is usually a bad element of a good game that you want to play, but you have to "grind".
Also, why couldn't I play a porn game that has poker in it for the story? The (bad) poker is just one element out of the many others that I like and that motivate me to play.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

If Speedrunning only had a little thing called Challenge.
Yes you can die to a Boss and repeat it 100 times, but the Challenge is maintained so it is not Grind.
It is the Challenge that is important. That's what the variability is for.

Again, contradicting yourself. You say I am wrong saying that "variability in the situation, AI behavior, encounter composition and positioning" are not needed, but when I point to an example where they are not needed, you just say "OK, but Challenge".
Challenge is just like the others on the list. It can be the source of fun, but not everybody likes challenging things. For some it is just frustrating and - you guessed it - grind to keep playing a challenging part because they cannot get through it.

So, to come back to my initial point: grind is subjective. Speedrunners enjoy something that would be grind for most gamers.

 

[CocoVC]

If this is your first game:
1) Keep your scope small. Don't do your dream 'big' game yet. Keep the number of love/sex interests low.
2) If you're going for a gameplay-centered game, focus on creating the game loop first, then the story second.
3) If you're going to create a story-centered game, focus on completing the story, then create the game loop around the story.

 

[anne O'nymous]

If you replace the monsters in Doom with naked women and you chasing and fucking them, it won't be a good porn game. (It would be one hell of an experience though.)

Never heard of

You must be registered to see the links

? Exactly what you said. Not really a good or interesting game, but it worse to be played once.


Edit [I'll not double post just to answer so few to another of your posts]:

Just to be clear, this was just an example, but let's stick with it: I am playing the porn poker game because the porn is so good in it and I am willing to grind to get it. (I mean, why are people playing any games that have grind in it? Same thing.)

When it come to games like that (with a particularity in top of the lewd), it can also be for the change. There's few games that are really well made, like the Deep Space Waifu series (Academy, Fantasy, Flat Justice) for the shot'em'all genre by example. You can just want to play them in place of a regular, and probably more challenging or better done, version because it's still as fun and entertaining ; and after all it's why we play, whatever the game, to be entertained in an enjoyable way.