What Games Design lessons can you teach me?

anne O'nymous

I'm not grumpy, I'm just coded that way.
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I would not say Ebert was an "absolutist", even if his axiom "Games can never be art" is.
I Don't think I targeted him more than his statement itself ; if I did, it was an error. I don't find him moderate, but neither absolutist globally speaking.


I think he was more skeptical about video games as an art form than anything, in a bit of a pessmistic perspective. It's more or less the impression I have but maybe I'm wrong.
He stand on the same side than you, so you probably tend to interpret what he said accordingly to your own opinion. This while he stand on the opposite side than me, what surely make me exaggerate his intent. Fucking psychological biases, they are everywhere.


In the end games being not art themselves and a distraction, doesn't mean they aren't absolute fantastic piece of cultural manifestion, maybe the most sophisticated ever created. But right now I just can't make games being art stricto sensu, feels like a complete disgrâce for those genius and tormented brains.
It happen that video games are Painting, with the loading screens, main menu screen, and all. They are Cinema, with the cutscenes. By themselves they also are Performance, as in interactive art. They also have Music, and a, more or less interactive, story with dialog, what make them also look on the side of Literature.
They are the sum of five of the seven arts. Not that this make them art, but it raise questions.

If you take Picasso for the screens, Balzac for the story and dialogs, Kurosawa for the cutscenes, and Mozart for the music (and a time traveling machine to have them). What do you get ? Each screen and cutscene will be a piece of art, served by the piece of art that the music will be. And all this will exist to serve the piece of art that will be the story.
That doesn't mean that the result will also be one, but should we deny their status to the individual parts ? After all, they come from brains that are genius and tormented enough.

Look at any ceremony regarding Cinema. They don't limit to the movies as a whole. The scenarist can be an artist, and the movie something deceiving. The filmmaker can be a genius who's movie have been killed by the comedians. And so on. The profession don't look at its art simply as a unique piece, but also as the sum of different talents that, for some of them, come from the other arts.
But at the end, will come the moment where the public will know what movie deserve to be seen as a piece of art itself, either because it was the best sum of pieces of art, or the best compromise between all the competences needed.
And, as implied above, in their making process video games aren't different. What, once again, don't mean that video games are necessarily arts. Just that, at one time in the future, the question will need to have a more "serious" (because looking at more than just the wholeness) answer than Ebert's one.

This said, I agree with you, this time is not come yet. It's our children that will have to find it, not us. But like there's amazing painters and writers who started by some collaboration with obscure magazines, while the next Mozart (I exaggerate, I know) is actually writing song for advertisements, there's some future artists that are now working in the video game industry.


I also don't think video games trying to be foremost a passive cinematic experience to be interesting, more or less one of today trend.
But what about the opposite, movies trying to be a more interactive experience ? It sound interesting for me, but yet it have to be done by an artist at first, in order to be done well.
3D movies aren't something new. The first one I heard about in my life time was in the 80's, some horror movies on the TV. But it's only when Avatar came, with its visual delight, that it became more than anecdotal. Simply because suddenly it revealed its whole potential.
One day, the same will happen with artistic video games ;)


I will try Mass Effect trilogy, it's long due.
Honestly you can pass. The first was amazing, the second less, and the third... I almost regret having played it. To win it, you'll need to use tricks in order to pass the online mandatory part, since there's surely nothing on the other side nowadays ; perhaps not with the remake. All this to have giant final battle, followed by an anti-climatic end (the "you made it, dot." kind), while being lectured if you don't choose the outcome they expected.
It's like reading a thriller started by Tolstoy, who would somehow pass the pen to Mao, and would have as very last sentences : "The culprit is him ! Why have you chose Capitalism, communism is the only possible way."
Or, for readers less interested by Literature, it's the final of Game of Thrones. But instead of going back to the Wall, John Snow will look at you in the eyes and explain you why the North deserved to be the only winner.
 

Deleted member 1121028

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If a collection of trees doesn't make a forest, I don't deny the trees to exist. I wholesomely agree gaming industry has an insane amount of talented artists gravitating toward it, with no shortage in sight.

Some individual award (when possible) that honor the most talented, and bring those individualities a bit more under the light (and not always the same game designers) could be great. It already exists in some sort but still rather confined under artist's circles. That said, bringing this to the public eyes via today ruins of gaming press and game's critics... I'm not sure they have the capacity to produces anything else than first hand embarrassment for public and artists alike. Quite a sad state of affairs.

3D movies aren't interactive and still a passive experience. It's a change in visual representation but that change is not a fundamental one. The spectator is still not a part of the film itself. And if it's not purely a gimmick, then why not?

Gonna do ME trilogy anyway, just for the sake of it, as it often referenced here and there.
But yeah from the sound of it, that doesn't look really good lol.
 
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rawmeatgames

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May 7, 2020
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Hi there folks! OP here. Thanks to those of you so far who've tried to tackle my initial query.

If anyone who hasn't answered has any advice or words of wisdom about games design for porn experiences (especially examples of good/bad design) i'd still love to hear from you.

I can see the topic has managed to shift a bit towards philosophy on what counts as a game / can games be considered art. If you are interested in this I can recommend checking out Ludwig Wittgenstein. He is a bit of a titan in the field of philosophy of language (or he was I should say), and posed this very question trying to come to the grips with what we mean when we actually talk about the 'meaning' of words. Interesting stuff. At the same time I was hoping to avoid this kind of discussion hurdle when I posed the initial query.

Hopefully I can gently nudge us back towards discussing good and bad design decisions developers have made in previous adult titles.
 

DuniX

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If anyone who hasn't answered has any advice or words of wisdom about games design for porn experiences (especially examples of good/bad design) i'd still love to hear from you.
You probably have more experience in game development and 3d rendering than anyone here.
We should be asking you questions, not the other way around.

The only experience this community can be argued to have is writing stories that integrate with porn, but again that is highly debatable.
We are all just a bunch of amateurs here.
 

Deleted member 1121028

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checking out Ludwig Wittgenstein
"Sweetheart, stop taking cans out of the recycling bin, it's not a game."
"But why Dad?"
"Listen carefully little demon"

zzz.jpeg

Hopefully I can gently nudge us back towards discussing good and bad design decisions developers have made in previous adult titles.
More serioulsy (or not), I don't think there is much terrible game design ideas per se, but more likely they ('re gonna) fail due to lack of expertise. Sure lot of games gonna abuse the grindy part and so on, but doesn't make a bit of grind bad, just a poor execution.

Everything we've seen in the video games in general could (and should :unsure:) be salted with porn. Porn games are not different from any other games, everything fit if you can make it fit.

It's more discussion about opportunity costs imo. Five solid devs/artists doing different things and sailing in the same direction are gonna be a vastly different game from one man trying to ducktape his first game all together.

Most porn game are remembered for their porn/story part, barely for their gameplay/game design as they are mostly developped by amateurs. There is execption but on a large scale, porn games that put gameplay front & center struggle much more for the same reasons (possible I missed some jewels).

Developping a strong narrative structure as a way to keep the player engaged/involved may be a good idea (and player may be more indulgent on the design/gameplay part). And tropes never really mattered anywhere as long it's more or less well executed.

My 0.99 cts (50% off)
 
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Lewdpanda95

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Sep 9, 2018
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I think the most important thing especially in porn games besides the quality of the story is pacing. It is easy to bore your players if you don't switch up the tempo/intensity from time to time. Some games do it very well by adding free roam phases to give the player something else to do besides just reading text, which also helps digest the story. Other than that I don't think there is much you can do gamedesign-wise in a typical visual novel.

BADIK for example has additionally some minigames and fluff content in the free roam phases. They are not neccessary to advance the story and give the player agency of the pacing.

You can also expand this to genral storytelling obviously, to avoid keeping the story at the same tempo for too long, adding calm phases after intense ones. The goal is to keep the player engaged with your game.

Just my two cents (no discounts).