VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[Maccabbee]

Completely disagree here. The plot changes made characters act differently to what we have seen from them before. As a direct consequence of the plot changes. I lost all interest in Katie and Miru after this update because I felt like they were no longer quite the same characters that chapter 3 had presented.

Take Miru at the bar for example. Without any input from the player she went further than her character had gone before. She didn't just assist in the shakedown of the bar owner. She went above and beyond what Emilio and his goons would have done by threatening him the way she did. I don't think I need to provide any Katie example. Basically any conversation with her in chapter 4 shows the shift her character suffered.

Yeah, the update showed a different side of Miru - someone who could kill you in a heartbeat without emotion, then casually go back to happily slurping a smoothie as if nothing had happened.

I am wondering if Miru hooking up with William after he was released from prison is as simple/harmless as it seems. What if she was originally asked/tasked/hired to keep an eye on William, but later fell in love with him? Of course, we don't have the full back story yet (perhaps she repeatedly visited him in prison), but Miru waiting for Willi two years after meeting him for all of five minutes seems rather suspicious.

What about Katie do you think has changed? I think she has been very consistent. Willi constantly alluded to how Katie is in the original Chs 1 - 3. I think the difference in Ch 4 is that we she how she is through her actions, not just based on Willi's opinion.

What I look forward to with the whole Katie thing is the fork-in-the-road Ocean has set up with her character if Willi chooses to trust Katie and allow her to create blackmail material on him. Did Katie create that blackmail material as the ultimate test to prove that William has changed and can be trusted, or did she create it to screw him over when the opportunity arises?

If you didn't realize that Miru was some kind of serious criminal yakuza or ninja boss, you weren't paying attention, and not just to this new version of the story. She was always a criminal. The new chapter showed that they met in jail, and they got together later. She talks about building a network, and how her family settled things violently and permanently in the "old country" in the earlier chapters, even pre-new version. Yes, she is hot, and loving, and fun. Yes is extremely dangerous and amoral. To me, that makes her hotter.

I agree, she could be playing William, or could have been in the past, and it turned real along the way. I don't think so, but it's possible. MDS is enough of an explanation to me for them getting together.

I do think that she's helped toughen him up and schooled him a little in having a criminal mind. Prison also does that. He was in there for two years. That's going to seriously change a person, if they weren't a hardened criminal before that.

 

[John972]

I linked the mentioned picture a little higher in spoiler. In the NTR route, when Miru and Will are talking on the phone, Miru literally says: "I let him play with my tits for a bit". But you can see in the picture that it's not just tits, and that Miru is not completely honest. If this picture had been included in this dialogue, then everyone would have immediately known that Miru was lying. But Ocean doesn't want to immediately reveal Miru's cheating to the players, not even in the NTR route. When they talk, Miru is naked, and in my opinion, by this time she has already fucked the krayt guy, who is still in the apartment. Look at her eyes and body language in every picture, it gives it away. But maybe no one notices this, because everyone only reads Miru's body and the dialogue. This is mainly due to Ocean's visuals, since in almost every picture in the game the characters get a sharp and clear image, but the background is always blurry and not clear. This is what happens in these pictures, it's a bit dark, Miru's body is sharp and clear, but the background is usually blurry. However, if you give the picture a little brightness and sharpen the image a little, I think the answer is there. Miru is not alone in the apartment, and someone is sitting on the couch. And if this is true, then it's understandable why Miru says at the end of the scene: "I'm tired"...
And now don't judge me, because this is just my theory...

Spoiler

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You could be right but, equally, you could be completely wrong.

Because those renders never made the cut, no one other than Ocean knows what dialogue he planned to go with them. For all we know, Ocean planned to have Miru tell William over the phone exactly what happened with the Krayt guy as shown in the deleted renders, but he toned the conversation down and deleted the renders instead.

The whole Ch 4 scene with Miru telling William she had sexy time with the Krayt guy is conditional upon Miru and William agreeing earlier (in the Ch 3 bathroom NTR scene) that Miru can fool around with other guys in their open relationship. That condition is hard-coded in the script.

There are also a couple of (so-far) unused variables Ocean created in the Ch 3 bathroom NTR scene - one variable for Willi/Miru agreeing to always ask each other for permission whenever they want to fool around with someone else, and another variable for Willi/Miru agreeing to only ask each other for permission if the fooling around were to involve sexual intercourse.

 

[John972]

If you didn't realize that Miru was some kind of serious criminal yakuza or ninja boss, you weren't paying attention, and not just to this new version of the story. She was always a criminal. The new chapter showed that they met in jail, and they got together later. She talks about building a network, and how her family settled things violently and permanently in the "old country" in the earlier chapters, even pre-new version. Yes, she is hot, and loving, and fun. Yes is extremely dangerous and amoral. To me, that makes her hotter.

I agree, she could be playing William, or could have been in the past, and it turned real along the way. I don't think so, but it's possible. MDS is enough of an explanation to me for them getting together.

I do think that she's helped toughen him up and schooled him a little in having a criminal mind. Prison also does that. He was in there for two years. That's going to seriously change a person, if they weren't a hardened criminal before that.

Yes, she has an acknowledged criminal background and a seriously dangerous skillset, but (other than her beating up Daphne) we were only shown Miru using her charm and diplomatic skills to manipulate people or gain information by the end of Ch 3. Even her fight against Leia was measured and only taken to its conclusion with permission from Willi.

Then, there is the unanswered question on why Miru chose to turn her back on her family - the ones that settle things violently and permanently in the "old country."

There is a big difference between having such a dangerous skillset and actually using those skills to harm/kill people. Ch 4 confirmed that Miru will use them.

 

[LHDLLB]

Yes, she has an acknowledged criminal background and a seriously dangerous skillset, but (other than her beating up Daphne) we were only shown Miru using her charm and diplomatic skills to manipulate people or gain information by the end of Ch 3. Even her fight against Leia was measured and only taken to its conclusion with permission from Willi.

Then, there is the unanswered question on why Miru chose to turn her back on her family - the ones that settle things violently and permanently in the "old country."

There is a big difference between having such a dangerous skillset and actually using those skills to harm/kill people. Ch 4 confirmed that Miru will use them.

Are we completly sure she has turn her back to her family? She has communication with her sister at least and had semilegal or ilegal bunisess in the city she lived with William, who is to say that it was not related in some form to her family? We simply don't know. We have some speculation but all of that can be dissmissed in the next update, as solid facts we have very little.

Yeah, the update showed a different side of Miru - someone who could kill you in a heartbeat without emotion, then casually go back to happily slurping a smoothie as if nothing had happened.

I am wondering if Miru hooking up with William after he was released from prison is as simple/harmless as it seems. What if she was originally asked/tasked/hired to keep an eye on William, but later fell in love with him? Of course, we don't have the full back story yet (perhaps she repeatedly visited him in prison), but Miru waiting for Willi two years after meeting him for all of five minutes seems rather suspicious.

What about Katie do you think has changed? I think she has been very consistent. Willi constantly alluded to how Katie is in the original Chs 1 - 3. I think the difference in Ch 4 is that we she how she is through her actions, not just based on Willi's opinion.

What I look forward to with the whole Katie thing is the fork-in-the-road Ocean has set up with her character if Willi chooses to trust Katie and allow her to create blackmail material on him. Did Katie create that blackmail material as the ultimate test to prove that William has changed and can be trusted, or did she create it to screw him over when the opportunity arises?

I think that Katie feeling of being left out is a bit dismissed, better said, as William would have a good reason to avoid Katie, as Dr.TSoni pointed out. I also think the bullying dosen't work as well but that is beside the point. I agree that Katie this update showed a more manipulative side of Katie that was only allued to by William but not agaist know information.

About the repercursions of the photos, I don't think it will ever get used.

 

[Turret]

Then, there is the unanswered question on why Miru chose to turn her back on her family - the ones that settle things violently and permanently in the "old country."
There is a big difference between having such a dangerous skillset and actually using those skills to harm/kill people. Ch 4 confirmed that Miru will use them.

Who says Miru has turned her back on her family? She might live outside Japan, but that does not mean that she has cut the ties to her Gumi. I think it highly likely that Miru was sent away after a especially violent "cleaning up" to protect her and wait until grass grows over it.
I think a lot of players are not aware what a weird place the Yakuza takes in japanese society. The various Gumis(families) are dangerous criminals, but try to keep to some honour codex and civil outside exterior. The Yakuza has public offices(!) and a magazine they publish. They are not as much in the shadows as comparable criminal organisations are in other countries.
Due to this, the Yakuza is very interested to keep their image as businessmen in "special" enterprises intact. As such, openly visible violence, even more deadly violence when settling scores or family feuds, is very rare.

I theorise Miru was once part of such a rare event and the winning Gumi was certaintly interested to calm the waters again and quickly. So Miru and others were spread out over Japan and foreign lands to protect them and keep them out of police focus.

 

[longdong4005]

Technically, it shouldn't be possible anymore.
Could Ayua be descended from Dylan's brothers?

Ayua said her family has their own martial arts and the only way for outsiders to learn it is by marrying into the family.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Ayua said her family has their own martial arts and the only way for outsiders to learn it is by marrying into the family.

It's true, but at the moment the Zane family structure is at the very least confusing.

 

[Turret]

It's true, but at the moment the Zane family structure is at the very least confusing.

The Zane family now is a big, fat sign of an abyssal rewrite, licking Patreon´s boots, because if the Zane family were still a normal family (no matter with or without the incest) Dylan/Helen the parents, Willi, Leia, Kati the kids, Scarlett, Joe, Kat, Lukas and Co. the family branches, Ayua, her siblings and cousins the kids of Willi, Miru, Zoey, Leia and Kati everything would fit nicely.
But no, Ocean had to write complete rubbish for ch.4!

 

[LHDLLB]

The Zane family now is a big, fat sign of an abyssal rewrite, licking Patreon´s boots, because if the Zane family were still a normal family (no matter with or without the incest) Dylan/Helen the parents, Willi, Leia, Kati the kids, Scarlett, Joe, Kat, Lukas and Co. the family branches, Ayua, her siblings and cousins the kids of Willi, Miru, Zoey, Leia and Kati everything would fit nicely.
But no, Ocean had to write complete rubbish for ch.4!

My brother let it rest. I get you, you don't like the change, I don't love it either but it is what it is. Is time to move on.

 

[Turret]

My brother let it rest. I get you, you don't like the change, I don't love it either but it is what it is. Is time to move on.

Thanks, but I cannot in good conscience let it go just so! Taking out the "I" is easily understandable and no problem. But the "Mafia" and have I mentioned it "Mafia" rewrite was completely unneeded and crap all around! As I said, the Zane family left intact would eradicate 90% of the plotholes and logical failures along the way!
If it were possible to piss on a computer program I would do so on WIAB chapter 4 to show my contempt! Ocean will never again get support from me.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

The Zane family now is a big, fat sign of an abyssal rewrite, licking Patreon´s boots, because if the Zane family were still a normal family (no matter with or without the incest) Dylan/Helen the parents, Willi, Leia, Kati the kids, Scarlett, Joe, Kat, Lukas and Co. the family branches, Ayua, her siblings and cousins the kids of Willi, Miru, Zoey, Leia and Kati everything would fit nicely.
But no, Ocean had to write complete rubbish for ch.4!

I have more of a problem with the fact that Ocean seems to not want to decide whether these people feel affection for each other or whether they hate each other.

My brother let it rest. I get you, you don't like the change, I don't love it either but it is what it is. Is time to move on.

"If you don't know where you come from, you don't know where you're going"
You're probably right, but it's difficult

 

[KiryuKazuma095]

Thanks, but I cannot in good conscience let it go just so! Taking out the "I" is easily understandable and no problem. But the "Mafia" and have I mentioned it "Mafia" rewrite was completely unneeded and crap all around! As I said, the Zane family left intact would eradicate 90% of the plotholes and logical failures along the way!
If it were possible to piss on a computer program I would do so on WIAB chapter 4 to show my contempt! Ocean will never again get support from me.
View attachment 5044594

Well the "Mafia"/Crime element" in general was unneeded and writter in a way that makes 0 sense

 

[Maccabbee]

Yes, she has an acknowledged criminal background and a seriously dangerous skillset, but (other than her beating up Daphne) we were only shown Miru using her charm and diplomatic skills to manipulate people or gain information by the end of Ch 3. Even her fight against Leia was measured and only taken to its conclusion with permission from Willi.

Then, there is the unanswered question on why Miru chose to turn her back on her family - the ones that settle things violently and permanently in the "old country."

There is a big difference between having such a dangerous skillset and actually using those skills to harm/kill people. Ch 4 confirmed that Miru will use them.

Are we completly sure she has turn her back to her family? She has communication with her sister at least and had semilegal or ilegal bunisess in the city she lived with William, who is to say that it was not related in some form to her family? We simply don't know. We have some speculation but all of that can be dissmissed in the next update, as solid facts we have very little.

I think that Katie feeling of being left out is a bit dismissed, better said, as William would have a good reason to avoid Katie, as Dr.TSoni pointed out. I also think the bullying dosen't work as well but that is beside the point. I agree that Katie this update showed a more manipulative side of Katie that was only allued to by William but not agaist know information.

About the repercursions of the photos, I don't think it will ever get used.

There's no hint that she's not still working for her family. She still travels back and forth to them, she still does missions (I sort of remember a conversation mentioning that).

As far as her behavior, we've only seen her at home and on a sort of vacation to meet her boyfriend's family. We have never seen her "at work" and have no idea what sort of criminal mischief she gets up to, other than it brings in their real money (gym trainers don't make the kind of money that supports that apartment). So much so, that starting fresh, she's okay paying over $5000 rent per month with nothing lined up.

 

[LHDLLB]

I have more of a problem with the fact that Ocean seems to not want to decide whether these people feel affection for each other or whether they hate each other.


"If you don't know where you come from, you don't know where you're going"
You're probably right, but it's difficult

I really agree with the first part. It worked better when they all were family, now it is just all over the place. Ocean still wants to hold to some elements of the story, the taboo of Leia, Katie and Kat and in someway the Zanes still worked as a family but he just dosen't can call it that. He still has time to make those things work, but I think he should move away from those thinhs too.

Yeah, I am trilled either but I am seeing as a soft reboot, almost like a new chapther 1.

 

[Maccabbee]

I have more of a problem with the fact that Ocean seems to not want to decide whether these people feel affection for each other or whether they hate each other.


"If you don't know where you come from, you don't know where you're going"
You're probably right, but it's difficult

I really agree with the first part. It worked better when they all were family, now it is just all over the place. Ocean still wants to hold to some elements of the story, the taboo of Leia, Katie and Kat and in someway the Zanes still worked as a family but he just dosen't can call it that. He still has time to make those things work, but I think he should move away from those thinhs too.

Yeah, I am trilled either but I am seeing as a soft reboot, almost like a new chapther 1.

Mafia or not, that's the definition of dysfunctional families. You love them and hate them all at the same time. You're getting too hung up on definitions.

Theon Greyjoy in GoT loved the Starks as family, but also resented them for keeping him as a hostage. He respected the Starks as better than his family, and loved the new generation as his brothers and sisters. Heck, he was treated better than Jon Snow. His family still turned him against them when they became involved again. Theon hated himself for what he did, both to the Starks and even the peasants.

This isn't much different. Will and Leia and Katie still think of each other both as siblings (without any real relationship, mind you), and since they're not really siblings, and know it, they still get hot for each other more easily. It's a double whammy.

William is more loyal to the Zanes, I think, because he hasn't had any other options all his life. Leia was the same, until her fugitive uncle showed up after William left, and helped her recover. She now has outside family. Where will her loyalties be? We don't know. She's still alive and considered a Zane in SG, but who knows what the next release of SG will do.

 

[RNasc4444]

What about Katie do you think has changed? I think she has been very consistent. Willi constantly alluded to how Katie is in the original Chs 1 - 3. I think the difference in Ch 4 is that we she how she is through her actions, not just based on Willi's opinion.

All interactions with Katie in the new chapter felt off to me but I couldn't pinpoint why. I assumed it was because it was tied closely to the mafia plot I don't like. But when I installed alain's mod and was comparing script it dawned on me why it all felt off. Their dynamic just doesn't work anymore.

It's clear to anyone with half a brain that Ocean tried to replace the sibling taboo, which feels natural to all of us because incest is not socially acceptable, with a manufactured taboo of random mafia rules that dictate that she can fuck Zoey but not William for some reason. So under this new dynamic their sibling bond doesn't exist anymore and the teasing between them doesn't work. In chapter 4 Katie is threatening to a level that feels mean spirited. It's like she's itching to have something over William. It feels like she's trying to take advantage of him, especially when the interest variable is activated.

It feels wrong to me. It makes more sense that that would hate each other and see themselves as adversaries. That's why I feel like her entire personality shifted. She isn't the same Katie from ch1-3.

If you didn't realize that Miru was some kind of serious criminal yakuza or ninja boss, you weren't paying attention, and not just to this new version of the story.

It's not that I didn't realize, it's that I didn't care what she was or what left behind before meeting William. Think about it. All we had seen from her in 1-3 makes her basically the absolute perfect girlfriend. She is smart, beatiful, kind, feisty, fun. She is also very socially aware and respectful of William's needs. Two examples are the snake and Daphne that is very clear she endures for his sake. We had never seen anything negative from her. Even the reason she was arrested, providing she was being truthful, was fairly innocuous.

All that we had seen from her up until that point stands in stark contrast with what we see at the bar. Do I think that is contrary to her character? No. I accept that she showed a side of her we hadn't seen yet but you can't deny that moment shifts her character greatly to a much darker side.

 

[LHDLLB]

Mafia or not, that's the definition of dysfunctional families. You love them and hate them all at the same time. You're getting too hung up on definitions.

Theon Greyjoy in GoT loved the Starks as family, but also resented them for keeping him as a hostage. He respected the Starks as better than his family, and loved the new generation as his brothers and sisters. Heck, he was treated better than Jon Snow. His family still turned him against them when they became involved again. Theon hated himself for what he did, both to the Starks and even the peasants.

This isn't much different. Will and Leia and Katie still think of each other both as siblings (without any real relationship, mind you), and since they're not really siblings, and know it, they still get hot for each other more easily. It's a double whammy.

William is more loyal to the Zanes, I think, because he hasn't had any other options all his life. Leia was the same, until her fugitive uncle showed up after William left, and helped her recover. She now has outside family. Where will her loyalties be? We don't know. She's still alive and considered a Zane in SG, but who knows what the next release of SG will do.

Oh, I agree. Mafia or not a disfuncional famíly is a disfuncional family. But the Zanes can't be a famíly can them ? Só any line of thought that put them as one dosen't work.

 

[RNasc4444]

My brother let it rest. I get you, you don't like the change, I don't love it either but it is what it is. Is time to move on.

I'll let it rest when I'm dead!

I have more of a problem with the fact that Ocean seems to not want to decide whether these people feel affection for each other or whether they hate each other.

YES! It's like Ocean is trying to show that they love each other but it somehow doesn't compute with the general context. I can't help but feel like this entire not-family should be at each others throats at all times! I fucking despise the bitch but at least Leia seems to be playing her part well. Her character so far seems by far to be the most consistent. Her, I understand.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Ocean still wants to hold to some elements of the story, the taboo of Leia, Katie and Kat

I think the "forbidden relationship" is an element that Ocean holds very dear.

Yeah, I am trilled either but I am seeing as a soft reboot, almost like a new chapther 1.

I hope so too

Mafia or not, that's the definition of dysfunctional families. You love them and hate them all at the same time. You're getting too hung up on definitions.

I think "mafia" could totally work, my problem is with the presentation of the characters
For example, Katie:
Moments like planning how to kill the spiders show nostalgic moments of when they played together as children. But then Katie's resentment is that Leia and William always excluded her, or that Leia even pointed a gun at her.
Or even Helen, all talk about her is about how she's this icy crime lady, her every move is deliberate and political, she dumped Willy without a second thought; but she's ready to start a war for William's affection.
Honestly the most consistent character is Leia, she feels affection for William because it was the two of them against the world, but she hates him because he abandoned her.

 

[Maccabbee]

...
It's not that I didn't realize, it's that I didn't care what she was or what left behind before meeting William. Think about it. All we had seen from her in 1-3 makes her basically the absolute perfect girlfriend. She is smart, beatiful, kind, feisty, fun. She is also very socially aware and respectful of William's needs. Two examples are the snake and Daphne that is very clear she endures for his sake. We had never seen anything negative from her. Even the reason she was arrested, providing she was being truthful, was fairly innocuous.

All that we had seen from her up until that point stands in stark contrast with what we see at the bar. Do I think that is contrary to her character? No. I accept that she showed a side of her we hadn't seen yet but you can't deny that moment shifts her character greatly to a much darker side.

This is what I don't get: what makes you think that she left anything behind? She's still a criminal, why do you think she's still not yakuza/ninja/triad/whatever? I think it's more likely that she's slowly grooming William for marriage into the family business, if he gets more capable. She's not just training him to fight.

Oh, I agree. Mafia or not a disfuncional famíly is a disfuncional family. But the Zanes can't be a famíly can them ? Só any line of thought that put them as one dosen't work.

Was what I wrote hard to understand? Even without blood relationships or adoption or anything else, they were all raised together, and are all family (especially by Patreon standards). Their own feelings are that they are family, with the emotional trappings of it, and the mental knowledge that they also are not. There's a level of dysfunction there that is next-level, even to me.

I think the "forbidden relationship" is an element that Ocean holds very dear.
...
For example, Katie:
Moments like planning how to kill the spiders show nostalgic moments of when they played together as children. But then Katie's resentment is that Leia and William always excluded her, or that Leia even pointed a gun at her.
Or even Helen, all talk about her is about how she's this icy crime lady, her every move is deliberate and political, she dumped Willy without a second thought; but she's ready to start a war for William's affection.
Honestly the most consistent character is Leia, she feels affection for William because it was the two of them against the world, but she hates him because he abandoned her.

Nobody is perfect, Ocean or the characters, and that makes them more realistic to me. Nobody is consistent in their behavior, even if the difference is behind closed doors.

Also, it's not clear that she dumped William at all. She visited the one time in prison and verbally assaulted him, and didn't come back or, apparently, tell anyone where he was. The fact that the rest of the family, as far as we know, didn't know tells me it's more likely that she was protecting him by breaking off contact. It is very easy for the Judges to kill someone in prison, with no ability to defend themselves in whatever trial he'll get now.

Dylan was an abusive fuck to the kids growing up, which is where a lot of their resentment towards each other comes from: he basically pitted them against each other like gladiators, and Helen didn't fully approve. That's also why they have issues with Dylan. That dynamic probably had something to do with they kids' rivalries. Will was always Helen's favorite, so the girls were probably competing against each other both for Helen's affection and William's as well, since Helen valued him so highly. Bad parenting abounds.