VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[LHDLLB]

I have more of a problem with the fact that Ocean seems to not want to decide whether these people feel affection for each other or whether they hate each other.


"If you don't know where you come from, you don't know where you're going"
You're probably right, but it's difficult

I really agree with the first part. It worked better when they all were family, now it is just all over the place. Ocean still wants to hold to some elements of the story, the taboo of Leia, Katie and Kat and in someway the Zanes still worked as a family but he just dosen't can call it that. He still has time to make those things work, but I think he should move away from those thinhs too.

Yeah, I am trilled either but I am seeing as a soft reboot, almost like a new chapther 1.

 

[Maccabbee]

I have more of a problem with the fact that Ocean seems to not want to decide whether these people feel affection for each other or whether they hate each other.


"If you don't know where you come from, you don't know where you're going"
You're probably right, but it's difficult

I really agree with the first part. It worked better when they all were family, now it is just all over the place. Ocean still wants to hold to some elements of the story, the taboo of Leia, Katie and Kat and in someway the Zanes still worked as a family but he just dosen't can call it that. He still has time to make those things work, but I think he should move away from those thinhs too.

Yeah, I am trilled either but I am seeing as a soft reboot, almost like a new chapther 1.

Mafia or not, that's the definition of dysfunctional families. You love them and hate them all at the same time. You're getting too hung up on definitions.

Theon Greyjoy in GoT loved the Starks as family, but also resented them for keeping him as a hostage. He respected the Starks as better than his family, and loved the new generation as his brothers and sisters. Heck, he was treated better than Jon Snow. His family still turned him against them when they became involved again. Theon hated himself for what he did, both to the Starks and even the peasants.

This isn't much different. Will and Leia and Katie still think of each other both as siblings (without any real relationship, mind you), and since they're not really siblings, and know it, they still get hot for each other more easily. It's a double whammy.

William is more loyal to the Zanes, I think, because he hasn't had any other options all his life. Leia was the same, until her fugitive uncle showed up after William left, and helped her recover. She now has outside family. Where will her loyalties be? We don't know. She's still alive and considered a Zane in SG, but who knows what the next release of SG will do.

 

[RNasc4444]

What about Katie do you think has changed? I think she has been very consistent. Willi constantly alluded to how Katie is in the original Chs 1 - 3. I think the difference in Ch 4 is that we she how she is through her actions, not just based on Willi's opinion.

All interactions with Katie in the new chapter felt off to me but I couldn't pinpoint why. I assumed it was because it was tied closely to the mafia plot I don't like. But when I installed alain's mod and was comparing script it dawned on me why it all felt off. Their dynamic just doesn't work anymore.

It's clear to anyone with half a brain that Ocean tried to replace the sibling taboo, which feels natural to all of us because incest is not socially acceptable, with a manufactured taboo of random mafia rules that dictate that she can fuck Zoey but not William for some reason. So under this new dynamic their sibling bond doesn't exist anymore and the teasing between them doesn't work. In chapter 4 Katie is threatening to a level that feels mean spirited. It's like she's itching to have something over William. It feels like she's trying to take advantage of him, especially when the interest variable is activated.

It feels wrong to me. It makes more sense that that would hate each other and see themselves as adversaries. That's why I feel like her entire personality shifted. She isn't the same Katie from ch1-3.

If you didn't realize that Miru was some kind of serious criminal yakuza or ninja boss, you weren't paying attention, and not just to this new version of the story.

It's not that I didn't realize, it's that I didn't care what she was or what left behind before meeting William. Think about it. All we had seen from her in 1-3 makes her basically the absolute perfect girlfriend. She is smart, beatiful, kind, feisty, fun. She is also very socially aware and respectful of William's needs. Two examples are the snake and Daphne that is very clear she endures for his sake. We had never seen anything negative from her. Even the reason she was arrested, providing she was being truthful, was fairly innocuous.

All that we had seen from her up until that point stands in stark contrast with what we see at the bar. Do I think that is contrary to her character? No. I accept that she showed a side of her we hadn't seen yet but you can't deny that moment shifts her character greatly to a much darker side.

 

[LHDLLB]

Mafia or not, that's the definition of dysfunctional families. You love them and hate them all at the same time. You're getting too hung up on definitions.

Theon Greyjoy in GoT loved the Starks as family, but also resented them for keeping him as a hostage. He respected the Starks as better than his family, and loved the new generation as his brothers and sisters. Heck, he was treated better than Jon Snow. His family still turned him against them when they became involved again. Theon hated himself for what he did, both to the Starks and even the peasants.

This isn't much different. Will and Leia and Katie still think of each other both as siblings (without any real relationship, mind you), and since they're not really siblings, and know it, they still get hot for each other more easily. It's a double whammy.

William is more loyal to the Zanes, I think, because he hasn't had any other options all his life. Leia was the same, until her fugitive uncle showed up after William left, and helped her recover. She now has outside family. Where will her loyalties be? We don't know. She's still alive and considered a Zane in SG, but who knows what the next release of SG will do.

Oh, I agree. Mafia or not a disfuncional famíly is a disfuncional family. But the Zanes can't be a famíly can them ? Só any line of thought that put them as one dosen't work.

 

[RNasc4444]

My brother let it rest. I get you, you don't like the change, I don't love it either but it is what it is. Is time to move on.

I'll let it rest when I'm dead!

I have more of a problem with the fact that Ocean seems to not want to decide whether these people feel affection for each other or whether they hate each other.

YES! It's like Ocean is trying to show that they love each other but it somehow doesn't compute with the general context. I can't help but feel like this entire not-family should be at each others throats at all times! I fucking despise the bitch but at least Leia seems to be playing her part well. Her character so far seems by far to be the most consistent. Her, I understand.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Ocean still wants to hold to some elements of the story, the taboo of Leia, Katie and Kat

I think the "forbidden relationship" is an element that Ocean holds very dear.

Yeah, I am trilled either but I am seeing as a soft reboot, almost like a new chapther 1.

I hope so too

Mafia or not, that's the definition of dysfunctional families. You love them and hate them all at the same time. You're getting too hung up on definitions.

I think "mafia" could totally work, my problem is with the presentation of the characters
For example, Katie:
Moments like planning how to kill the spiders show nostalgic moments of when they played together as children. But then Katie's resentment is that Leia and William always excluded her, or that Leia even pointed a gun at her.
Or even Helen, all talk about her is about how she's this icy crime lady, her every move is deliberate and political, she dumped Willy without a second thought; but she's ready to start a war for William's affection.
Honestly the most consistent character is Leia, she feels affection for William because it was the two of them against the world, but she hates him because he abandoned her.

 

[Maccabbee]

...
It's not that I didn't realize, it's that I didn't care what she was or what left behind before meeting William. Think about it. All we had seen from her in 1-3 makes her basically the absolute perfect girlfriend. She is smart, beatiful, kind, feisty, fun. She is also very socially aware and respectful of William's needs. Two examples are the snake and Daphne that is very clear she endures for his sake. We had never seen anything negative from her. Even the reason she was arrested, providing she was being truthful, was fairly innocuous.

All that we had seen from her up until that point stands in stark contrast with what we see at the bar. Do I think that is contrary to her character? No. I accept that she showed a side of her we hadn't seen yet but you can't deny that moment shifts her character greatly to a much darker side.

This is what I don't get: what makes you think that she left anything behind? She's still a criminal, why do you think she's still not yakuza/ninja/triad/whatever? I think it's more likely that she's slowly grooming William for marriage into the family business, if he gets more capable. She's not just training him to fight.

Oh, I agree. Mafia or not a disfuncional famíly is a disfuncional family. But the Zanes can't be a famíly can them ? Só any line of thought that put them as one dosen't work.

Was what I wrote hard to understand? Even without blood relationships or adoption or anything else, they were all raised together, and are all family (especially by Patreon standards). Their own feelings are that they are family, with the emotional trappings of it, and the mental knowledge that they also are not. There's a level of dysfunction there that is next-level, even to me.

I think the "forbidden relationship" is an element that Ocean holds very dear.
...
For example, Katie:
Moments like planning how to kill the spiders show nostalgic moments of when they played together as children. But then Katie's resentment is that Leia and William always excluded her, or that Leia even pointed a gun at her.
Or even Helen, all talk about her is about how she's this icy crime lady, her every move is deliberate and political, she dumped Willy without a second thought; but she's ready to start a war for William's affection.
Honestly the most consistent character is Leia, she feels affection for William because it was the two of them against the world, but she hates him because he abandoned her.

Nobody is perfect, Ocean or the characters, and that makes them more realistic to me. Nobody is consistent in their behavior, even if the difference is behind closed doors.

Also, it's not clear that she dumped William at all. She visited the one time in prison and verbally assaulted him, and didn't come back or, apparently, tell anyone where he was. The fact that the rest of the family, as far as we know, didn't know tells me it's more likely that she was protecting him by breaking off contact. It is very easy for the Judges to kill someone in prison, with no ability to defend themselves in whatever trial he'll get now.

Dylan was an abusive fuck to the kids growing up, which is where a lot of their resentment towards each other comes from: he basically pitted them against each other like gladiators, and Helen didn't fully approve. That's also why they have issues with Dylan. That dynamic probably had something to do with they kids' rivalries. Will was always Helen's favorite, so the girls were probably competing against each other both for Helen's affection and William's as well, since Helen valued him so highly. Bad parenting abounds.

 

[RNasc4444]

This is what I don't get: what makes you think that she left anything behind? She's still a criminal, why do you think she's still not yakuza/ninja/triad/whatever? I think it's more likely that she's slowly grooming William for marriage into the family business, if he gets more capable. She's not just training him to fight.

Because you're making assumptions based on what you saw in ch4 and basically rewriting everything in your head to fit that new narrative. If you take only ch1-3 into account there is nothing that points to her being a criminal. For all we know her entire background was retconned to fit the mafia shitshow.

 

[Maccabbee]

Because you're making assumptions based on what you saw in ch4 and basically rewriting everything in your head to fit that new narrative. If you take only ch1-3 into account there is nothing that points to her being a criminal. For all we know her entire background was retconned to fit the mafia shitshow.

That's not true at all, but we also weren't seeing their day-to-day life, just them fucking and playing a little. There definitely were discussions about her criminal activities where they were at least implied heavily. I played recently, but I've played four other games since then, so I will need to go back and play it again. The criminal stuff has always been in Ch1-3.

 

[RNasc4444]

Was what I wrote hard to understand? Even without blood relationships or adoption or anything else, they were all raised together, and are all family (especially by Patreon standards). Their own feelings are that they are family, with the emotional trappings of it, and the mental knowledge that they also are not. There's a level of dysfunction there that is next-level, even to me.

Nothing feels more like a loving family than being raised by those who killed or were at least involved in the slaughter of all your relatives. Whose heart would not be overflowing with love for these people?

William truly is a one of a kind specimen. If it were me, there would be nothing but hatred and an overwhelming need for revenge to be exacted upon every single one of the people connected to the murder of my family. But I'm weird that way.

 

[Maccabbee]

Nothing feels more like a loving family than being raised by those who killed or were at least involved in the slaughter of all your relatives. Whose heart would not be overflowing with love for these people?

William truly is a one of a kind specimen. If it were me, there would be nothing but hatred and an overwhelming need for revenge to be exacted upon every single one of the people connected to the murder of my family. But I'm weird that way.

You've never lived it, so you don't know shit about it. Also, why do you assume the Zanes did it or were involved. It's far more likely that the Grimaldi and Pedersoli families were allies, and were wiped out by the other families. The Zanes kept the kids alive and raised them. That bond is for over a decade. That's what is real. I doubt the kids even remembered their own families.

Leia has now met and been involved with her uncle, which potentially changes her dynamic with the Zanes. He's probably how we're going to get more information about that backstory, either directly, through Leia, or because of him the Zanes will spill the deets.

 

[Maviarab]

I agree that Katie this update showed a more manipulative side of Katie that was only allued to by William but not agaist know information.

Nothing that was not there in the OG. This should ne nothing new to people who are old school around here, her character has not changed at all.

Now think what she will be like if you trigger the Katie War variable....

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Nobody is perfect, Ocean or the characters, and that makes them more realistic to me. Nobody is consistent in their behavior, even if the difference is behind closed doors.

It works with Leia, the others have too much of a jump

 

[RNasc4444]

You've never lived it, so you don't know shit about it. Also, why do you assume the Zanes did it or were involved. It's far more likely that the Grimaldi and Pedersoli families were allies, and were wiped out by the other families. The Zanes kept the kids alive and raised them. That bond is for over a decade. That's what is real. I doubt the kids even remembered their own families.

Leia has now met and been involved with her uncle, which potentially changes her dynamic with the Zanes. He's probably how we're going to get more information about that backstory, either directly, through Leia, or because of him the Zanes will spill the deets.

Your perspective is alien to me. If the Zanes were truly allies, if they gave a single fuck about William and Leia they wouldn't have done the bidding of the monsters who killed their families. They would have "disappeared" both children. They would have made sure they grew up safe away from all this mess instead of being obedient little bitches and raised the kids as "tributes" or whatever nonsense Ocean invented.

The Zanes are not the good guys. They are despicable, evil, lowlife criminal trash that belong in prison or preferably the morgue.

I don't understand why you keep romanticizing this criminal enterprise. Maybe the porn brain is getting to you.

 

[Maccabbee]

Your perspective is alien to me. If the Zanes were truly allies, if they gave a single fuck about William and Leia they wouldn't have done the bidding of the monsters who killed their families. They would have "disappeared" both children. They would have made sure they grew up safe away from all this mess instead of being obedient little bitches and raised the kids as "tributes" or whatever nonsense Ocean invented.

The Zanes are not the good guys. They are despicable, evil, lowlife criminal trash that belong in prison or preferably the morgue.

I don't understand why you keep romanticizing this criminal enterprise. Maybe the porn brain is getting to you.

No, you're just a dumbfuck that can't get over their butthurt. This isn't about mafia. They raised the kids, period, since they were little until they were sixteen. That forms bonds whether you want it to or not. Them taking in the kids and raising them all those years (I assume more than 10) cost them time, money, and effort. They obviously care.

As far as the mob shit goes, the judges and the other families mentioned implies that there is some structure and rules to how this mob operates. We now see someone watching what's going on, some are Feds, cops, and one serious fuckin' bald guy with a gun. The Zanes are not free from oversight. They have rules they have to follow to keep the peace while they're weak.

I am not glorifying anything, so fuck that noise. We're discussing the story. This is the story of the game we're playing. Why the fuck are you playing if you hate the setting, that makes no sense, man? The whole family is fucked up beyond just the criminal stuff. They almost always are in these games.

Dylan, aside from being nominally a boss in a crime family, is a garage mechanic? WTF? He was also emotionally abusive, trying to toughen up the kids in cage matches.

Helen was so bad that the kids feared her, both emotionally and physically abusive, but also maternal and loving.

Uncle Joe is the boss of an Outlaw Motorcycle Club, and beat a rival into a coma.

Fred was growing and dealing drugs.

Scarlett wears those ridiculous hats. Oh, and she steals drugs and drug supplies from the hospital that she's a doctor in.

DUH! They're shitty people and criminals. The writing of the game is also supposed to make you care about them. People are complicated. Nobody is all shit or all good. Everyone has layers like an onion.

 

[byaaahh]

No, you're just a dumbfuck that can't get over their butthurt. This isn't about mafia. They raised the kids, period, since they were little until they were sixteen. That forms bonds whether you want it to or not. Them taking in the kids and raising them all those years (I assume more than 10) cost them time, money, and effort. They obviously care.

Which means Patreon/SS would consider them family, nullifying the entire point of changing the relationship in Ch4.

 

[RNasc4444]

Which means Patreon/SS would consider them family, nullifying the entire point of changing the relationship in Ch4.

Aaaaaaaaaand...back to square incest

 

[John972]

Because you're making assumptions based on what you saw in ch4 and basically rewriting everything in your head to fit that new narrative. If you take only ch1-3 into account there is nothing that points to her being a criminal. For all we know her entire background was retconned to fit the mafia shitshow.

The spirit of Schrödinger lives on strong in the OceanVerse...

There is Schrödinger's Helen in WIAB - a woman whose only apparent link to the criminal underworld is a sister married to underworld crime boss Joe Arano (Chs 1 - 3), but also a woman who's the matriarch of the Zane crime family (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Nightclub in WIAB - the Aesculapian Snake is a nightclub owned by Joey Arano (and managed by Leia Zane in his absence) (Chs 1 - 3), and also a nightclub owned by Leia Zane (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Lake in SG - the infamous lake that's simultaneously a short walk away and a six-hour car drive away.

 

[Maccabbee]

The spirit of Schrödinger lives on strong in the OceanVerse...

There is Schrödinger's Helen in WIAB - a woman whose only apparent link to the criminal underworld is a sister married to underworld crime boss Joe Arano (Chs 1 - 3), but also a woman who is the matriarch of the Zane crime family (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Nightclub in WIAB - the Aesculapian Snake is a nightclub owned by Joey Arano (and managed by Leia Zane in his absence) (Chs 1 - 3), and also a nightclub owned by Leia Zane (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Lake in SG - the infamous lake that's simultaneously a short walk away and a six-hour car drive away.

I agree with the second two, but where the fuck is the Zane Crime Family nothing to do with Helen Zane, married to the boss, Dylan Zane (married in name only at this point. That's probably why they can't divorce: she's running things for him, but can't do that if she leaves the marriage, since women can't run shit?

 

[byaaahh]

Aaaaaaaaaand...back to square incest

It's funny because no matter how much he changes the current dynamic, they will always be family. The change just substituted blood for step, which is also against ToS and created a cascading effect to the detriment of William's character.

Anything short of rewriting the beginning of the story and having William being raised by someone outside of the Zane family, the risk of SubscribeStar cracking down is always there.