VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[RNasc4444]

You've never lived it, so you don't know shit about it. Also, why do you assume the Zanes did it or were involved. It's far more likely that the Grimaldi and Pedersoli families were allies, and were wiped out by the other families. The Zanes kept the kids alive and raised them. That bond is for over a decade. That's what is real. I doubt the kids even remembered their own families.

Leia has now met and been involved with her uncle, which potentially changes her dynamic with the Zanes. He's probably how we're going to get more information about that backstory, either directly, through Leia, or because of him the Zanes will spill the deets.

Your perspective is alien to me. If the Zanes were truly allies, if they gave a single fuck about William and Leia they wouldn't have done the bidding of the monsters who killed their families. They would have "disappeared" both children. They would have made sure they grew up safe away from all this mess instead of being obedient little bitches and raised the kids as "tributes" or whatever nonsense Ocean invented.

The Zanes are not the good guys. They are despicable, evil, lowlife criminal trash that belong in prison or preferably the morgue.

I don't understand why you keep romanticizing this criminal enterprise. Maybe the porn brain is getting to you.

 

[Maccabbee]

Your perspective is alien to me. If the Zanes were truly allies, if they gave a single fuck about William and Leia they wouldn't have done the bidding of the monsters who killed their families. They would have "disappeared" both children. They would have made sure they grew up safe away from all this mess instead of being obedient little bitches and raised the kids as "tributes" or whatever nonsense Ocean invented.

The Zanes are not the good guys. They are despicable, evil, lowlife criminal trash that belong in prison or preferably the morgue.

I don't understand why you keep romanticizing this criminal enterprise. Maybe the porn brain is getting to you.

No, you're just a dumbfuck that can't get over their butthurt. This isn't about mafia. They raised the kids, period, since they were little until they were sixteen. That forms bonds whether you want it to or not. Them taking in the kids and raising them all those years (I assume more than 10) cost them time, money, and effort. They obviously care.

As far as the mob shit goes, the judges and the other families mentioned implies that there is some structure and rules to how this mob operates. We now see someone watching what's going on, some are Feds, cops, and one serious fuckin' bald guy with a gun. The Zanes are not free from oversight. They have rules they have to follow to keep the peace while they're weak.

I am not glorifying anything, so fuck that noise. We're discussing the story. This is the story of the game we're playing. Why the fuck are you playing if you hate the setting, that makes no sense, man? The whole family is fucked up beyond just the criminal stuff. They almost always are in these games.

Dylan, aside from being nominally a boss in a crime family, is a garage mechanic? WTF? He was also emotionally abusive, trying to toughen up the kids in cage matches.

Helen was so bad that the kids feared her, both emotionally and physically abusive, but also maternal and loving.

Uncle Joe is the boss of an Outlaw Motorcycle Club, and beat a rival into a coma.

Fred was growing and dealing drugs.

Scarlett wears those ridiculous hats. Oh, and she steals drugs and drug supplies from the hospital that she's a doctor in.

DUH! They're shitty people and criminals. The writing of the game is also supposed to make you care about them. People are complicated. Nobody is all shit or all good. Everyone has layers like an onion.

 

[byaaahh]

No, you're just a dumbfuck that can't get over their butthurt. This isn't about mafia. They raised the kids, period, since they were little until they were sixteen. That forms bonds whether you want it to or not. Them taking in the kids and raising them all those years (I assume more than 10) cost them time, money, and effort. They obviously care.

Which means Patreon/SS would consider them family, nullifying the entire point of changing the relationship in Ch4.

 

[RNasc4444]

Which means Patreon/SS would consider them family, nullifying the entire point of changing the relationship in Ch4.

Aaaaaaaaaand...back to square incest

 

[John972]

Because you're making assumptions based on what you saw in ch4 and basically rewriting everything in your head to fit that new narrative. If you take only ch1-3 into account there is nothing that points to her being a criminal. For all we know her entire background was retconned to fit the mafia shitshow.

The spirit of Schrödinger lives on strong in the OceanVerse...

There is Schrödinger's Helen in WIAB - a woman whose only apparent link to the criminal underworld is a sister married to underworld crime boss Joe Arano (Chs 1 - 3), but also a woman who's the matriarch of the Zane crime family (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Nightclub in WIAB - the Aesculapian Snake is a nightclub owned by Joey Arano (and managed by Leia Zane in his absence) (Chs 1 - 3), and also a nightclub owned by Leia Zane (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Lake in SG - the infamous lake that's simultaneously a short walk away and a six-hour car drive away.

 

[Maccabbee]

The spirit of Schrödinger lives on strong in the OceanVerse...

There is Schrödinger's Helen in WIAB - a woman whose only apparent link to the criminal underworld is a sister married to underworld crime boss Joe Arano (Chs 1 - 3), but also a woman who is the matriarch of the Zane crime family (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Nightclub in WIAB - the Aesculapian Snake is a nightclub owned by Joey Arano (and managed by Leia Zane in his absence) (Chs 1 - 3), and also a nightclub owned by Leia Zane (Ch 4).

There is Schrödinger's Lake in SG - the infamous lake that's simultaneously a short walk away and a six-hour car drive away.

I agree with the second two, but where the fuck is the Zane Crime Family nothing to do with Helen Zane, married to the boss, Dylan Zane (married in name only at this point. That's probably why they can't divorce: she's running things for him, but can't do that if she leaves the marriage, since women can't run shit?

 

[byaaahh]

Aaaaaaaaaand...back to square incest

It's funny because no matter how much he changes the current dynamic, they will always be family. The change just substituted blood for step, which is also against ToS and created a cascading effect to the detriment of William's character.

Anything short of rewriting the beginning of the story and having William being raised by someone outside of the Zane family, the risk of SubscribeStar cracking down is always there.

 

[RNasc4444]

I agree with the second two, but where the fuck is the Zane Crime Family nothing to do with Helen Zane, married to the boss, Dylan Zane (married in name only at this point. That's probably why they can't divorce: she's running things for him, but can't do that if she leaves the marriage, since women can't run shit?

I think you missed his point. The problem is...what the fuck are the Zanes running/doing at all that's connected to the Mafia? The only evidence we have of criminal activity and link to mob shit is through Uncle Joe and his illicit endeavours like the Club and the MC.

Wtf are the Zanes mixed up in? They have no security. No enforcers. No men that aren't Leia's. Apparently no capital either. As far as I can tell they own the house and a farm nearby. That's it

 

[RNasc4444]

It's funny because no matter how much he changes the current dynamic, they will always be family. The change just substituted blood for step, which is also against ToS and created a cascading effect to the detriment of William's character.

Anything short of rewriting the beginning of the story and having William being raised by someone outside of the Zane family, the risk of SubscribeStar cracking down is always there.

Yet I and many others are seen as the ones who can't let go. I asked for a complete fresh start and a story that made sense. Yet Ocean is so enthralled by this notion of "forbidden relationships" that all he did was replace "incest" for "mafia shit" with weird rules. And we still have a nonsensical narrative!!!

 

[John972]

I agree with the second two, but where the fuck is the Zane Crime Family nothing to do with Helen Zane, married to the boss, Dylan Zane (married in name only at this point. That's probably why they can't divorce: she's running things for him, but can't do that if she leaves the marriage, since women can't run shit?

Even in the Steam edition, in Chs 1 - 3 all the criminal enterprises managed by Leia belong to Joey Arano - that's stated implicitly in the dialogues. There is not one criminal enterprise linked directly to the Zanes. Yet, in Ch 4, the FBI talks about the Zane crime syndicate with Helen as the matriarch. The FBI also state that Leia owns the nightclub, which earlier chapters state is owned by Joey Arano.

Also, the FBI use the term "matriarch," which implies Helen is the head of the Zane family (crime or otherwise). If Dylan was in control, there would be no matriarch, just a patriarch. EDIT: My mistake. The term "matriarch" is never once used in the script.

PS - who are sisters Helen and Scarlet? I mean, what family were they born into? Are the Arano and Zane families now crime families because Dylan Zane and Joey Arano married into the mob?

 

[LHDLLB]

Was what I wrote hard to understand? Even without blood relationships or adoption or anything else, they were all raised together, and are all family (especially by Patreon standards). Their own feelings are that they are family, with the emotional trappings of it, and the mental knowledge that they also are not. There's a level of dysfunction there that is next-level, even to me.

Well english is not my native language but I think I understood you quite well. Ocean goes out of his way to inform the player they don't see each other as family, there is no family relationships whatsoever, not by blood, law or consideration. And this is the problem Ocean has to fix. He wants to tell a famíly drama with out the family part. How many times Katie said William is not her brother ? Or William said Helen is not his mother ? Growing together dosent make you family, there are a number of things that goes into that, Ocean wants to replace it with the mafia plot and it can work but then the story wants to change futher and he dosen't want to do that and the result is that things don't fit together

 

[Mortarion]

The Zane family now is a big, fat sign of an abyssal rewrite, licking Patreon´s boots, because if the Zane family were still a normal family (no matter with or without the incest) Dylan/Helen the parents, Willi, Leia, Kati the kids, Scarlett, Joe, Kat, Lukas and Co. the family branches, Ayua, her siblings and cousins the kids of Willi, Miru, Zoey, Leia and Kati everything would fit nicely.
But no, Ocean had to write complete rubbish for ch.4!

I get that one or another is not happy about the inevitable and absolutely needed change of relationships in the game, but you have two options, move on or deal with it - no offense meant.

Turret RNasc4444 and the others complaining about the changes. I have a question for you guys.

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.
Tell me. And pretend that your income is at stake...

It's always easy playing afterwards the smartass and yelling "I told you so..." or complain how shitty everything has become, but having a possible solution that also will not satisfy all users is not so easy.


Ocean had always a open ear for constructive critics, that can't be denied.

I'm actually writing on a Dm to Ocean in discord and tell him my opinion about the release and the the god-fucking-damit lewd scenes.
That fucking h-stuff... I can't stand it, the locker room scene between Bella and Nika in SG was waaaaaaaaaaaaay more arousal than that frigging chaining of animations stuff shown in this game.
Ocean is without question a great artist, and has a knack for weaving music and his visuals into something that works great, but he sucks hard when lewd comes into play, but somehow the former recipe will not work for this. He should play some old school AIF games from Goblinboy or others from this time, to see how a hardcore scene is written.

If the mentioned guys have the muse, write me a DM here, what could be done better in your opinion, what was a unlucky change and how it could be handled better, and I hand it over to him - but keep it polite, don't shoot the messenger

 

[Maccabbee]

I think you missed his point. The problem is...what the fuck are the Zanes running/doing at all that's connected to the Mafia? The only evidence we have of criminal activity and link to mob shit is through Uncle Joe and his illicit endeavours like the Club and the MC.

Wtf are the Zanes mixed up in? They have no security. No enforcers. No men that aren't Leia's. Apparently no capital either. As far as I can tell they own the house and a farm nearby. That's it

Yeah, if that was the point, I missed it completely. I also see that you missed everyone's responses for the past week about that last part. We are only seeing what the MC sees so far, and he hasn't gotten involved in the real businesses yet. Fred's farm is part of the Zane business, not Joe's, so the drugs were grown/made by Zanes, and distributed by Joe's businesses, maybe? Krayts used to be friendly, or at least at peace, with the Zanes and Joe, until something make Joe beat the Krayt boss into a coma, and a troublemaker stepped up in charge, that was explained. You also keep separating the Aranos from the Zanes, when they are all the same family.

Even in the Steam edition, in Chs 1 - 3 all the criminal enterprises managed by Leia belong to Joey Arano - that's stated implicitly in the dialogues. There is not one criminal enterprise linked directly to the Zanes. Yet, in Ch 4, the FBI talks about the Zane crime syndicate with Helen as the matriarch. The FBI also state that Leia owns the nightclub, which earlier chapters state is owned by Joey Arano.

Also, the FBI use the term "matriarch," which implies Helen is the head of the Zane family (crime or otherwise). If Dylan was in control, there would be no matriarch, just a patriarch.

PS - who are sisters Helen and Scarlet? I mean, what family were they born into? Are the Arano and Zane families now crime families because Dylan Zane and Joey Arano married into the mob?

John, if this is pure sarcasm then forgive me. If not, are you blind? This has been discussed ad nauseam already, and is clearly explained in-game. Scarlett and Helen are blood sisters, no idea what their maiden names were. Helen married into the Zane family and effectively took it over, because Dylan is a beta. A butch beta, but still. Scarlett the Doctor married her brother-in-law's (friend? cousin? partner?), Joe Arano, a Motorcycle Club boss, owner of a nightclub, criminal drug dealer, etc.. I haven't seen any explanation for the relationship between Joe and Dylan yet. Also, who the fuck is Fred to either family? A friend? An employee? Maybe Scarlett and Helen's brother? We don't know, right?

Well english is not my native language but I think I understood you quite well. Ocean goes out of his way to inform the player they don't see each other as family, there is no family relationships whatsoever, not by blood, law or consideration. And this is the problem Ocean has to fix. He wants to tell a famíly drama with out the family part. How many times Katie said William is not her brother ? Or William said Helen is not his mother ? Growing together dosent make you family, there are a number of things that goes into that, Ocean wants to replace it with the mafia plot and it can work but then the story wants to change futher and he dosen't want to do that and the result is that things don't fit together

I didn't see that at all. Ocean explains that outside the game, in forums and discord, but in-game Will still thinks of Helen as "mom" when he talks to Miru, but he's scared to call her that because he doesn't want to trigger her rage, which means that he used to call her that before he ran away. He still hates Dylan for the abusive treatment, but they hug it out (optionally) and still have a very father-son vibe. Maybe the kids have less of a family dynamic, but I found it the same as when they were complicated actual family. He certainly seems to think of Scarlett and Joe as an uncle and aunt, and Kata and Jacob as cousins, even if they never called each other that (even before the rework).

 

[byaaahh]

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.

Except the incest hasn't gone, he just substituted the blood relation for some pseudo-familial relation where they were all raised in the same house, by the same parental figures for 13+ years.

Now we are supposed to simultaneously believe they love each other like a family would, but they aren't really that close because Katie is above William/Leia in the hierarchy and them intermingling is frowned upon. Not to mention the family turned a blind eye to the ingrates bullying the blood relation with no punishment, or William not taking the girl he professed to love with him when he left. At least when they were related it was the rational choice as it would be forbidden and shameful.

 

[Miranha157]

My PC crashed.

I managed to fix it today. What's new? I heard from a friend that they made a mod to restore Ocean's censorship. Does anyone have the link?

 

[Maccabbee]

I get that one or another is not happy about the inevitable and absolutely needed change of relationships in the game, but you have two options, move on or deal with it - no offense meant.

Turret RNasc4444 and the others complaining about the changes. I have a question for you guys.

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.
Tell me. And pretend that your income is at stake...

It's always easy playing afterwards the smartass and yelling "I told you so..." or complain how shitty everything has become, but having a possible solution that also will not satisfy all users is not so easy.


Ocean had always a open ear for constructive critics, that can't be denied.

I'm actually writing on a Dm to Ocean in discord and tell him my opinion about the release and the the god-fucking-damit lewd scenes.
That fucking h-stuff... I can't stand it, the locker room scene between Bella and Nika in SG was waaaaaaaaaaaaay more arousal than that frigging chaining of animations stuff shown in this game.
Ocean is without question a great artist, and has a knack for weaving music and his visuals into something that works great, but he sucks hard when lewd comes into play, but somehow the former recipe will not work for this. He should play some old school AIF games from Goblinboy or others from this time, to see how a hardcore scene is written.

If the mentioned guys have the muse, write me a DM here, what could be done better in your opinion, what was a unlucky change and how it could be handled better, and I hand it over to him - but keep it polite, don't shoot the messenger

This is also in reply to the other stuff in my last post, but I'm not getting recursive here, the site is broken enough as is:

One of the things I love about Ocean's storytelling is that he doesn't spell everything out for us, treating us like idiots. He implies some things, and only exposes us to what the MC is actively seeing (mostly), and if we're lucky we get some exposition or flashbacks to fill in some needed gaps. We never know everything, and even that is filtered through unreliable narrators: the MC's memories and other characters' explanations.

Fortunately, that leaves us plenty of room for theorycrafting, which is the best part of this thread aside from Waifu wars. Unfortunately, nobody knows what's really going on, but thinks they do from their perceptions of the limited story so far.

 

[John972]

John, if this is pure sarcasm then forgive me. If not, are you blind? This has been discussed ad nauseam already, and is clearly explained in-game. Scarlett and Helen are blood sisters, no idea what their maiden names were. Helen married into the Zane family and effectively took it over, because Dylan is a beta. A butch beta, but still. Scarlett the Doctor married her brother-in-law's (friend? cousin? partner?), Joe Arano, a Motorcycle Club boss, owner of a nightclub, criminal drug dealer, etc.. I haven't seen any explanation for the relationship between Joe and Dylan yet. Also, who the fuck is Fred to either family? A friend? An employee? Maybe Scarlett and Helen's brother? We don't know, right?

No, it is not sarcasm and I am not sure what AVN you've been playing, I went through the dialogues in the Steam release with a fine-toothed comb (and also compared the Steam Chs 1 to 3 with the original Chs 1 - 3). Little has changed in Chs 1 - 3 other than the insertion of mafia references and the establishment of non-blood relationships.

I reiterate again: Chs 1 - 3 establish that Joe Arano owns the criminal enterprises we see in-game. Leia is managing them while Joe is in prison. Not one criminal enterprise is linked to the Zanes. If you think otherwise, post the dialogues that prove your point.

So far, Fred is simply a neighbor who allows his property to be used for the drug lab. That could change in the future, of course.

What about my questioning who Helen and Scarlet's birth family is did you not understand? Did I ever say Scarlett and Helen are not blood sisters? I simply put forth the possibility that Helen and Scarlet are mob daughters who married into the Zane and Arano families.

 

[byaaahh]

How I would have adjusted the story:

Keep Helen/Dylan/Kate as true Zanes
William and Leia remain twins, have the Zanes take them in much later (10-13)
William's trauma of losing his parents caused an unhealthy closeness to his twin, which results in him running away
When William returns, Leia is off the LI list
We go on to discover the depths of the criminal undertakings of the Zane family and the ladies of Wollust

There you go, no incest (even step) and the story could have progressed as was.

 

[X2JZcf]

How I would have adjusted the story:

Keep Helen/Dylan/Kate as true Zanes
William and Leia remain twins, have the Zanes take them in much later (10-13)
William's trauma of losing his parents caused an unhealthy closeness to his twin, which results in him running away
When William returns, Leia is off the LI list
We go on to discover the depths of the criminal undertakings of the Zane family and the ladies of Wollust

There you go, no incest (even step) and the story could have progressed as was.

Maybe making Leia adopted by the Arano family. No way Ocean would let her go as Li.

 

[RNasc4444]

My PC crashed.

I managed to fix it today. What's new? I heard from a friend that they made a mod to restore Ocean's censorship. Does anyone have the link?

Bem-vindo de volta!
Check the OP. Uncut Edition Mod. True incest can't really be restored since things changed too much but alain did the best with what he had. Check it out!