VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[LHDLLB]

Was what I wrote hard to understand? Even without blood relationships or adoption or anything else, they were all raised together, and are all family (especially by Patreon standards). Their own feelings are that they are family, with the emotional trappings of it, and the mental knowledge that they also are not. There's a level of dysfunction there that is next-level, even to me.

Well english is not my native language but I think I understood you quite well. Ocean goes out of his way to inform the player they don't see each other as family, there is no family relationships whatsoever, not by blood, law or consideration. And this is the problem Ocean has to fix. He wants to tell a famíly drama with out the family part. How many times Katie said William is not her brother ? Or William said Helen is not his mother ? Growing together dosent make you family, there are a number of things that goes into that, Ocean wants to replace it with the mafia plot and it can work but then the story wants to change futher and he dosen't want to do that and the result is that things don't fit together

 

[Mortarion]

The Zane family now is a big, fat sign of an abyssal rewrite, licking Patreon´s boots, because if the Zane family were still a normal family (no matter with or without the incest) Dylan/Helen the parents, Willi, Leia, Kati the kids, Scarlett, Joe, Kat, Lukas and Co. the family branches, Ayua, her siblings and cousins the kids of Willi, Miru, Zoey, Leia and Kati everything would fit nicely.
But no, Ocean had to write complete rubbish for ch.4!

I get that one or another is not happy about the inevitable and absolutely needed change of relationships in the game, but you have two options, move on or deal with it - no offense meant.

Turret RNasc4444 and the others complaining about the changes. I have a question for you guys.

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.
Tell me. And pretend that your income is at stake...

It's always easy playing afterwards the smartass and yelling "I told you so..." or complain how shitty everything has become, but having a possible solution that also will not satisfy all users is not so easy.


Ocean had always a open ear for constructive critics, that can't be denied.

I'm actually writing on a Dm to Ocean in discord and tell him my opinion about the release and the the god-fucking-damit lewd scenes.
That fucking h-stuff... I can't stand it, the locker room scene between Bella and Nika in SG was waaaaaaaaaaaaay more arousal than that frigging chaining of animations stuff shown in this game.
Ocean is without question a great artist, and has a knack for weaving music and his visuals into something that works great, but he sucks hard when lewd comes into play, but somehow the former recipe will not work for this. He should play some old school AIF games from Goblinboy or others from this time, to see how a hardcore scene is written.

If the mentioned guys have the muse, write me a DM here, what could be done better in your opinion, what was a unlucky change and how it could be handled better, and I hand it over to him - but keep it polite, don't shoot the messenger

 

[Maccabbee]

I think you missed his point. The problem is...what the fuck are the Zanes running/doing at all that's connected to the Mafia? The only evidence we have of criminal activity and link to mob shit is through Uncle Joe and his illicit endeavours like the Club and the MC.

Wtf are the Zanes mixed up in? They have no security. No enforcers. No men that aren't Leia's. Apparently no capital either. As far as I can tell they own the house and a farm nearby. That's it

Yeah, if that was the point, I missed it completely. I also see that you missed everyone's responses for the past week about that last part. We are only seeing what the MC sees so far, and he hasn't gotten involved in the real businesses yet. Fred's farm is part of the Zane business, not Joe's, so the drugs were grown/made by Zanes, and distributed by Joe's businesses, maybe? Krayts used to be friendly, or at least at peace, with the Zanes and Joe, until something make Joe beat the Krayt boss into a coma, and a troublemaker stepped up in charge, that was explained. You also keep separating the Aranos from the Zanes, when they are all the same family.

Even in the Steam edition, in Chs 1 - 3 all the criminal enterprises managed by Leia belong to Joey Arano - that's stated implicitly in the dialogues. There is not one criminal enterprise linked directly to the Zanes. Yet, in Ch 4, the FBI talks about the Zane crime syndicate with Helen as the matriarch. The FBI also state that Leia owns the nightclub, which earlier chapters state is owned by Joey Arano.

Also, the FBI use the term "matriarch," which implies Helen is the head of the Zane family (crime or otherwise). If Dylan was in control, there would be no matriarch, just a patriarch.

PS - who are sisters Helen and Scarlet? I mean, what family were they born into? Are the Arano and Zane families now crime families because Dylan Zane and Joey Arano married into the mob?

John, if this is pure sarcasm then forgive me. If not, are you blind? This has been discussed ad nauseam already, and is clearly explained in-game. Scarlett and Helen are blood sisters, no idea what their maiden names were. Helen married into the Zane family and effectively took it over, because Dylan is a beta. A butch beta, but still. Scarlett the Doctor married her brother-in-law's (friend? cousin? partner?), Joe Arano, a Motorcycle Club boss, owner of a nightclub, criminal drug dealer, etc.. I haven't seen any explanation for the relationship between Joe and Dylan yet. Also, who the fuck is Fred to either family? A friend? An employee? Maybe Scarlett and Helen's brother? We don't know, right?

Well english is not my native language but I think I understood you quite well. Ocean goes out of his way to inform the player they don't see each other as family, there is no family relationships whatsoever, not by blood, law or consideration. And this is the problem Ocean has to fix. He wants to tell a famíly drama with out the family part. How many times Katie said William is not her brother ? Or William said Helen is not his mother ? Growing together dosent make you family, there are a number of things that goes into that, Ocean wants to replace it with the mafia plot and it can work but then the story wants to change futher and he dosen't want to do that and the result is that things don't fit together

I didn't see that at all. Ocean explains that outside the game, in forums and discord, but in-game Will still thinks of Helen as "mom" when he talks to Miru, but he's scared to call her that because he doesn't want to trigger her rage, which means that he used to call her that before he ran away. He still hates Dylan for the abusive treatment, but they hug it out (optionally) and still have a very father-son vibe. Maybe the kids have less of a family dynamic, but I found it the same as when they were complicated actual family. He certainly seems to think of Scarlett and Joe as an uncle and aunt, and Kata and Jacob as cousins, even if they never called each other that (even before the rework).

 

[byaaahh]

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.

Except the incest hasn't gone, he just substituted the blood relation for some pseudo-familial relation where they were all raised in the same house, by the same parental figures for 13+ years.

Now we are supposed to simultaneously believe they love each other like a family would, but they aren't really that close because Katie is above William/Leia in the hierarchy and them intermingling is frowned upon. Not to mention the family turned a blind eye to the ingrates bullying the blood relation with no punishment, or William not taking the girl he professed to love with him when he left. At least when they were related it was the rational choice as it would be forbidden and shameful.

 

[Miranha157]

My PC crashed.

I managed to fix it today. What's new? I heard from a friend that they made a mod to restore Ocean's censorship. Does anyone have the link?

 

[Maccabbee]

I get that one or another is not happy about the inevitable and absolutely needed change of relationships in the game, but you have two options, move on or deal with it - no offense meant.

Turret RNasc4444 and the others complaining about the changes. I have a question for you guys.

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.
Tell me. And pretend that your income is at stake...

It's always easy playing afterwards the smartass and yelling "I told you so..." or complain how shitty everything has become, but having a possible solution that also will not satisfy all users is not so easy.


Ocean had always a open ear for constructive critics, that can't be denied.

I'm actually writing on a Dm to Ocean in discord and tell him my opinion about the release and the the god-fucking-damit lewd scenes.
That fucking h-stuff... I can't stand it, the locker room scene between Bella and Nika in SG was waaaaaaaaaaaaay more arousal than that frigging chaining of animations stuff shown in this game.
Ocean is without question a great artist, and has a knack for weaving music and his visuals into something that works great, but he sucks hard when lewd comes into play, but somehow the former recipe will not work for this. He should play some old school AIF games from Goblinboy or others from this time, to see how a hardcore scene is written.

If the mentioned guys have the muse, write me a DM here, what could be done better in your opinion, what was a unlucky change and how it could be handled better, and I hand it over to him - but keep it polite, don't shoot the messenger

This is also in reply to the other stuff in my last post, but I'm not getting recursive here, the site is broken enough as is:

One of the things I love about Ocean's storytelling is that he doesn't spell everything out for us, treating us like idiots. He implies some things, and only exposes us to what the MC is actively seeing (mostly), and if we're lucky we get some exposition or flashbacks to fill in some needed gaps. We never know everything, and even that is filtered through unreliable narrators: the MC's memories and other characters' explanations.

Fortunately, that leaves us plenty of room for theorycrafting, which is the best part of this thread aside from Waifu wars. Unfortunately, nobody knows what's really going on, but thinks they do from their perceptions of the limited story so far.

 

[John972]

John, if this is pure sarcasm then forgive me. If not, are you blind? This has been discussed ad nauseam already, and is clearly explained in-game. Scarlett and Helen are blood sisters, no idea what their maiden names were. Helen married into the Zane family and effectively took it over, because Dylan is a beta. A butch beta, but still. Scarlett the Doctor married her brother-in-law's (friend? cousin? partner?), Joe Arano, a Motorcycle Club boss, owner of a nightclub, criminal drug dealer, etc.. I haven't seen any explanation for the relationship between Joe and Dylan yet. Also, who the fuck is Fred to either family? A friend? An employee? Maybe Scarlett and Helen's brother? We don't know, right?

No, it is not sarcasm and I am not sure what AVN you've been playing, I went through the dialogues in the Steam release with a fine-toothed comb (and also compared the Steam Chs 1 to 3 with the original Chs 1 - 3). Little has changed in Chs 1 - 3 other than the insertion of mafia references and the establishment of non-blood relationships.

I reiterate again: Chs 1 - 3 establish that Joe Arano owns the criminal enterprises we see in-game. Leia is managing them while Joe is in prison. Not one criminal enterprise is linked to the Zanes. If you think otherwise, post the dialogues that prove your point.

So far, Fred is simply a neighbor who allows his property to be used for the drug lab. That could change in the future, of course.

What about my questioning who Helen and Scarlet's birth family is did you not understand? Did I ever say Scarlett and Helen are not blood sisters? I simply put forth the possibility that Helen and Scarlet are mob daughters who married into the Zane and Arano families.

 

[byaaahh]

How I would have adjusted the story:

Keep Helen/Dylan/Kate as true Zanes
William and Leia remain twins, have the Zanes take them in much later (10-13)
William's trauma of losing his parents caused an unhealthy closeness to his twin, which results in him running away
When William returns, Leia is off the LI list
We go on to discover the depths of the criminal undertakings of the Zane family and the ladies of Wollust

There you go, no incest (even step) and the story could have progressed as was.

 

[X2JZcf]

How I would have adjusted the story:

Keep Helen/Dylan/Kate as true Zanes
William and Leia remain twins, have the Zanes take them in much later (10-13)
William's trauma of losing his parents caused an unhealthy closeness to his twin, which results in him running away
When William returns, Leia is off the LI list
We go on to discover the depths of the criminal undertakings of the Zane family and the ladies of Wollust

There you go, no incest (even step) and the story could have progressed as was.

Maybe making Leia adopted by the Arano family. No way Ocean would let her go as Li.

 

[RNasc4444]

My PC crashed.

I managed to fix it today. What's new? I heard from a friend that they made a mod to restore Ocean's censorship. Does anyone have the link?

Bem-vindo de volta!
Check the OP. Uncut Edition Mod. True incest can't really be restored since things changed too much but alain did the best with what he had. Check it out!

 

[Maccabbee]

No, it is not sarcasm and I am not sure what AVN you've been playing, I went through the dialogues in the Steam release with a fine-toothed comb (and also compared the Steam Chs 1 to 3 with the original Chs 1 - 3). Little has changed in Chs 1 - 3 other than the insertion of mafia references and the establishment of non-blood relationships.

I reiterate again: Chs 1 - 3 establish that Joe Arano owns the criminal enterprises we see in-game. Leia is managing them while Joe is in prison. Not one criminal enterprise is linked to the Zanes. If you think otherwise, post the dialogues that prove your point.

So far, Fred is simply a neighbor who allows his property to be used for the drug lab. That could change in the future, of course.

What about my questioning who Helen and Scarlet's birth family is did you not understand? Did I ever say Scarlett and Helen are not blood sisters? I simply put forth the possibility that Helen and Scarlet are mob daughters who married into the Zane and Arano families.

Oh, yeah, nothing else really makes sense for the two wives to be from Mob families as well, why else would a Surgeon marry a gang member, and want to criminally take over the department.

So "we don't know who Fred is" as far as the family goes. We don't know a lot of things. That's my point.

As far as the Arano-Zane situation, goes, it makes a lot more sense, given the interrelationships that have lasted over 20 years, that they are not separate families (in both blood and crime-family ways). The wives and cousins all are actual blood relations (Katie, Kata, and Jacob, at least), and Joe Arano has a different name, but he's a sub-boss of the Zanes (officially or not). That would make the MCs an actual part of the Zane organization. It would also explain why Leia P. Zane is running them/taking them over. They're same "family." Otherwise what's left of the MCs would never let that happen, no matter what Joe wanted. No outsider gets to run things.

We still don't know nearly anything of what's going on, and that's what storytelling is hopefully going to get us to. Instead of screaming about nonsense and made-up suppositions on very limited data, wait until Ocean gets us there, if we live long enough. My

 

[byaaahh]

Maybe making Leia adopted by the Arano family. No way Ocean would let her go as Li.

That would rule out Leia x Katie in future...

 

[RNasc4444]

@Turret @RNasc4444 and the others complaining about the changes. I have a question for you guys.

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.
Tell me. And pretend that your income is at stake...

By making a real hard choice. Simple as that. Sacrifice LI's if you have to. Trying to get the cake and eat it too will come back to bite you.

99.9% of people would disagree but I'd be more than willing to lose Kat, Katie, Leia, Scarlet and Helen as LI's to keep the family bond intact. That's how much I value story and characters. That would be my #1 choice here. I said it from the moment Ocean made that post that only Willi and Leia would be related that he did not have an out. The story was written one way and it would be nearly impossible to change course without everything falling apart.

Personally I don't think keeping Willi and Leia related would work either but others disagree. I don't have an answer for you. I'm not convinced even a Romeo and Juliet story between two opposing sides/organizations/gangs/families would work here. So idk...scratch everything you had before and start completely over with only the same characters and models? I honestly don't know.

But if you absolutely had to go this route, for the love of fucking Christ couldn't you atleast keep it tight and small? Somewhat believable? You do not have to go with a crime syndicate made up of dozens of families across multiple cities/continents that are somehow related. Could you not make up weird feudalistic rules with 16th century notions that just look absurd and outdated in today's world where the story takes place in a ridiculously obvious attempt at replacing what you erased? It's all just too much. Just tell a grounded story for the love of God.

There are flaws here that go way past the incest crap. There are inexcusable contradictions across the entire VN for a game was in development for over a year and a half. He still doesn't have an English proofreader and I assume his testers are a little blind. There are problems. And constantly saying every single new update that comes out that Ocean will fix it later or explain the inconsistencies later gets a little fucking old. It happens Every. Single. Fucking. Time!

And lastly. I'm not on Ocean's discord. I'm not one of his customers. I don't have his ear. But I know a few people here are and do. And maybe, even if they find me to be a nitpicky asshole, there's one or two things with which they agree. Things that bother them too. And maybe they'll send a DM to Ocean or just post a comment on his discord that he may see. And maybe the game gets better in the future. Probably not but who knows...

 

[John972]

Oh, yeah, nothing else really makes sense for the two wives to be from Mob families as well, why else would a Surgeon marry a gang member, and want to criminally take over the department.

So "we don't know who Fred is" as far as the family goes. We don't know a lot of things. That's my point.

As far as the Arano-Zane situation, goes, it makes a lot more sense, given the interrelationships that have lasted over 20 years, that they are not separate families (in both blood and crime-family ways). The wives and cousins all are actual blood relations (Katie, Kata, and Jacob, at least), and Joe Arano has a different name, but he's a sub-boss of the Zanes (officially or not). That would make the MCs an actual part of the Zane organization. It would also explain why Leia P. Zane is running them/taking them over. They're same "family." Otherwise what's left of the MCs would never let that happen, no matter what Joe wanted. No outsider gets to run things.

We still don't know nearly anything of what's going on, and that's what storytelling is hopefully going to get us to. Instead of screaming about nonsense and made-up suppositions on very limited data, wait until Ocean gets us there, if we live long enough. My

I posit Helen and Scarlet being crime family daughters simply because it would explain several things. As you pointed out, why would a surgeon marry a small-time motorcycle gang boss?

The only known link between the Zane and Arano families at present is... drum roll, please... the sisters Helen and Scarlet. What's the chance of both sisters - one a surgeon - marrying into separate crime families from a non-crime family?

I suspect Ocean is going to reveal the real Zane family criminal enterprises (for example, at the farm Dylan owns) in the future and paint all this as Helen/Dylan/Scarlet/Joe weaving a web of deceit for years so that the children (Katie/William/Katarina/Lucas/Leia) never really knew anything growing up. Leia knows now, the rest still do not at the end of Ch 4.

Regarding Leia, you say she runs Joe's enterprises because she is a Zane when the rework clearly establishes she is not a real Zane - she and William are not blood family.

You said Helen/Scarlet being mob/crime family daughters doesn't make sense. My take is that it actually explains several things in the story to date.

I am not saying they MUST be mob/crime family daughters. I am simply speculating on reasons they might be mob/crime family daughters.

Personally, I find the whole mob arranged marriage scenario alluded to in Ch 4 a bit tedious (and I really hope it turns out Katie was just bullshitting William when she mentioned it). However, it opens up the possibility that the Dylan/Helen and Joe/Scarlet marriages were arranged in accordance with the OceanVerse criminal underworld code.

You are right that "we still don't know nearly anything of what's going on."

As an example, if a Helen/Dylan Zane criminal empire is revealed, Ocean has to give a convincing reason why the children knew about Joe's criminality but absolutely nothing about the Zane's criminal enterprises while growing up. That's especially true of William and Leia, considering Helen/Dylan were open with them about who their real families were and the reason they came to live with the Zane family.

It's very easy for a writer to drip-feed backstory and major plot elements like peeling layers off an onion. However, It is much harder for a writer to ensure the early chapters don't contradict later reveals or make a reader think "why didn't the characters know that?" after the reveal drops.

 

[Turret]

I get that one or another is not happy about the inevitable and absolutely needed change of relationships in the game, but you have two options, move on or deal with it - no offense meant.

Turret RNasc4444 and the others complaining about the changes. I have a question for you guys.

In Oceans shoes, how would you guys handled this situation and that needed changes? Rooting out the IC shit for the greater good is not negotiable.
Tell me. And pretend that your income is at stake...

It's always easy playing afterwards the smartass and yelling "I told you so..." or complain how shitty everything has become, but having a possible solution that also will not satisfy all users is not so easy.


Ocean had always a open ear for constructive critics, that can't be denied.

I'm actually writing on a Dm to Ocean in discord and tell him my opinion about the release and the the god-fucking-damit lewd scenes.
That fucking h-stuff... I can't stand it, the locker room scene between Bella and Nika in SG was waaaaaaaaaaaaay more arousal than that frigging chaining of animations stuff shown in this game.
Ocean is without question a great artist, and has a knack for weaving music and his visuals into something that works great, but he sucks hard when lewd comes into play, but somehow the former recipe will not work for this. He should play some old school AIF games from Goblinboy or others from this time, to see how a hardcore scene is written.

If the mentioned guys have the muse, write me a DM here, what could be done better in your opinion, what was a unlucky change and how it could be handled better, and I hand it over to him - but keep it polite, don't shoot the messenger

Hi Mortarion!

I already made an off the cuff scenario what should be/should have been done in an earlier post. You might have read it, but here are some things I would STAT change (back) in WIAB:

Like RNasc4444 , I am 100% for restoring the Zane family unit! That the incest arc has to go is not the main problem here. I have no problems losing Leia, Kati, Helen, Kat and Scarlett as LIs for restoring a coherent story.

WIAB was from the beginning a story about the return of a lost sheep, a lost son in our case, home to a family. Interwoven were some mysteries. We have the Zanes, a well-to-do family with Dylan having a successful repair business with their 3 kids. The whirlwind twins Willi and Leia and the chickling Kati. The only connection to the criminal underbelly of Wollust is Uncle Joe, who is both held at arm´s length when it comes to criminal stuff but also a cool Uncle when he keeps it semi-legal.

Now Willi fled the city, got framed in the one he ran to. He meets Miru in prison and she is one important reason Willi survived it. Then we come to the now. Willi and Miru return after the assassination attempt on Helen and Willi is shocked what happened in his absence.
Uncle Joe pulled the family more into the criminal side of Wollust, with Leia, his twin and the one family member he was closest, leading the "special" business. Despite this, there is no obvious reason why Helen was targeted. We also have the Krayt gang which is major problem for the whole city.
Willi now has his work cut out. Repairing his relations to Leia, Kati, Helen/Dylan, the rest of the Zanes and Monika. Getting reaquainted with his few good friends Zoey, Stefan, Gina and Dana. Solving the case of the murder attempt and the Krayt problem. Also what is the result of the Zanes dealings with crime.
Closer to home are the things with Miru. Do they go for porn and/or open relationship? What will come out of Miru´s connection with the Yakuza? As for the LIs, naturally there is Miru in front, but we also have Zoey, Dana, Gina, Monika and Daphne.
There is a lot of interesting stories and relationships which can be covered by the game with ease. And without that crappy MAFIA manure!
As I wrote in an earlier post, if you could piss onto a computer program, I would do so to show my utter contempt for the ch.4 update.

 

[Turret]

Mortarion

As an addendum: Restoring the Zane family unit also solves all the Ayua problems which popped up. Kati is her aunt, no questions asked or existing. Also with her mentioned siblings and cousins, which are the kids of Willi, Miru, Leia, Kati, maybe even Zoey, Dana or Monika. There is simply not a single problem anymore how Kati can be her aunt, like it is now after this crappy update.

I have included my off the cuff scenario from a few days ago. Please remember that the incest connotations in it are completely optional and can be cut out. It simply would be a reason why Willi ran away and that is in the past.
He should have kept the Zanes being a family, Willi and Leia fled because they began to get closer than twins should, a short-circuit reaction due to them being 16 years old teenagers.
They soon learned that living a runaway life and a secret relationship at that age is bound to fail spectacularly. They decide to return, when the framing happened, easy lurning desperate Teens into stuff.
Willi meets Miru like in the original story and hit it off. Miru knows from early on that there is something more to Willi and Leia´s relationship than meets the eye, but that is not too big a problem, since the twins learned the hard way that their taboo relationship is a big can of worms.
One could keep it ambivalent, hinting towards that their relationship went back to just close twins and also towards them "getting closer" on occasion. Generally so, Willi, Miru and Leia live together, gain friends like Daphne, etc. until one day Dylan calls them that Helen became mute after a murder attempt. He tells them that the family gets pulled in deeper into Uncle Joe´s shenigans and a brutal, cocky gang is not only a big problem for the City of Wollust, but it also targets the Zane family´s legal businesses.
And since in this universe Willi and Leia had a loving home,which they miss deeply, but also fear what might happen when they come home, now have a real reason to return.

 

[Maccabbee]

I posit Helen and Scarlet being crime family daughters simply because it would explain several things. As you pointed out, why would a surgeon marry a small-time motorcycle gang boss?

The only known link between the Zane and Arano families at present is... drum roll, please... the sisters Helen and Scarlet. What's the chance of both sisters - one a surgeon - marrying into separate crime families from a non-crime family?

I suspect Ocean is going to reveal the real Zane family criminal enterprises (for example, at the farm Dylan owns) in the future and paint all this as Helen/Dylan/Scarlet/Joe weaving a web of deceit for years so that the children (Katie/William/Katarina/Lucas/Leia) never really knew anything growing up. Leia knows now, the rest still do not at the end of Ch 4.

Regarding Leia, you say she runs Joe's enterprises because she is a Zane when the rework clearly establishes she is not a real Zane - she and William are not blood family.

You said Helen/Scarlet being mob/crime family daughters doesn't make sense. My take is that it actually explains several things in the story to date.

I am not saying they MUST be mob/crime family daughters. I am simply speculating on reasons they might be mob/crime family daughters.

Personally, I find the whole mob arranged marriage scenario alluded to in Ch 4 a bit tedious (and I really hope it turns out Katie was just bullshitting William when she mentioned it). However, it opens up the possibility that the Dylan/Helen and Joe/Scarlet marriages were arranged in accordance with the OceanVerse criminal underworld code.

You are right that "we still don't know nearly anything of what's going on."

As an example, if a Helen/Dylan Zane criminal empire is revealed, Ocean has to give a convincing reason why the children knew about Joe's criminality but absolutely nothing about the Zane's criminal enterprises while growing up. That's especially true of William and Leia, considering Helen/Dylan were open with them about who their real families were and the reason they came to live with the Zane family.

It's very easy for a writer to drip-feed backstory and major plot elements like peeling layers off an onion. However, It is much harder for a writer to ensure the early chapters don't contradict later reveals or make a reader think "why didn't the characters know that?" after the reveal drops.

You've got to be intentionally obtuse, here. You can be in the Zane mob family and not be a Zane. You think all the bosses and soldiers are blood related? Don't be an idiot.

William and Leia, despite having their own family names, are also referred to as Zane, both in name and as part of the "family." Learn to read and understand, not just look at line notes or single shots without putting it all together. The only time I recall them being referred to as just Grimaldi or Pedersoli is on the fed's board. That has been theorized and explained that they only use official names. Real police use both official legal names AND aliases on these boards. Ocean didn't. Mafia reasons, I suppose.

When William left the family he was 16!!!! Why would he have any knowlege of the structure and workings of the "family business" at that age? Did you watch the Sopranos? Meadow was in college, and the dipshit son in high school, and Tony and Carmella both denied the existance of the mafia, never mind the Soprano family business. Criminal organisations keep secrets or they get busted up and imprisoned. Yes, the Zanes keep secrets. Even normals do that, never mind criminals. You have no context or clue how these things work, in reality or otherwise.

Even when people explain this shit to you, it's like you've never seen it or read it, and repeat the same points over and over again. Your arguments are not invalid, but neither is anyone else's, because we don't have all of the facts needed to prove or disprove them yet.

In game, unless we witness things happening, things we know are things people say, and those can be lies or mistakes.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

You said Helen/Scarlet being mob/crime family daughters doesn't make sense. My take is that it actually explains several things in the story to date.

I am not saying they MUST be mob/crime family daughters. I am simply speculating on reasons they might be mob/crime family daughters.

It's almost confirmed, when Willy asks what Helen thinks about the arranged marriages story, Katie replies "Mom grew up with these rules"

 

[Radon-]

I think for plot/cohesion, a rewrite would have been the most appropriate option. I can understand why Ocean did what he did though. You have a VN that is 6 years old, thats been in the red, and that he has rewritten before. Would you want to rewrite that again, further delaying a Steam release, therefore unable for it to support its own development?

Rewriting also means tinkering with LIs. If you restore the family dynamic, it means Leia and Katie essentially cant be LIs anymore. Considering how popular Katie alone is, Ocean would risk losing a lot of support. And I dont think AVNs function with major female characters that are unlewdable. People would constantly voice their frustrations about that, especially when they have been lewdable before the rework. On the other hand, doing away with the family dynamic would essentially mean launching a completely new VN, as it is foundational to the current story, again losing a lot of supporters that were there for the concept and established dynamics between the characters. He would have to build up a new supporter base. Ocean might also be emotionally attached to the current concept, given that it was his first VN.

But rewriting could mean more stable support in the long term and less of a chance to trip up during writing.

So the question is, if youre Ocean, do you rewrite the story for a second time, undoing all the previous work, delaying a Steam release, potentially losing supporters due to LIs changing, story changes etc? Or do you do what he did, try to somehow keep a resemblance of a family dynamic with the current LIs alive, by clumsily putting together some scenario in which it could make sense, therefore hopefully keeping a lot of the supporters that are there for the current overarching plot and the LIs? Given its about his livelihood, I can totally see why he thought the latter option was less risky. I just wish he executed better than this inane mafia framework.

Would be interesting to know how it would have turned out financially long term had he rewritten with a more solid story as a foundation instead, but I guess we'll never know. The current Steam success proves him right somewhat I guess? Although the figures for the next season would be more indicative of how much the audience there liked his story, all else being equal.

 

[Maccabbee]

I think for plot/cohesion, a rewrite would have been the most appropriate option. I can understand why Ocean did what he did though. You have a VN that is 6 years old, thats been in the red, and that he has rewritten before. Would you want to rewrite that again, further delaying a Steam release, therefore unable for it to support its own development?

Rewriting also means tinkering with LIs. If you restore the family dynamic, it means Leia and Katie essentially cant be LIs anymore. Considering how popular Katie alone is, Ocean would risk losing a lot of support. And I dont think AVNs function with major female characters that are unlewdable. People would constantly voice their frustrations about that, especially when they have been lewdable before the rework. On the other hand, doing away with the family dynamic would essentially mean launching a completely new VN, as it is foundational to the current story, again losing a lot of supporters that were there for the concept and established dynamics between the characters. He would have to build up a new supporter base. Ocean might also be emotionally attached to the current concept, given that it was his first VN.

But rewriting could mean more stable support in the long term and less of a chance to trip up during writing.

So the question is, if youre Ocean, do you rewrite the story for a second time, undoing all the previous work, delaying a Steam release, potentially losing supporters due to LIs changing, story changes etc? Or do you do what he did, try to somehow keep a resemblance of a family dynamic with the current LIs alive, by clumsily putting together some scenario in which it could make sense, therefore hopefully keeping a lot of the supporters that are there for the current overarching plot and the LIs? Given its about his livelihood, I can totally see why he thought the latter option was less risky. I just wish he executed better than this inane mafia framework.

Would be interesting to know how it would have turned out financially long term had he rewritten with a more solid story as a foundation instead, but I guess we'll never know. The current Steam success proves him right somewhat I guess? Although the figures for the next season would be more indicative of how much the audience there liked his story, all else being equal.

Well, judging by reviews of actual people that bought the game, he did good enough. It's just the loud minority that disagree.