VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[Dr.TSoni]

You said Helen/Scarlet being mob/crime family daughters doesn't make sense. My take is that it actually explains several things in the story to date.

I am not saying they MUST be mob/crime family daughters. I am simply speculating on reasons they might be mob/crime family daughters.

It's almost confirmed, when Willy asks what Helen thinks about the arranged marriages story, Katie replies "Mom grew up with these rules"

 

[Radon-]

I think for plot/cohesion, a rewrite would have been the most appropriate option. I can understand why Ocean did what he did though. You have a VN that is 6 years old, thats been in the red, and that he has rewritten before. Would you want to rewrite that again, further delaying a Steam release, therefore unable for it to support its own development?

Rewriting also means tinkering with LIs. If you restore the family dynamic, it means Leia and Katie essentially cant be LIs anymore. Considering how popular Katie alone is, Ocean would risk losing a lot of support. And I dont think AVNs function with major female characters that are unlewdable. People would constantly voice their frustrations about that, especially when they have been lewdable before the rework. On the other hand, doing away with the family dynamic would essentially mean launching a completely new VN, as it is foundational to the current story, again losing a lot of supporters that were there for the concept and established dynamics between the characters. He would have to build up a new supporter base. Ocean might also be emotionally attached to the current concept, given that it was his first VN.

But rewriting could mean more stable support in the long term and less of a chance to trip up during writing.

So the question is, if youre Ocean, do you rewrite the story for a second time, undoing all the previous work, delaying a Steam release, potentially losing supporters due to LIs changing, story changes etc? Or do you do what he did, try to somehow keep a resemblance of a family dynamic with the current LIs alive, by clumsily putting together some scenario in which it could make sense, therefore hopefully keeping a lot of the supporters that are there for the current overarching plot and the LIs? Given its about his livelihood, I can totally see why he thought the latter option was less risky. I just wish he executed better than this inane mafia framework.

Would be interesting to know how it would have turned out financially long term had he rewritten with a more solid story as a foundation instead, but I guess we'll never know. The current Steam success proves him right somewhat I guess? Although the figures for the next season would be more indicative of how much the audience there liked his story, all else being equal.

 

[Maccabbee]

I think for plot/cohesion, a rewrite would have been the most appropriate option. I can understand why Ocean did what he did though. You have a VN that is 6 years old, thats been in the red, and that he has rewritten before. Would you want to rewrite that again, further delaying a Steam release, therefore unable for it to support its own development?

Rewriting also means tinkering with LIs. If you restore the family dynamic, it means Leia and Katie essentially cant be LIs anymore. Considering how popular Katie alone is, Ocean would risk losing a lot of support. And I dont think AVNs function with major female characters that are unlewdable. People would constantly voice their frustrations about that, especially when they have been lewdable before the rework. On the other hand, doing away with the family dynamic would essentially mean launching a completely new VN, as it is foundational to the current story, again losing a lot of supporters that were there for the concept and established dynamics between the characters. He would have to build up a new supporter base. Ocean might also be emotionally attached to the current concept, given that it was his first VN.

But rewriting could mean more stable support in the long term and less of a chance to trip up during writing.

So the question is, if youre Ocean, do you rewrite the story for a second time, undoing all the previous work, delaying a Steam release, potentially losing supporters due to LIs changing, story changes etc? Or do you do what he did, try to somehow keep a resemblance of a family dynamic with the current LIs alive, by clumsily putting together some scenario in which it could make sense, therefore hopefully keeping a lot of the supporters that are there for the current overarching plot and the LIs? Given its about his livelihood, I can totally see why he thought the latter option was less risky. I just wish he executed better than this inane mafia framework.

Would be interesting to know how it would have turned out financially long term had he rewritten with a more solid story as a foundation instead, but I guess we'll never know. The current Steam success proves him right somewhat I guess? Although the figures for the next season would be more indicative of how much the audience there liked his story, all else being equal.

Well, judging by reviews of actual people that bought the game, he did good enough. It's just the loud minority that disagree.

 

[John972]

You've got to be intentionally obtuse, here. You can be in the Zane mob family and not be a Zane. You think all the bosses and soldiers are blood related? Don't be an idiot.

William and Leia, despite having their own family names, are also referred to as Zane, both in name and as part of the "family." Learn to read and understand, not just look at line notes or single shots without putting it all together. The only time I recall them being referred to as just Grimaldi or Pedersoli is on the fed's board. That has been theorized and explained that they only use official names. Real police use both official legal names AND aliases on these boards. Ocean didn't. Mafia reasons, I suppose.

When William left the family he was 16!!!! Why would he have any knowlege of the structure and workings of the "family business" at that age? Did you watch the Sopranos? Meadow was in college, and the dipshit son in high school, and Tony and Carmella both denied the existance of the mafia, never mind the Soprano family business. Criminal organisations keep secrets or they get busted up and imprisoned. Yes, the Zanes keep secrets. Even normals do that, never mind criminals. You have no context or clue how these things work, in reality or otherwise.

Even when people explain this shit to you, it's like you've never seen it or read it, and repeat the same points over and over again. Your arguments are not invalid, but neither is anyone else's, because we don't have all of the facts needed to prove or disprove them yet.

In game, unless we witness things happening, things we know are things people say, and those can be lies or mistakes.

For goodness sake. Whatever reason Leia took over Joe's business, it wasn't necessarily because she was a "Zane." Leia even thinks the Zanes don't want her to succeed, as she confides to William. William calls her paranoid. Nothing in the rework so far points to William or Leia being heirs apparent to the Zane criminal empire. Thus, anything like that is pure speculation at this stage.

Who the fuck said William had to have an intimate knowledge of the structure and workings of the Zane crime family enterprises? Are you saying that he was blind, deaf, and dumb for a decade and never noticed or suspected anything? ... and here is the stinker: why would he know about Joe's criminal enterprises growing up but not know or suspect a single thing about his own family?

You are explaining sweet FA, by the way... you are positing many things that are often contradictory or contrarian. When you say "people explaining shit," you seem to be referring only to yourself. Am I saying you're always wrong... definitely not! That doesn't mean you're always right, though. That's the nature of debate - to look at and interpret what the story presented so far and to speculate future pathways based upon that story.

I have a very large textual document where I pulled dialogues/conversations from the entire game and organized them by content/subject. That way, I was able to present evidence from multiple dialogues that the secret Katie held over William before he fled was a taboo kiss between them. Did you see the backlash I initially got over that? That's not pulling single lines from the script, as you accuse.

 

[John972]

Well, judging by reviews of actual people that bought the game, he did good enough. It's just the loud minority that disagree.

I am generally fine with it. That's not the same as saying it's flawless, though.

 

[Maccabbee]

For goodness sake. Whatever reason Leia took over Joe's business, it wasn't necessarily because she was a "Zane." Leia even thinks the Zanes don't want her to succeed, as she confides to William. William calls her paranoid. Nothing in the rework so far points to William or Leia being heirs apparent to the Zane criminal empire. Thus, anything like that is pure speculation at this stage.

Who the fuck said William had to have an intimate knowledge of the structure and workings of the Zane crime family enterprises? Are you saying that he was blind, deaf, and dumb for a decade and never noticed or suspected anything? ... and here is the stinker: why would he know about Joe's criminal enterprises growing up but not know or suspect a single thing about his own family?

You are explaining sweet FA, by the way... you are positing many things that are often contradictory or contrarian. When you say "people explaining shit," you seem to be referring only to yourself. Am I saying you're always wrong... definitely not! That doesn't mean you're always right, though. That's the nature of debate - to look at and interpret what the story presented so far and to speculate future pathways based upon that story.

I have a very large textual document where I pulled dialogues/conversations from the entire game and organized them by content/subject. That way, I was able to present evidence from multiple dialogues that the secret Katie held over William before he fled was a taboo kiss between them. Did you see the backlash I initially got over that? That's not pulling single lines from the script, as you accuse.

What I am doing is not stating my opinions, necessarily, but valid reasons that your arguments are just as much supposition and bullshit as any others. There are not enough facts in the game to make any conclusions. Comments from people in the game are not facts, they're statements, and could be wrong or lies. You think you know things, but are guessing, and a lot of your assumptions are just that: assumptions.

 

[daemonblackfyre]

Hi Mortarion!

I already made an off the cuff scenario what should be/should have been done in an earlier post. You might have read it, but here are some things I would STAT change (back) in WIAB:

Like RNasc4444 , I am 100% for restoring the Zane family unit! That the incest arc has to go is not the main problem here. I have no problems losing Leia, Kati, Helen, Kat and Scarlett as LIs for restoring a coherent story.

WIAB was from the beginning a story about the return of a lost sheep, a lost son in our case, home to a family. Interwoven were some mysteries. We have the Zanes, a well-to-do family with Dylan having a successful repair business with their 3 kids. The whirlwind twins Willi and Leia and the chickling Kati. The only connection to the criminal underbelly of Wollust is Uncle Joe, who is both held at arm´s length when it comes to criminal stuff but also a cool Uncle when he keeps it semi-legal.

Now Willi fled the city, got framed in the one he ran to. He meets Miru in prison and she is one important reason Willi survived it. Then we come to the now. Willi and Miru return after the assassination attempt on Helen and Willi is shocked what happened in his absence.
Uncle Joe pulled the family more into the criminal side of Wollust, with Leia, his twin and the one family member he was closest, leading the "special" business. Despite this, there is no obvious reason why Helen was targeted. We also have the Krayt gang which is major problem for the whole city.
Willi now has his work cut out. Repairing his relations to Leia, Kati, Helen/Dylan, the rest of the Zanes and Monika. Getting reaquainted with his few good friends Zoey, Stefan, Gina and Dana. Solving the case of the murder attempt and the Krayt problem. Also what is the result of the Zanes dealings with crime.
Closer to home are the things with Miru. Do they go for porn and/or open relationship? What will come out of Miru´s connection with the Yakuza? As for the LIs, naturally there is Miru in front, but we also have Zoey, Dana, Gina, Monika and Daphne.
There is a lot of interesting stories and relationships which can be covered by the game with ease. And without that crappy MAFIA manure!
As I wrote in an earlier post, if you could piss onto a computer program, I would do so to show my utter contempt for the ch.4 update.

--------------------------------------------------------

Please don't lose Leia we need the Twins !!

 

[Crashbullet]

Tell me.

Make William Zane, and Katie and Leia adopted? Then there would be a reason why Willy couldn't sleep with them – to sell them to other families as virgins, but he fell in love, crossed that line and ran away, huh? How do you like that?
Much more sense huh? And there is sense in the tribunal, for spoiling the girl and the sense of Leia's hatred and the sense of returning to the FAMILY

Ps and also appeared meaning in that Ayua is Zane too

 

[Turret]

Well, judging by reviews of actual people that bought the game, he did good enough. It's just the loud minority that disagree.

Art thou to yourself of that so sure? Developers on Steam can let negative comments get scratched, several studios are infamous for that. Also it would be interesting how many reviews are from those player who are longtime fans. I doubt that among the longtime fans their reviews will be all that good.

 

[Fortnite Battlepass]

Well, judging by reviews of actual people that bought the game, he did good enough. It's just the loud minority that disagree.

Thats some good cope, keep it up

 

[Maviarab]

All that's missing are the six renders (named q5 to q10) showing Miru getting initimate with the Krayt guy. I think we have no context to those renders other than them likely only getting triggered by William agreeing in Ch 3 to Miru having fun with other men...

Would also like to point out...facts...it's Q5. 6 to 10 are not 'missing' at all and are from when Gigachad fucks Miru in the apartment after Dana leaves.

Btw, I have ~153 posts in this thread. With 2,335 posts, I don't even crack 10%.

Slacker!

 

[John972]

What I am doing is not stating my opinions, necessarily, but valid reasons that your arguments are just as much supposition and bullshit as any others. There are not enough facts in the game to make any conclusions. Comments from people in the game are not facts, they're statements, and could be wrong or lies. You think you know things, but are guessing, and a lot of your assumptions are just that: assumptions.

Yes, characters can lie and characters can be under misapprehensions in the game .

That's why analyzing multiple dialogues between multiple characters is important. It's about looking for wider context.

For example, here are some conversations between characters about William and Leia's lineage and who might not want Leia to succeed:

Spoiler

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What is confirmed by those dialogues (and not simply character opinion):

- William and Leia's parents were clipped and the two children were spared.
- Helen/Dylan told young William/Leia some details about their real families, so they have a fundamental knowledge.
- Leia may carry the Zane name, but she remains a Pedersoli in some quarters. Leia thinks the Zane's want to keep her down. Scarlet says the Giuseppe's don't want Leia anywhere near the top. That strongly implies there is push-back on Leia running Joe's enterprises. Time will tell where that push-back is coming from and where the different factions stand on Leia's rise. Initial indications are that the Zanes-Aranos are supportive of Leia. That doesn't mean they don't have some ulterior motive and are using her.

Multiple conversations between characters about Leia's two main business ventures known to date:

Spoiler

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What is confirmed by those dialogues (and not simply character opinion):

-Leia took over Joe Arano's enterprises (drug lab and nightclub) while he's in prison. No other characters in the presence of Leia deny or contradict what she tells William.
-The FBI says Leia owns the nightclub and doesn't mention any ownership by Joey Arano. William believes Joe "gave gave her the place," but his meaning is unclear. Does he mean Joey gave Leia the nightclub to manage or gave her ownership?


PS - See edit in my reply to you in:

https://f95zone.to/threads/where-it-all-began-s1-ch-4-steam-oceanlab.19856/post-17545221

I was mistaken. The term "matriarch" is never used in the game.

 

[John972]

Would also like to point out...facts...it's Q5. 6 to 10 are not 'missing' at all and are from when Gigachad fucks Miru in the apartment after Dana leaves.

My bad! Q5 it is.

 

[Maviarab]

For all those whining about the 'family' connection:

It's happening.

 

[Matt2012021]

In the old wiab did katie have the nipple peircing

 

[RNasc4444]

In the old wiab did katie have the nipple peircing

Nope. She actually looked good topless before the newest update.

 

[jadepaladin]

I probably post more in SG. Intertwined may be my most.

As you can tell, I post sporadically every few months.

Also, not counting posts deleted when defending the game against AlexFXR(?)

Intertwined is my most. It's not even close to anything else either. I think WiaB is around 4th but not sure.

 

[Matt2012021]

Thanks saved me the time

 

[Ray_D]

In the old wiab did katie have the nipple peircing

50% of the female characters have nipple piercings because it seems to be a poorly disguised Ocean's fetish.

 

[byaaahh]

Nope. She actually looked good topless before the newest update.

I don't mind the metal, it suits her personality.

I just worry all of ladies will end up with them at this rate.