Miranha157
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Maccabbee
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This is also in reply to the other stuff in my last post, but I'm not getting recursive here, the site is broken enough as is:
One of the things I love about Ocean's storytelling is that he doesn't spell everything out for us, treating us like idiots. He implies some things, and only exposes us to what the MC is actively seeing (mostly), and if we're lucky we get some exposition or flashbacks to fill in some needed gaps. We never know everything, and even that is filtered through unreliable narrators: the MC's memories and other characters' explanations.
Fortunately, that leaves us plenty of room for theorycrafting, which is the best part of this thread aside from Waifu wars. Unfortunately, nobody knows what's really going on, but thinks they do from their perceptions of the limited story so far.
No, it is not sarcasm and I am not sure what AVN you've been playing, I went through the dialogues in the Steam release with a fine-toothed comb (and also compared the Steam Chs 1 to 3 with the original Chs 1 - 3). Little has changed in Chs 1 - 3 other than the insertion of mafia references and the establishment of non-blood relationships.
I reiterate again: Chs 1 - 3 establish that Joe Arano owns the criminal enterprises we see in-game. Leia is managing them while Joe is in prison. Not one criminal enterprise is linked to the Zanes. If you think otherwise, post the dialogues that prove your point.
So far, Fred is simply a neighbor who allows his property to be used for the drug lab. That could change in the future, of course.
What about my questioning who Helen and Scarlet's birth family is did you not understand? Did I ever say Scarlett and Helen are not blood sisters? I simply put forth the possibility that Helen and Scarlet are mob daughters who married into the Zane and Arano families.
byaaahh
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How I would have adjusted the story:
Keep Helen/Dylan/Kate as true Zanes
William and Leia remain twins, have the Zanes take them in much later (10-13)
William's trauma of losing his parents caused an unhealthy closeness to his twin, which results in him running away
When William returns, Leia is off the LI list
We go on to discover the depths of the criminal undertakings of the Zane family and the ladies of Wollust
There you go, no incest (even step) and the story could have progressed as was.
Keep Helen/Dylan/Kate as true Zanes
William and Leia remain twins, have the Zanes take them in much later (10-13)
William's trauma of losing his parents caused an unhealthy closeness to his twin, which results in him running away
When William returns, Leia is off the LI list
We go on to discover the depths of the criminal undertakings of the Zane family and the ladies of Wollust
There you go, no incest (even step) and the story could have progressed as was.
X2JZcf
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Maybe making Leia adopted by the Arano family. No way Ocean would let her go as Li.
RNasc4444
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Bem-vindo de volta!
Check the OP. Uncut Edition Mod. True incest can't really be restored since things changed too much but alain did the best with what he had. Check it out!
Maccabbee
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Oh, yeah, nothing else really makes sense for the two wives to be from Mob families as well, why else would a Surgeon marry a gang member, and want to criminally take over the department.
So "we don't know who Fred is" as far as the family goes. We don't know a lot of things. That's my point.
As far as the Arano-Zane situation, goes, it makes a lot more sense, given the interrelationships that have lasted over 20 years, that they are not separate families (in both blood and crime-family ways). The wives and cousins all are actual blood relations (Katie, Kata, and Jacob, at least), and Joe Arano has a different name, but he's a sub-boss of the Zanes (officially or not). That would make the MCs an actual part of the Zane organization. It would also explain why Leia P. Zane is running them/taking them over. They're same "family." Otherwise what's left of the MCs would never let that happen, no matter what Joe wanted. No outsider gets to run things.
We still don't know nearly anything of what's going on, and that's what storytelling is hopefully going to get us to. Instead of screaming about nonsense and made-up suppositions on very limited data, wait until Ocean gets us there, if we live long enough. My
byaaahh
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RNasc4444
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By making a real hard choice. Simple as that. Sacrifice LI's if you have to. Trying to get the cake and eat it too will come back to bite you.
99.9% of people would disagree but I'd be more than willing to lose Kat, Katie, Leia, Scarlet and Helen as LI's to keep the family bond intact. That's how much I value story and characters. That would be my #1 choice here. I said it from the moment Ocean made that post that only Willi and Leia would be related that he did not have an out. The story was written one way and it would be nearly impossible to change course without everything falling apart.
Personally I don't think keeping Willi and Leia related would work either but others disagree. I don't have an answer for you. I'm not convinced even a Romeo and Juliet story between two opposing sides/organizations/gangs/families would work here. So idk...scratch everything you had before and start completely over with only the same characters and models? I honestly don't know.
But if you absolutely had to go this route, for the love of fucking Christ couldn't you atleast keep it tight and small? Somewhat believable? You do not have to go with a crime syndicate made up of dozens of families across multiple cities/continents that are somehow related. Could you not make up weird feudalistic rules with 16th century notions that just look absurd and outdated in today's world where the story takes place in a ridiculously obvious attempt at replacing what you erased? It's all just too much. Just tell a grounded story for the love of God.
There are flaws here that go way past the incest crap. There are inexcusable contradictions across the entire VN for a game was in development for over a year and a half. He still doesn't have an English proofreader and I assume his testers are a little blind. There are problems. And constantly saying every single new update that comes out that Ocean will fix it later or explain the inconsistencies later gets a little fucking old. It happens Every. Single. Fucking. Time!
And lastly. I'm not on Ocean's discord. I'm not one of his customers. I don't have his ear. But I know a few people here are and do. And maybe, even if they find me to be a nitpicky asshole, there's one or two things with which they agree. Things that bother them too. And maybe they'll send a DM to Ocean or just post a comment on his discord that he may see. And maybe the game gets better in the future. Probably not but who knows...
I posit Helen and Scarlet being crime family daughters simply because it would explain several things. As you pointed out, why would a surgeon marry a small-time motorcycle gang boss?
The only known link between the Zane and Arano families at present is... drum roll, please... the sisters Helen and Scarlet. What's the chance of both sisters - one a surgeon - marrying into separate crime families from a non-crime family?
I suspect Ocean is going to reveal the real Zane family criminal enterprises (for example, at the farm Dylan owns) in the future and paint all this as Helen/Dylan/Scarlet/Joe weaving a web of deceit for years so that the children (Katie/William/Katarina/Lucas/Leia) never really knew anything growing up. Leia knows now, the rest still do not at the end of Ch 4.
Regarding Leia, you say she runs Joe's enterprises because she is a Zane when the rework clearly establishes she is not a real Zane - she and William are not blood family.
You said Helen/Scarlet being mob/crime family daughters doesn't make sense. My take is that it actually explains several things in the story to date.
I am not saying they MUST be mob/crime family daughters. I am simply speculating on reasons they might be mob/crime family daughters.
Personally, I find the whole mob arranged marriage scenario alluded to in Ch 4 a bit tedious (and I really hope it turns out Katie was just bullshitting William when she mentioned it). However, it opens up the possibility that the Dylan/Helen and Joe/Scarlet marriages were arranged in accordance with the OceanVerse criminal underworld code.
You are right that "we still don't know nearly anything of what's going on."
As an example, if a Helen/Dylan Zane criminal empire is revealed, Ocean has to give a convincing reason why the children knew about Joe's criminality but absolutely nothing about the Zane's criminal enterprises while growing up. That's especially true of William and Leia, considering Helen/Dylan were open with them about who their real families were and the reason they came to live with the Zane family.
It's very easy for a writer to drip-feed backstory and major plot elements like peeling layers off an onion. However, It is much harder for a writer to ensure the early chapters don't contradict later reveals or make a reader think "why didn't the characters know that?" after the reveal drops.
Hi Mortarion!
I already made an off the cuff scenario what should be/should have been done in an earlier post. You might have read it, but here are some things I would STAT change (back) in WIAB:
Like RNasc4444 , I am 100% for restoring the Zane family unit! That the incest arc has to go is not the main problem here. I have no problems losing Leia, Kati, Helen, Kat and Scarlett as LIs for restoring a coherent story.
WIAB was from the beginning a story about the return of a lost sheep, a lost son in our case, home to a family. Interwoven were some mysteries. We have the Zanes, a well-to-do family with Dylan having a successful repair business with their 3 kids. The whirlwind twins Willi and Leia and the chickling Kati. The only connection to the criminal underbelly of Wollust is Uncle Joe, who is both held at arm´s length when it comes to criminal stuff but also a cool Uncle when he keeps it semi-legal.
Now Willi fled the city, got framed in the one he ran to. He meets Miru in prison and she is one important reason Willi survived it. Then we come to the now. Willi and Miru return after the assassination attempt on Helen and Willi is shocked what happened in his absence.
Uncle Joe pulled the family more into the criminal side of Wollust, with Leia, his twin and the one family member he was closest, leading the "special" business. Despite this, there is no obvious reason why Helen was targeted. We also have the Krayt gang which is major problem for the whole city.
Willi now has his work cut out. Repairing his relations to Leia, Kati, Helen/Dylan, the rest of the Zanes and Monika. Getting reaquainted with his few good friends Zoey, Stefan, Gina and Dana. Solving the case of the murder attempt and the Krayt problem. Also what is the result of the Zanes dealings with crime.
Closer to home are the things with Miru. Do they go for porn and/or open relationship? What will come out of Miru´s connection with the Yakuza? As for the LIs, naturally there is Miru in front, but we also have Zoey, Dana, Gina, Monika and Daphne.
There is a lot of interesting stories and relationships which can be covered by the game with ease. And without that crappy MAFIA manure!
As I wrote in an earlier post, if you could piss onto a computer program, I would do so to show my utter contempt for the ch.4 update.
Mortarion
As an addendum: Restoring the Zane family unit also solves all the Ayua problems which popped up. Kati is her aunt, no questions asked or existing. Also with her mentioned siblings and cousins, which are the kids of Willi, Miru, Leia, Kati, maybe even Zoey, Dana or Monika. There is simply not a single problem anymore how Kati can be her aunt, like it is now after this crappy update.
I have included my off the cuff scenario from a few days ago. Please remember that the incest connotations in it are completely optional and can be cut out. It simply would be a reason why Willi ran away and that is in the past.
He should have kept the Zanes being a family, Willi and Leia fled because they began to get closer than twins should, a short-circuit reaction due to them being 16 years old teenagers.
They soon learned that living a runaway life and a secret relationship at that age is bound to fail spectacularly. They decide to return, when the framing happened, easy lurning desperate Teens into stuff.
Willi meets Miru like in the original story and hit it off. Miru knows from early on that there is something more to Willi and Leia´s relationship than meets the eye, but that is not too big a problem, since the twins learned the hard way that their taboo relationship is a big can of worms.
One could keep it ambivalent, hinting towards that their relationship went back to just close twins and also towards them "getting closer" on occasion. Generally so, Willi, Miru and Leia live together, gain friends like Daphne, etc. until one day Dylan calls them that Helen became mute after a murder attempt. He tells them that the family gets pulled in deeper into Uncle Joe´s shenigans and a brutal, cocky gang is not only a big problem for the City of Wollust, but it also targets the Zane family´s legal businesses.
And since in this universe Willi and Leia had a loving home,which they miss deeply, but also fear what might happen when they come home, now have a real reason to return.
As an addendum: Restoring the Zane family unit also solves all the Ayua problems which popped up. Kati is her aunt, no questions asked or existing. Also with her mentioned siblings and cousins, which are the kids of Willi, Miru, Leia, Kati, maybe even Zoey, Dana or Monika. There is simply not a single problem anymore how Kati can be her aunt, like it is now after this crappy update.
I have included my off the cuff scenario from a few days ago. Please remember that the incest connotations in it are completely optional and can be cut out. It simply would be a reason why Willi ran away and that is in the past.
He should have kept the Zanes being a family, Willi and Leia fled because they began to get closer than twins should, a short-circuit reaction due to them being 16 years old teenagers.
They soon learned that living a runaway life and a secret relationship at that age is bound to fail spectacularly. They decide to return, when the framing happened, easy lurning desperate Teens into stuff.
Willi meets Miru like in the original story and hit it off. Miru knows from early on that there is something more to Willi and Leia´s relationship than meets the eye, but that is not too big a problem, since the twins learned the hard way that their taboo relationship is a big can of worms.
One could keep it ambivalent, hinting towards that their relationship went back to just close twins and also towards them "getting closer" on occasion. Generally so, Willi, Miru and Leia live together, gain friends like Daphne, etc. until one day Dylan calls them that Helen became mute after a murder attempt. He tells them that the family gets pulled in deeper into Uncle Joe´s shenigans and a brutal, cocky gang is not only a big problem for the City of Wollust, but it also targets the Zane family´s legal businesses.
And since in this universe Willi and Leia had a loving home,which they miss deeply, but also fear what might happen when they come home, now have a real reason to return.
Maccabbee
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You've got to be intentionally obtuse, here. You can be in the Zane mob family and not be a Zane. You think all the bosses and soldiers are blood related? Don't be an idiot.
William and Leia, despite having their own family names, are also referred to as Zane, both in name and as part of the "family." Learn to read and understand, not just look at line notes or single shots without putting it all together. The only time I recall them being referred to as just Grimaldi or Pedersoli is on the fed's board. That has been theorized and explained that they only use official names. Real police use both official legal names AND aliases on these boards. Ocean didn't. Mafia reasons, I suppose.
When William left the family he was 16!!!! Why would he have any knowlege of the structure and workings of the "family business" at that age? Did you watch the Sopranos? Meadow was in college, and the dipshit son in high school, and Tony and Carmella both denied the existance of the mafia, never mind the Soprano family business. Criminal organisations keep secrets or they get busted up and imprisoned. Yes, the Zanes keep secrets. Even normals do that, never mind criminals. You have no context or clue how these things work, in reality or otherwise.
Even when people explain this shit to you, it's like you've never seen it or read it, and repeat the same points over and over again. Your arguments are not invalid, but neither is anyone else's, because we don't have all of the facts needed to prove or disprove them yet.
In game, unless we witness things happening, things we know are things people say, and those can be lies or mistakes.
Dr.TSoni
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It's almost confirmed, when Willy asks what Helen thinks about the arranged marriages story, Katie replies "Mom grew up with these rules"
I think for plot/cohesion, a rewrite would have been the most appropriate option. I can understand why Ocean did what he did though. You have a VN that is 6 years old, thats been in the red, and that he has rewritten before. Would you want to rewrite that again, further delaying a Steam release, therefore unable for it to support its own development?
Rewriting also means tinkering with LIs. If you restore the family dynamic, it means Leia and Katie essentially cant be LIs anymore. Considering how popular Katie alone is, Ocean would risk losing a lot of support. And I dont think AVNs function with major female characters that are unlewdable. People would constantly voice their frustrations about that, especially when they have been lewdable before the rework. On the other hand, doing away with the family dynamic would essentially mean launching a completely new VN, as it is foundational to the current story, again losing a lot of supporters that were there for the concept and established dynamics between the characters. He would have to build up a new supporter base. Ocean might also be emotionally attached to the current concept, given that it was his first VN.
But rewriting could mean more stable support in the long term and less of a chance to trip up during writing.
So the question is, if youre Ocean, do you rewrite the story for a second time, undoing all the previous work, delaying a Steam release, potentially losing supporters due to LIs changing, story changes etc? Or do you do what he did, try to somehow keep a resemblance of a family dynamic with the current LIs alive, by clumsily putting together some scenario in which it could make sense, therefore hopefully keeping a lot of the supporters that are there for the current overarching plot and the LIs? Given its about his livelihood, I can totally see why he thought the latter option was less risky. I just wish he executed better than this inane mafia framework.
Would be interesting to know how it would have turned out financially long term had he rewritten with a more solid story as a foundation instead, but I guess we'll never know. The current Steam success proves him right somewhat I guess? Although the figures for the next season would be more indicative of how much the audience there liked his story, all else being equal.
Rewriting also means tinkering with LIs. If you restore the family dynamic, it means Leia and Katie essentially cant be LIs anymore. Considering how popular Katie alone is, Ocean would risk losing a lot of support. And I dont think AVNs function with major female characters that are unlewdable. People would constantly voice their frustrations about that, especially when they have been lewdable before the rework. On the other hand, doing away with the family dynamic would essentially mean launching a completely new VN, as it is foundational to the current story, again losing a lot of supporters that were there for the concept and established dynamics between the characters. He would have to build up a new supporter base. Ocean might also be emotionally attached to the current concept, given that it was his first VN.
But rewriting could mean more stable support in the long term and less of a chance to trip up during writing.
So the question is, if youre Ocean, do you rewrite the story for a second time, undoing all the previous work, delaying a Steam release, potentially losing supporters due to LIs changing, story changes etc? Or do you do what he did, try to somehow keep a resemblance of a family dynamic with the current LIs alive, by clumsily putting together some scenario in which it could make sense, therefore hopefully keeping a lot of the supporters that are there for the current overarching plot and the LIs? Given its about his livelihood, I can totally see why he thought the latter option was less risky. I just wish he executed better than this inane mafia framework.
Would be interesting to know how it would have turned out financially long term had he rewritten with a more solid story as a foundation instead, but I guess we'll never know. The current Steam success proves him right somewhat I guess? Although the figures for the next season would be more indicative of how much the audience there liked his story, all else being equal.
Maccabbee
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Well, judging by reviews of actual people that bought the game, he did good enough. It's just the loud minority that disagree.
For goodness sake. Whatever reason Leia took over Joe's business, it wasn't necessarily because she was a "Zane." Leia even thinks the Zanes don't want her to succeed, as she confides to William. William calls her paranoid. Nothing in the rework so far points to William or Leia being heirs apparent to the Zane criminal empire. Thus, anything like that is pure speculation at this stage.
Who the fuck said William had to have an intimate knowledge of the structure and workings of the Zane crime family enterprises? Are you saying that he was blind, deaf, and dumb for a decade and never noticed or suspected anything? ... and here is the stinker: why would he know about Joe's criminal enterprises growing up but not know or suspect a single thing about his own family?
You are explaining sweet FA, by the way... you are positing many things that are often contradictory or contrarian. When you say "people explaining shit," you seem to be referring only to yourself. Am I saying you're always wrong... definitely not! That doesn't mean you're always right, though. That's the nature of debate - to look at and interpret what the story presented so far and to speculate future pathways based upon that story.
I have a very large textual document where I pulled dialogues/conversations from the entire game and organized them by content/subject. That way, I was able to present evidence from multiple dialogues that the secret Katie held over William before he fled was a taboo kiss between them. Did you see the backlash I initially got over that? That's not pulling single lines from the script, as you accuse.
I am generally fine with it. That's not the same as saying it's flawless, though.
Maccabbee
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What I am doing is not stating my opinions, necessarily, but valid reasons that your arguments are just as much supposition and bullshit as any others. There are not enough facts in the game to make any conclusions. Comments from people in the game are not facts, they're statements, and could be wrong or lies. You think you know things, but are guessing, and a lot of your assumptions are just that: assumptions.
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Please don't lose Leia we need the Twins !!