Why so many thread just became target practice against Devs?

[Paitryn]

My two cents are simple on this matter. Look at the number of members on this site now. Also really, honestly, without bias count up the number of people shitting on devs in a thread. Its really a small handful that stand out. I would say the number of people you talk about are a small fraction.

However, many of us do support devs or multiple. And those of us that do also complain as well about games. I do not believe in the you dont pay you dont get to complain argument because many games I do intend to pay, but need that dev to step up before I shell out any cash. Or in some cases I think the dev makes more than enough he doesn't need me.

We try to give these guys some kind of free pass because they are indie devs, but we really need to be fair about this to actual professional devs too. The average game dev makes 55k a year. Some of these guys are raking in 6 figure incomes for being "indie". It would be insulting to professionals to give an amateur a free pass and hand him twice as much cash for half assed work. Let's be real here the programming is amateurish, the art is usally someone else's stolen work being repurposed (I include daz stuff here, they didn't make it just tweaked it) and we are shoveling money in their faces in comparison to how much a legitimate develop gets to take home.

We are currently in a time where dozens of new games appear every month with most coming to this website. A growing number even being started by members of this site. But that level of quantity comes with a lot of bad quality that can burn someone out too. Porn games have never actually had great quality, and if anything the bar is raising on that. But it comes from those of us willing to call these devs out for it.

And Ill close with saying that I don't think this discorages those who really want to game dev. I'm working through the development hurtles myself and what I have learned from being here is what works and what doesn't because people freely express what they like and what they don't.

 

[repuindy]

just my thought (I hope it's understandable. sorry for my poor english)
I understand that people can't handle pages of insults but if you want to became a dev and you want to publish a game or others creations you need to be strong enough to accept every comment, sure people can be more costructive but if you want to be a dev you must live with that...I think most of the problems are due to a very high expectations in games, people forget devs are almost all amateur programmer at his/her first or second attempt... Devs too can help people stay away of their works (only people hate their works naturally) with a more complete information about games.
I see many devs on patreon makes game and ask support but the page is almost empty... 4/5 renders an overwiew with some general informations, no list of fetish. That for sure help me to decide if i like or not the theme.

 

[Gomly1980]

Those around last year will probably remember quite a few of us used to have a laugh an giggle in a lot of threads. We kept them moving, kept people engaged and things were light hearted.

Since then things have happened and they have all left. I stopped posting for 4 months and come back but don't really know anyone so the banter has dried up.

Very few people now try and keep things light hearted and have a joke so the dev bashing is more focused because there isn't much else going on in those threads.

I used to love this place but the people that made it fun aren't here anymore and the "atmosphere" (best word I could use to describe it) is completely different now than it was when I took a break in November.

 

[xןʞ]

sry that we ran off the alt accounts like spamming each other I guess?

 

[Gomly1980]

sry that we ran off the alt accounts like spamming each other I guess?

Whatever helps you get through the day.

I do find it quite clever that alt accounts can all type at the same time on discord in different channels and all have different voices when we chat. That's some dedication to alting.

To be fair, not really interested in a debate about it, I was making an observation which tied to why things are a bit shitty now. The fun we did have last year isn't there now, why that is I don't really care, the reasons don't change the outcome.

 

[Yoshiiki]

That's the magic of Internet. Changes are way more rapid, while it may take years irl, on the web it may be months.

 

[repuindy]

Whatever helps you get through the day.

I do find it quite clever that alt accounts can all type at the same time on discord in different channels and all have different voices when we chat. That's some dedication to alting.

To be fair, not really interested in a debate about it, I was making an observation which tied to why things are a bit shitty now. The fun we did have last year isn't there now, why that is I don't really care, the reasons don't change the outcome.

I hope is not my post make you feel like that...
I think there are yet good games and good people here for some light conversation and have some fun..

 

[Gomly1980]

I hope is not my post make you feel like that...
I think there are yet good games and good people here for some light conversation and have some fun..

No, no, no.

There are some threads with friendly chat going on it's just we used to be able to drown out the blatant dev bashing and "toxicity" for want of a better word.

The friendly chat isn't quite as wide spread now so the constant bashing and dickish behavior is more noticeable.

I haven't seen any of that from you, you're good buddy.

 

[Hentami]

From a fresh pair of eyes, I've found F95 to be far more enjoyable then other forums I've used and the feedback far more helpful then frustrating. I've found great people to have long DMs with, even ones who truly dislike everything I make.

There is negativity everywhere on the web, no site is immune to it. But on the other side of the OPs point (and I dont remember the good old days since I wasn't here...maybe they were so much better) I'm glad to be here.

 

[blastwave2k]

i came here because i'm a pirate. i'm still a pirate. sometimes i even drop a dime or two, or a goody here and there, because i love mah fellow pirates. it IS a 100% try it before you buy it world for me, especially for anything that floats around from patreon. i've been burned more than enough to learn that. if i find something i like or see someone who's doing good things, i'll support em. for a little bit. maybe. maybe not.

mainstream game market is absolutely NO better. paid for shill hype in game "review" sites, trailers that don't actually show gameplay. youtube and twitch buddy. love them love them. i will never pre-order a console game or pay for early access on anything again.

made a few friends here tho. so i stick around. =)

 

[Yoshiiki]

i came here because i'm a pirate. i'm still a pirate. sometimes i even drop a dime or two, or a goody here and there, because i love mah fellow pirates. it IS a 100% try it before you buy it world for me, especially for anything that floats around from patreon. i've been burned more than enough to learn that. if i find something i like or see someone who's doing good things, i'll support em. for a little bit. maybe. maybe not.

mainstream game market is absolutely NO better. paid for shill hype in game "review" sites, trailers that don't actually show gameplay. youtube and twitch buddy. love them love them. i will never pre-order a console game or pay for early access on anything again.

made a few friends here tho. so i stick around. =)

Hey, hey, don't say that, it's not constructive criticism or don't comment if you didn't pay, can't remember which one of the "oy, vey, don't talk bad about my project" it was. Heh.
How come Witcher 3 could go without DRMs and still make money? Because people support what they like just like you said. Some can't afford, fine. But you don't know if they won't do it after their financial situation improves.
People didn't do it to devs, scammy devs did it to themselves and pulled rest along.

 

[Ero]

Look at it this way: Animosity is bred largely from the development process created by Patreon. These aren't big name companies working on AAA titles with a multimillion dollar budget. Patrons are literally providing the funding for a game, shelling out cash monthly, and that gives them a sense of entitlement. With the gaming market the way that it is nowadays, you see publishers demanding developers to meet whatever standard they desire. In some ways the situations are quite similar.

Thanks to companies like EA, for example, there's already a ton of bad blood between gamers and creators. The main difference in the situation on this forum is that there's no contractual obligations as far as funding is involved, and Patrons don't fill the role of the typical consumer. Most developers here don't have the budget to make a game without monthly support, and everybody wants to see progress rather than waiting months or years to get a full game at something akin to the mainstream retail price. That being said, I have zero sympathy for the scumbag developers that are knowingly scamming their Patrons. Poor integrity tends to generate an overwhelmingly negative response.

In some ways, Patrons have every right to complain. Those who come here for free content shouldn't pile on, but welcome to the internet. Mob mentality persists. People feel entitled, even if they have no basis to claim anything. As someone said earlier, it really is a small fraction of the community that is causing this issue. Seems like most of us are happy to get our free games and support who we choose to. I know that I'm not really an active member in this community, and I've used this site for months without actually posting anything, but I don't think this is really a unique problem.

 

[Yoshiiki]

In some ways, Patrons have every right to complain. Those who come here for free content shouldn't pile on, but welcome to the internet. Mob mentality persists. People feel entitled, even if they have no basis to claim anything. As someone said earlier, it really is a small fraction of the community that is causing this issue. Seems like most of us are happy to get our free games and support who we choose to. I know that I'm not really an active member in this community, and I've used this site for months without actually posting anything, but I don't think this is really a unique problem.

You know what? I have been thinking about developers faggotry here and there.
There is that retarded mentality that players should report bugs to the dev while it's not their job, so whole idea is disgusting... BUT, people pirating it? They get it for free, so them reporting/hunting bugs seems like a fair exchange.
In the very end, this whole issue, without sugarcoating:
Dev is a damn snowflake and can't handle comments... Maybe, but that's beside the point, main reason seems to be to deal with negative comments so more people jump on patreon hypewagon. A lot of negative comments will work against that. Some tiny, irrelevant percentage will be just angry people writing without any reason, but majority won't.
This is where this bullshitery comes from. This asking for "constructive" comments is just hoping that people will give up with negativity if they can't leave a three word post. Also why they don't mind non-constructive positive comments.
It does seem like it boils down exactly to that. No bad comments pls, gib monies.
Let's see how many defend that with "not me" kind of spin or some other autistic logic.

 

[Aeilion]

It is not false.

 

[Zippity]

Hello,
I've noticed lately that many thread became only massive shit storm against the devs.

Here we are, on a forum where we have the chance to get for free so many games because some "lunatics" decided to pay and share their links with us. And then we find hundreds of message to bash/insult the dev.
I understand that we can see the forum as a way to promoting the game, which is why so many dev themselves interact here, then it can lead to critics, which is good.
Sharing thoughts and critics are the best way to inform potentials supporters (patrons) and if we think that a game is not worthy to be financially supported. But lately, it became only thrashing talks how the dev is a lazy liar, a milk man, a crook....whatever.

If you are a patron, a forum user and feeling scammed, you unpledge and inform others of your misadventure and then you go on the road rage on patreon...why here?

And why so many free user, use this forum to unload their rage toward devs for who they don't pledge for and keep going on and on, and even, attack other users who don't agree with them ! You don't like the game anymore or beleive the dev is no longer a good one, just drop the thread..

I like this place but it became more bitter and angry that it used to be.

I agree, at times some replies in threads become more personal in their response towards a project... But sometimes developers and players/readers, who are fans of a project, also become a bit over sensitive to negative feedback or someone else's opinions, that do not match their own... So it is a double edged sword...

I have seen some folks who reply when they may not like a project and/or an aspect of a project or wish something was added that wasn't there... And when they do, instead of just talking about those aspects, they directly attack the developer themselves... Calling them names or stating things about the developers themselves without either proof or examples to back up their statements... In those cases, especially when it goes overboard, yes I agree that those particular members are most likely immature and/or think they can just spout non-sense because it's the Internet... And I'm also sure that on some rare occasions, the member/s may just be trolling out of boredom or they get off on the misery of others... But I don't really see these sorts of direct attacks as often as some folks claim they are happening...

Developers really need to come to terms that in a public forum (not necessarily internet forums) there will always be both negative and positive feedback... The bad comes with the good, and if they can't deal with it calmly and collectively then they will just cause themselves more stress and anger, then is really needed or deserved... Take what folks say with a grain of salt, and don't be so sensitive to various forms of feedback... If you run around with a chip on your shoulder, or if you are too sensitive to negative comments, then you might as well stop what you're doing and find something else to do... Because it is the nature of the beast for anything created and put out there for the public to experience... Best to just take out of it, the things that you feel might help you, in current and/or future development, and go on... As a developer/author/creator/artist, if you don't agree with some ones feedback, just keep on doing it how you want to do it, and make it how you envision it... Feedback is feedback, good or bad... Don't take it so personal...

Most negative feedback I've seen, usually is not a direct attack on the developers themselves, but on the project itself... It is going to happen, no matter what, somewhere, sometime... And when a developer lashes out, which I've seen happen on occasion, or they throw a temper tantrum, and run away taking their toys with them, then what does that say about the developer? Not good things, and it usually just turns into a shit storm of back and forth sometimes, if the developer decides to get into a text based fist fight... But I also see a lot of developers who are mature and adult enough to take it in stride, and use what ever feedback they receive, taking out of it what they feel might help them, and be the better for it...

I've also seen moments, when fans of a project see someone who doesn't agree with their points of view, and or is critical of a project that the fans love, and they decide to play knights in shining armor defending their territory... These sorts of fans will take several approaches, to either argue with someone's criticism, or pick a fight, and/or get ahold of other fans, to post a bunch of short reviews, to artificially boost the average stars in response to a negative review... That last part doesn't happen all that often really, but I'm sure it happens now and then, especially when you see their responses in the thread, coming to the rescue to criticize someone else's criticism and/or negative feedback...

All of this is the nature of public places where folks can voice their opinions... It happens no matter the website, and no matter the subject when it comes to publicly available stuff... But in these forums, it is rare that matters get too far out of hand before a moderator or other staff member jumps in to quell the over-zealous squabbles... And if a developer feels too hurt or just refuses to see anything other then rainbows and kittens, when it comes to feedback about their projects, then again, I think they need to re-evaluate what they're doing... Or learn to take criticism better... Because it is gonna happen, and should happen, as it's how we learn and grow... But overall, I do agree that personal attacks should be squashed whenever they are found, especially when unfounded...

 

[El bacca Del Chew]

Or learn to take criticism better... Because it is gonna happen, and should happen, as it's how we learn and grow

This, your entire post, is the perfect exemple of what this forum is and should remain. I do not agree with all your reviews (which is a good thing actually), hehe, but it is not the point here. I do not master the english language as you do, then thank you for this perfect and so well argumented post !

 

[muttdoggy]

You know what? I have been thinking about developers faggotry here and there.
There is that retarded mentality that players should report bugs to the dev while it's not their job, so whole idea is disgusting... BUT, people pirating it? They get it for free, so them reporting/hunting bugs seems like a fair exchange.
In the very end, this whole issue, without sugarcoating:
Dev is a damn snowflake and can't handle comments... Maybe, but that's beside the point, main reason seems to be to deal with negative comments so more people jump on patreon hypewagon. A lot of negative comments will work against that. Some tiny, irrelevant percentage will be just angry people writing without any reason, but majority won't.
This is where this bullshitery comes from. This asking for "constructive" comments is just hoping that people will give up with negativity if they can't leave a three word post. Also why they don't mind non-constructive positive comments.
It does seem like it boils down exactly to that. No bad comments pls, gib monies.
Let's see how many defend that with "not me" kind of spin or some other autistic logic.

Um.... while reading this post, certain parts stand out to me. Namely, the following-
"developers faggotry", "retarded mentality", "Dev is a damn snowflake",
"This is where this bullshitery comes from. This asking for "constructive" comments is just hoping that people will give up with negativity if they can't leave a three word post. Also why they don't mind non-constructive positive comments.
It does seem like it boils down exactly to that. No bad comments pls, gib monies."
Oh.. let's not forget "autistic logic".

Jeez.. talk about an angry post. It's attack, attack, attack, then how dare you defend yourself. This sounds like you have a HUGE axe to grind against all developers on Patreon. Now I'm aware you are a developer of an RPG Maker game which is free and I applaud you for that. But that doesn't give you the right to paint all developers on Patreon with the same broad strokes. There are some standout adult game developers on Patreon who deserve our shared respect. But there are countless others with good motivations, some skills, and a true desire to make a game they feel is worth to put out. They're taking a risk and you know that. Give them credit for trying.
Every developer hears "you suck" at one point but what matters is how it's said. Is it so hard for someone to be honest and provide reasons for their statements? How hard is it for someone to spend just a couple more minutes and say why the feel that way?
Look at this example - "You suck. Die in fire." Honestly, what good is this? I mean, this comment sounds like a really angry dude. Did he walk in on another otaku cumming on his daikamura? That's what it sounds like to me.
All many developers are asking for is this - "I tried to play the game but I could not advance very far because the mechanics are shit. I was randomly teleported all over the place when trying to enter this town on the world map. In one instance, I was warped to a sex scene where I was getting assraped by a mutant ninja turtle. That made me ragequit so fast even my grandmother's head spun and she's dead. Please fix those issues!" Note.. he's still angry and you know it. But what he did was he specifically said what happened that made him angry. And getting assraped by a mutant ninja turtle would make most people angry except for some members.
And that's another point- both developers and members all have different tastes and fetishes as well as varying degrees of sanity and competence. It would be wise to be aware of that and to provide the specific reason that people feel the way they do. Most people are intelligent enough to realize that this forum has rules and they are requested to abide by that. A little respect goes a long way.

 

[wewlad]

By that same token, why do so many people feel the need to defend every developer like mindless lapdogs when they genuinely screw up?

 

[Aeilion]

Most people are intelligent enough to realize that this forum has rules and they are requested to abide by that. A little respect goes a long way.

Everything is here...

In a family-sized community, wanting to change things through exchanges as can be seen in this thread, I can understand. It avoids strict rules in a "family" atmosphere.

But we must realize that this is not the case here. This is a community important enough to make things as simple as:
The rules do it all and if anything bother you then turn yourself to these rules to either change them or understand that it's like that and that's it.

I doubt that there is here a rule prohibiting the freedom of expression, even in the form of 3 words. And even less a rule that would be able to measure the constructive side of a message or its relevance.

Because from my point of view all this talk that we do (yes me too) on this thread is really not relevant and constructive.
Are you really trying to change people's behavior? Or to change the rules?
Do you really think that these famous three-word messages are the result of a lack of information, of knowledge?
No, we are only exchanging points of view on a subject. We express what we think or feel. And that's exactly what those who are the target of this whole thread do.
They are just people who feel that what they want to express can be done (or not) in 3 words and they have no obligation to explain why and how.

If the message is really degrading and a lack of respect for the developer, there are moderators to enforce the rules, it seems to me. And end point.
If it is not the case then I do not see where the problem is.

If we start criticizing the points of view or the way to express and build a message, I think we will not finish ...

To be quite sincere I do not like idiots, but I learned that they had the same rights as me so I live with them. (Trying to avoid them as much as possible)
While knowing that I'm probably the idiot of another.

 

[Zippity]

By that same token, why do so many people feel the need to defend every developer like mindless lapdogs when they genuinely screw up?

Well, remember that due to the fact that this genre revolves around a emotional and sensitive subject of sex... Typically, a nature of the beast is either lots of emotion, lots of hormones, and/or lack of maturity... So you will sometimes get someone who is emotionally invested in a project, and then feel it's their sworn duty to defend it, regardless of how rational and/or irrational they respond to someone who dares to attack the thing they are a fan of... It just shows either their mental state and/or their openness (or lack there of) to others ideas/opinions... If they are mature and adult about it, they take the high road... But it they are immature and too emotionally wrapped up in a project, they might just lash out as if the attack were personally against themselves rather then the digital text and pictures... Some fans are fanatical about what they like... Add to all that, the fact that some folks are under the false sense that the Internet is completely anonymous and they can say what they like, how they like it, whenever they like to, without repercussions and/or getting caught, so they lash out against someone else's thoughts, ideas, and opinions just because...

That's why we have moderators and website staff members to help police non-sense and people trying to pick fights over an opinion they don't agree with... I, myself, get the occasional member/s who do not agree with my opinions, most are pretty adult about their responses, and some lash out like a child throwing a tantrum... In those extreme cases, I report them, put them on ignore, and go about my business... I don't let myself get pulled into their trap... And I never expect folks to agree with my opinions and/or general posts... That's why it's called an opinion...