VN Ren'Py Zero End [v0.2.5c] [Stolen Rose]

[Canto Forte]

Well ... the fact is MC is right now the original all powerful mother of all mosters, but the endless are another goddess just like her. Conclusion: Lilith will never let MC suffer a defeat, he is her vessel. He is also the Emperor - the perfect being capable of housing the immense powers of the Emperor: the word, the touch, the worldbuilding—basically Preacher for those who watched the show.

As such, MC is capable of channeling the Endless as their champion, as he is physically and mentally a god, after Lilith put the word of God into his soul, his mind is also protected. MC starts doing inchantments all around this game to call on different deities, so posession from a called upon deity is what Marie and MC have been studying all along: MC is wary o fLilith precisely because of his body: perfect host for Lilith, or Adam, or Eve to possess and thrive for eons, to be basically reborn - Dr. Fate and how the helmet gives the power of the allpowerful gods of order whenever the guy who wears it becomes posessed with them.

MC is the sorcerer who has a pact with Silver and with Lilith that nobody will harm his friends.

Brandon is a fighter and is doing fighter stuff all over this game. Him being a Shield is the most cop out nonsense in this game: Brandon puts Swansong in a coma with a punch - anyone could kill her then and there - but somehow she survives and MC and everyone else is whatever.

Any demon hunter, Constantine being the worst, will go prepare to the fight, but Keira is always outmatched, outperformed, outsmarted, outskilled by Brandon, MC, basically anyone else. There is the total hindrance of being all guts and nothing more.

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isn't Brandon already stronger than Keira even before he got the call? guess that's what they call peaking in high school

Brandon puts Swansong and Keira both into a coma when he fights them. Brandon is a Sword for all throughout this game.
Good one in making him a coward and a dumb idiot for being the Tank who has to SPEARHEAD THE CHARGE.
Brandon has to be in the front lines with how his stamina and resistance work, but if he is a coward, how would that work?

 

[N1ghtcrawler]

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All you do is dismiss any perceived point of disconnect between the player and the player character with "that's just how he feels at the time, it's not about logic, it's about emotion!". Well no shit Sherlock, shouldn't I (the player) have at least a say in how he feels concerning the most impactful event in the game? Is that unheard of in a narrative game that isn't a KN? You treat this interactive game like a book and ignore the fact it actually has a player controlled character. Just because one aspect of his worldview aligns with your values. It's a narrative, choice-driven game. Including a choice for the PC to accommodate a viewpoint shared by the majority of players using him, can never be to its detriment. Especially when said viewpoint is literally "killing the rapist of a loved one, is the right thing to do".

The author is not obligated to do what you ask. Games/VNs with choices treat those choices very differently. Some allow the player to create a character from scratch, some give the player the right to influence the character's personality, but others - only give the player the freedom of choice, while the character's personality, their worldview, is not subject to change. If the author did the latter, it means he has that narrative necessity.

Branching narratives can still center on fixed character psychology. Choices influence actions/consequences, not core identity. There are VNs on the site that follow this narrative philosophy, but I won't mention them in a thread about another VN. Instead, the examples of video games:

Witcher 3: You make choices, but Geralt's cynicism, moral code, and paternal drive are immutable.
Disco Elysium: You shape Harry's coping mechanisms, but his amnesia, self-destruction, and haunted past are non-negotiable.

Caleb's guilt isn't bad design. It's intentional narrative constraint. The story asks "Given who this broken man is, how does he move forward?" Not "Should he feel broken at all?" The latter destroys the story's purpose.

And I'm sure the author knew there would be backlash. I mean, some people on this site can go nuts for absolutely ridiculous reasons.

In this case, the player frustration is legit, but that's not what our argument was about. I clearly see how you fundamentally shift your arguments from interpreting the game's text to demanding that the text match your preferences - and now hide that shift under criticism of game design. Now you're pretending that the lack of choice is what we were arguing about. If it's not intentional, then next time express your thoughts with more clarity.

Actually, you know that, screw it. You're now accusing me of ignoring that the game is interactive. First it was deflection, now it's projection. Obviously this is done intentionally. I'm tired of just catching you red-handed.

You spent this entire debate insisting the game's writing proved Caleb's revenge was "justified" and Marie "toxic" by calling Caleb's guilt "self-loathing nonsense" and "martyr complex", Daniel death "a positive by any measure" and Marie's trauma response "relationship-killing". Your goal was to prove that the game's own logic supports Caleb's revenge as morally correct. After I gave you a detailed response to each of these points - that you were rewriting the game to give Caleb an imaginary justification - you completely ignored them and changed your tune to "I just didn't like it". Like I said, alright. But the rest of your post was a moral appeal poorly disguised as poll argument. Now you're doing retroactive writing and accusing me of treating the game like a book. You want to argue about game design, own that it's a new topic, but don't pretend your takes on Caleb's "righteousness" were ever about player impact. That's motte-and-bailey tactic.

What's funny, I didn't want to argue with someone about their preferences and personal values, I saw your post about Revenge Bad and ignored it because I'm not interested. I'm here to discuss the story, the characters, their doings. That's it. You started a discussion with me that touched on those subjects and then pulled it in a completely different direction.

Just because one aspect of his worldview aligns with your values.

I never endorsed Caleb's morality.

My arguments focus on four things:
Caleb's guilt is foundational to the story,
His guilt was inevitable given his character,
The story explores consequences, not moral absolutes,
It doesn't matter whether killing a rapist is justice or not.

This is textual analysis, not moral endorsement.
The only exception was the rape of Marie. But if somewhere I overlooked and went beyond those limits, I apologize.

I'm actually more interested in antiheroes and villains who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty or have a twisted worldview (like Marie or the girls in my sigs). Doesn't mean I agree with them or am afraid to criticize them. But Caleb is just too well written. I think he'll end up on my list of favorite MCs.

Dev wouldn't even have to do away with the whole guilt/monster thing that is admittedly a core character/story theme (and does make him interesting). All they had to do, is include a choice to settle with and own it (the demon daniel scene would have been perfect for this). In the words of one of the best "guilty" characters in fiction: "World needs bad men...we keep other bad men from the door." Such a simple idea, but apparently so hard to grasp for some people. Especially the type who would just handwave it as "tOxiC maScuLiniTy"

The Dweller trial isn't about Caleb embracing his monster, but about integrating it without glorification (The King). Forcing a "bad men keep order" choice would destroy his personal redemption arc, undermine the Ceremony of Ash's thematic weight, and reduce the narrative to edgy nihilism.

Rust Cohle's quote is cute but misread. His line justifies systemic violence (the police). But Caleb's act was personal, not protective and self-serving. Applying Rust's philosophy here is like quoting 1984 to endorse tattling.

Your "simple idea" isn't hard to grasp, it's just too small for this story.

And about Marie, yeah...no. She genuinely meant that. You know why? Because we have seen her past. There wasn't a point in the story where she wasn't protective of Daniel above all else, Caleb and even her own self included. She is the one who resented and pushed away her "loved one", whom she was perfectly fine keeping in the dark despite knowing what was going on with Daniel. Indicating (after the prom) her rapist being left undisturbed in any way, was of paramount importance. Even if she had to sacrifice her relationship with her supposed soulmate for it. And when that didn't happen and the "love of her life" did do something about it? Oh boy...there was hell to pay. She involved him in a ritual so cruel and vindictive, with far larger impact on him than her, that just its mention shocks people aware of its nature. She literally attempted (and partially succeeded), to destroy her supposed soulmate's ability to ever love again (after she had already dropped him like trash), because he dared convincing her rapist to suicide. Not even kill him outright. If that doesn't convince you that psycho sees the death of her rapist as cardinal sin trumping all others, I don't know what to tell you.

Marie's post-rape resentment is a documented trauma response. Caleb himself admits he misinterpreted her needs.

Caleb manipulated Daniel who was guilty into suicide.

But Marie orchestrated the murder of an innocent guard (if I'm not mistaken), repeatedly put Caleb and his friends in danger and used them as baits, brutally murdered her master, dismembered his body and nailed it to the wall as art. She also killed those who disagreed with her rule.

Her moral high ground is nonexistent. Her condemnation of Caleb is pure hypocrisy. When she claims "I've never done anything as bad as you", she's either delusional or lying and weaponizing his guilt.

Even if we accept your theory as true, I still don't see how that proves that her view is accepted and propagated by the game. We see how Caleb seeks redemption, while Marie doubles down on evil.

Claiming the game "propagated" her worldview is like arguing Breaking Bad glorifies Walter White because he kept saying "I did it for my family". I've met his defenders who, like you, take everything the character says at face value. Except narratively the show disproves it.

 

[Avaron1974]

I don't understand why her being a hunter should automatically make her stronger than the vampire.

I repeat, she was called, by an Archangel, to hunt and kill monsters, Vampires included.

That kinda needs said person to be strong enough to do the job they were called up to do.

If your job is the sword branch of the hunters and the entire job description is "kill shit" and you keep getting your arse kicked by the very things you are supposed to be killing ....... you probably should be looking for a new job in a safer environment.

Also... her connection to the vampire is has nothing to do with her being a hunter. Maybe she recieved the call as a result of her experience, but ultimately she just wants revenge.

She received the call as a child, she's been a hunter damn near her whole life.

While Rayne can acquire strength under certain circumstances, but it's not a competition.

Rayne isn't a hunter, she isn't built for killing, she is a Succubus. Her job description is "fuck shit". Her being able to have both halves co-operate into a lilim has nothing to do with Keira's job.

Keira is designed, by Divine purpose, to be a killer of monsters.

Rayne is designed to be a slayer of sperm, hunter of horniness, the ultimate Willy Warrior. Even as a Lilim she's still just a higher form of Succubus. Powerful but still built for fucking.

She's a great love interest with some really adorable moments ...... but she's a shit hunter.

 

[Dark Silence]

Ok, what am I missing here?

 

[SlowGoesSlow]

Ok, what am I missing here?
View attachment 5007047

 

[Avaron1974]

Ok, what am I missing here?
View attachment 5007047

I'm missing 3.

 

[Melody Is Dead]

I repeat, she was called, by an Archangel, to hunt and kill monsters, Vampires included.

That kinda needs said person to be strong enough to do the job they were called up to do.

If your job is the sword branch of the hunters and the entire job description is "kill shit" and you keep getting your arse kicked by the very things you are supposed to be killing ....... you probably should be looking for a new job in a safer environment.



She received the call as a child, she's been a hunter damn near her whole life.



Rayne isn't a hunter, she isn't built for killing, she is a Succubus. Her job description is "fuck shit". Her being able to have both halves co-operate into a lilim has nothing to do with Keira's job.

Keira is designed, by Divine purpose, to be a killer of monsters.

Rayne is designed to be a slayer of sperm, hunter of horniness, the ultimate Willy Warrior. Even as a Lilim she's still just a higher form of Succubus. Powerful but still built for fucking.

She's a great love interest with some really adorable moments ...... but she's a shit hunter.

You don't know that. You don't know how strong Swansong is compared to the avg. Vampire. Just read the avn and accept to story for what it is. Swansong killed her parents. Keira wants revenge, but she is not strong enough to do that herself, yet? and she is willing to sacrifice a lot to get that power. It's a common premise and Stolen Rose is doing a good job at executing it.

Her being a hunter does not automatically make her stronger than the monsters she hunts. It's that easy or that would be too easy. Whichever way you wanna look at it.

 

[Melody Is Dead]

Ok, what am I missing here?
View attachment 5007047

How did you unlock Memory 3?

 

[Dark Silence]

I'm missing 3.

Show me yours and I'll show you mine.
3. Comes when you have 1 & 2. Just talk to Leah.

 

[Dark Silence]

View attachment 5007057

Nope. That's not 4. MC doesn't know wtf happened except he left.

 

[SlowGoesSlow]

Nope. That's not 4. MC doesn't know wtf happened except he left.

Spoiler: I'm confused

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[Dark Silence]

Spoiler: I'm confused

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Hmm Yeah. Not like that for me. Screen goes black and then both Lilith and I feel something, but... there's actually nothing. So, must be something earlier in the game that I'm missing.

 

[Avaron1974]

You don't know that. You don't know how strong Swansong is compared to the avg. Vampire. Just read the avn and accept to story for what it is. Swansong killed her parents. Keira wants revenge, but she is not strong enough to do that herself, yet? and she is willing to sacrifice a lot to get that power. It's a common premise and Stolen Rose is doing a good job at executing it.

Her being a hunter does not automatically make her stronger than the monsters she hunts. It's that easy or that would be too easy. Whichever way you wanna look at it.

Swansong was held to a draw by Caleb (if you play it right), the same Caleb who also beat Keira in a fight near the start. The same Caleb who isn't a hunter nor is he known for his combat prowess.

Swansong was pushed back, later knocked out, by Brandon before getting the call he accepted.

Keira should have, at the very least, been able to beat Caleb and be somewhat on par with Brandon considering she's been training her whole life.

Doesn't matter if she's stronger than Swansong if she isn't even stronger than at least one of the two very human members of the group.

Brandon did more before becoming a hunter than Keira has so far in the whole game.

Here's the thing, if you hid the dialogue and showed someone who hasn't played it everything that happens and then asked them to pick out the hunter of monsters, I can guarantee they would not pick Keira.

I can't claim to know what Rose is going for with her character, I can only go off what i've seen in the game and so far all i've seen is Keira lose every single fight she's been in whether it be against man or monster.

She even failed to kill Swansong while she was sleeping.

Now I adore Keira as a love interest and I think she's great at infiltration. That being said, she IS a shit hunter. By all rights, she should be dead, the only reason she isn't is because Swansong seems more interested in fucking with her. From Swansongs point of view, she isn't a threat at all, she's dealt with her casually by using her as a pawn to mess with Caleb.

With Rayne only being able to go Lilim if both halves are in sync, that leaves Brandon as the only reliable choice to take into a physical fight. Keira hasn't even been able to hold her own, she has very literally been beat to shit every single time.

We can keep arguing in circles but nothing is going to change my mind on Keira. She's a great character but she's also a shit hunter. The payoff needs to be huge because so far her hunting skills have been a massive disappointment.

Lets look at it another way. Caleb has been holding his own against people far, far more powerful than him by playing to his strengths. Keira has been dropped every single time she's had a fight because she has no strengths. Fighting is her one and only job and she is the weakest member of the group. If Rayne hadn't gone Lilim mode, they would not have survived. If Brandon and Caleb hadn't been able to hold their ground, she would not have survived.

She hasn't made it this far because of her own skill, she's made it this far because of everyone elses.

At the start she's all "I'mma gonna kill Swansong" and i'm all "you go girl, i'm rooting for ya". By the end she's still all "i'mma gonna kill Swansong" and by then i'm all "please stop, you're embarrassing yourself".

Love her character for the most part, she's one of my fave love interests ... still think she needs a career change. Probably an accountant or some shit. She heals quick, the dreaded papercuts wouldn't even phase her. As long as it doesn't involve fighting because there is only so much secondhand shame I can manage.

 

[SlowGoesSlow]

Swansong was held to a draw by Caleb (if you play it right), the same Caleb who also beat Keira in a fight near the start. The same Caleb who isn't a hunter nor is he known for his combat prowess.

Swansong was pushed back, later knocked out, by Brandon before getting the call he accepted.

Keira should have, at the very least, been able to beat Caleb and be somewhat on par with Brandon considering she's been training her whole life.

Doesn't matter if she's stronger than Swansong if she isn't even stronger than at least one of the two very human members of the group.

Brandon did more before becoming a hunter than Keira has so far in the whole game.

Here's the thing, if you hid the dialogue and showed someone who hasn't played it everything that happens and then asked them to pick out the hunter of monsters, I can guarantee they would not pick Keira.

I can't claim to know what Rose is going for with her character, I can only go off what i've seen in the game and so far all i've seen is Keira lose every single fight she's been in whether it be against man or monster.

She even failed to kill Swansong while she was sleeping.

Now I adore Keira as a love interest and I think she's great at infiltration. That being said, she IS a shit hunter. By all rights, she should be dead, the only reason she isn't is because Swansong seems more interested in fucking with her. From Swansongs point of view, she isn't a threat at all, she's dealt with her casually by using her as a pawn to mess with Caleb.

With Rayne only being able to go Lilim if both halves are in sync, that leaves Brandon as the only reliable choice to take into a physical fight. Keira hasn't even been able to hold her own, she has very literally been beat to shit every single time.

We can keep arguing in circles but nothing is going to change my mind on Keira. She's a great character but she's also a shit hunter. The payoff needs to be huge because so far her hunting skills have been a massive disappointment.

Lets look at it another way. Caleb has been holding his own against people far, far more powerful than him by playing to his strengths. Keira has been dropped every single time she's had a fight because she has no strengths. Fighting is her one and only job and she is the weakest member of the group. If Rayne hadn't gone Lilim mode, they would not have survived. If Brandon and Caleb hadn't been able to hold their ground, she would not have survived.

She hasn't made it this far because of her own skill, she's made it this far because of everyone elses.

At the start she's all "I'mma gonna kill Swansong" and i'm all "you go girl, i'm rooting for ya". By the end she's still all "i'mma gonna kill Swansong" and by then i'm all "please stop, you're embarrassing yourself".

Love her character for the most part, she's one of my fave love interests ... still think she needs a career change. Probably an accountant or some shit. She heals quick, the dreaded papercuts wouldn't even phase her. As long as it doesn't involve fighting because there is only so much secondhand shame I can manage.

Keira only loses to Caleb if his god is Astarte if you're talking about their fight in the woods. I agree with all your other points though.

 

[Avaron1974]

Keira only loses to Caleb if his god is Astarte if you're talking about their fight in the woods. I agree with all your other points though.

My mistake on that one, I did pick Astarte but forgot he channeled her in the fight.

Thankyou for the correction.

 

[imzahai]

She says near the start she is one of the swords, the fighters. It's her job to hunt and kill monsters.

and our troubled-but-omfg Sexy Swansong hasn't killed her, so she can't be entirely shyte

 

[Melody Is Dead]

Swansong was held to a draw by Caleb (if you play it right), the same Caleb who also beat Keira in a fight near the start. The same Caleb who isn't a hunter nor is he known for his combat prowess.

Swansong was pushed back, later knocked out, by Brandon before getting the call he accepted.

Keira should have, at the very least, been able to beat Caleb and be somewhat on par with Brandon considering she's been training her whole life.

Doesn't matter if she's stronger than Swansong if she isn't even stronger than at least one of the two very human members of the group.

Brandon did more before becoming a hunter than Keira has so far in the whole game.

Here's the thing, if you hid the dialogue and showed someone who hasn't played it everything that happens and then asked them to pick out the hunter of monsters, I can guarantee they would not pick Keira.

I can't claim to know what Rose is going for with her character, I can only go off what i've seen in the game and so far all i've seen is Keira lose every single fight she's been in whether it be against man or monster.

She even failed to kill Swansong while she was sleeping.

Now I adore Keira as a love interest and I think she's great at infiltration. That being said, she IS a shit hunter. By all rights, she should be dead, the only reason she isn't is because Swansong seems more interested in fucking with her. From Swansongs point of view, she isn't a threat at all, she's dealt with her casually by using her as a pawn to mess with Caleb.

With Rayne only being able to go Lilim if both halves are in sync, that leaves Brandon as the only reliable choice to take into a physical fight. Keira hasn't even been able to hold her own, she has very literally been beat to shit every single time.

We can keep arguing in circles but nothing is going to change my mind on Keira. She's a great character but she's also a shit hunter. The payoff needs to be huge because so far her hunting skills have been a massive disappointment.

Lets look at it another way. Caleb has been holding his own against people far, far more powerful than him by playing to his strengths. Keira has been dropped every single time she's had a fight because she has no strengths. Fighting is her one and only job and she is the weakest member of the group. If Rayne hadn't gone Lilim mode, they would not have survived. If Brandon and Caleb hadn't been able to hold their ground, she would not have survived.

She hasn't made it this far because of her own skill, she's made it this far because of everyone elses.

At the start she's all "I'mma gonna kill Swansong" and i'm all "you go girl, i'm rooting for ya". By the end she's still all "i'mma gonna kill Swansong" and by then i'm all "please stop, you're embarrassing yourself".

Love her character for the most part, she's one of my fave love interests ... still think she needs a career change. Probably an accountant or some shit. She heals quick, the dreaded papercuts wouldn't even phase her. As long as it doesn't involve fighting because there is only so much secondhand shame I can manage.

What are you talking about? Did you even read the text boxes. Caleb has been stalling for time. He had no chance against Swansong. Then he used the power given to Brandon when he received the call and redirected it to hit Swansong. Caleb's been all about wits and trickery. Until now he has not displayed any great power except for his knowledge. He has been borrowing or "stealing" it left and right. Caleb being able to hold his own against people way stronger is one of the appealing details of the story. It's super hard to write stuff like that without it coming of as plot armor.

He also has no chance against Keira UNLESS you pick Astarte as your divinity. He also acknowledges that he can not teach to Keira what he's been doing because Astarte has been guiding his movements.

Yeah... Brandon is strong. That's the one thing he's good at and he is always been portrayed as such. I don't understand why you have an issue with that.

 

[mahligl]

Caleb's been all about wits and trickery.

Repeatingly throughout the game, including I think three of four scenes when his internal monologue amounts to 'I'm fucked if they get what I'm doing now'. There are exceptions, like in one of the endings, but...

I admit that this game can be rather misty in its presentation, BUT this vampire-business never seemed strange to me. Is it because I've conditioned by the world of darkness, where, as a rule, they're superhumans, when compared to almost everyone, and Khabib Nurmagomedov will be OBLITERATED in five minutes by any gangrel? I think more or less the same is communicated in the game more than once, with Brandon not folding down immediately treated as a surprise to everyone.

More than that, it's mentioned that Keira is not a fighting type, but an infiltrator, who can, for instance, prepare and set the explosives in the building, but in the actual fight she is fucked.

Maybe she is not a good infiltrator as well, given that she's very reckless, but that's not the point right now.

 

[Avaron1974]

Yeah... Brandon is strong. That's the one thing he's good at and he is always been portrayed as such. I don't understand why you have an issue with that.

You seem to have missed my point about Brandon entirely.

My point is, he did far better against the Vampire than the person chosen and trained to kill them long before he accepted the call himself.

When he did accept the call, he put Swansong down in one kick, broke her shoulder and forced her to retreat.

You also missed my point about Caleb. He's managed to hold his own against everything far more powerful than him by playing to his strengths.

Neither Brandon nor Caleb have been trained to deal with anything they have been dealing with yet not only kept themselves alive but others around them.

Keira was chosen as a child, trained her whole life to kill monsters and has been beaten and almost killed every time she's been in a fight.

Without Caleb and Brandon, Keira would be dead. The only time she's been useful is when Caleb forced her out of the fight and made her invisible to steal a book.

Caleb saved Keira's life on a couple of occasions. Rayne was pushed into Lilim mode to save her life and Brandon accepted the call which saved her life.

Keira has failed on multiple occasions to do the only thing her job requires. Her entire purpose since childhood has been to hun and kill monsters and yet she's been saved on multiple occasions by people outside of that order who aren't trained to hunt and kill monsters.

Brandon accepted the call and did as his very first act the one thing the trained hunter could not do.

Not only that but Brandon went toe to toe briefly with the most powerful Vampire in existence and hurt her. Brandon, in his first day on the job, has done more than the one person that's trained for years.

My entire point has been Brandon and Caleb are good at what they do, Keira is not. Keira is only alive thanks to Brandon, Caleb and Rayne.

The conclusion of my point is Vampire Keira best be a huge improvement because hunter Keira was a huge disappointment.

More than that, it's mentioned that Keira is not a fighting type, but an infiltrator, who can, for instance, prepare and set the explosives in the building, but in the actual fight she is fucked.

Wrong.

Keira is a sword, the fighting type. Infiltration is one of her jobs.

Spoiler: case 1

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Spoiler: case 2

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Spoiler: case 3

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The fact she chose to specialise in infiltration doesn't stop the fact she is trained to hunt and kill monsters, that is her whole purpose. She received a divine calling to do that very job.

Lets not also forget she failed at infiltrating Swansongs dwelling and couldn't even get her while the Vamp was sleeping.

 

[mahligl]

Wrong

Thanks for that!