Others The Shimmering Horizon and Cursed Blacksmith [v0.82f] [Ason]

[Ogrexin]

So this is all just my opinion but I do disagree with you. The game is a roguelike and dealing with randomness is actually part of the game. It's how the game can stay fresh and has almost infinite replay value.

rouge-like replay value rng and 'pray to the rng gods' are very different rng models
My problem isnt dealing with randomness, it's when the randomness affects the core gameplay mechanic that it's a problem
The game is 'strategic' only when you get lucky, otherwise, you'll be gang raped when you try to switch a weapon to a movement based on just so you can run away from the 7 enemies surronding you, too bad you'll likely still die and get erosion.
And dying once, especially in the 3rd section, is VERY bad, you're unlikely to make it to the boss if you clear out every floor, so your best option is to just rush portals.
And even then, if you get to a boss on high erosion, it's an instant loss, 30+ minutes wasted because of something you couldn't control.

Now regarding difficulty. I disagree that the randomness has so much of an impact that it can effect your runs that significantly.
This is because the game does NOT have too many instances of multiplicative probability.

It most certaintly does, you can get spawned in a room full of enemies (it is NOT rare, and in fact very common) barely win, then step on a trap, boom, one death, nvm the enemy spawner, just 1 confusion trap can finish you, and enemies arent affected by them, purely you, which i think is a pretty stupid mechanic (yes, they should be affected even by the positive ones, not like there are lots of those)

This game has consistenly made me feel like my choice doesnt matter, no matter if a runs starts out good, i'll always be fucked over by lady luck, i don't think this is good difficulty design.

I do agree that some of these bosses have way too much health tho. 3rd and 4th boss especially. Tenacity's damage increase is not keeping up with the tankyness of the bosses. The regular enemies are well balanced though.

It's not just the 3rd or 4th boss (but it seems the 4th one wont be any better) 1st and 2nd are equally fucked up. And it's not that they get to tanky
The 1st boss literally moves at the same speed as you, notmally games would make bigger enemies slow moving, otherwise they would chase the player all around and easily kill them (sound familiar?)
But thankfully, they had some resemblance of a soul, i didnt have enough trouble with this one to complain
The 2nd boss though, goddamn, talk about a difficulty spike, endlessly spawning enemies, required constant movement (which you may have to sacrifice because of tanky ass crystals)
Speaking of crystals, why THE FUCK does every single boss spawn them, not every boss has to spawn enemies, not every single one has to spawn crystals.

This is randomness stacked on randomness. It's very dangerous in game design.

I havent played baldur's gate enough to know but atleast you have parties there, you have several actions YOU CAN take other than attacking that could help you, and there isnt an endless unfair combat encounter after another, you actually get chances to do 'long rests' or whatever they're called, that's all on that




I should make it clear that i dont have anything against you, you can have your opinion, nor am i actually trying to argue, just venting at best

 

[Ogrexin]

This has been my worst gaming experience in my entire life.

single handedly made the game from a 4/5 to a 3/5.

This isnt exegeration, or jokes, genuinely the worst experience in gaming ever.

The 3rd boss is such an awfully designed mess that i'm only 2 stages away from sending someone death threats.

You would think that having 5 health and focus potions, 3 soul drop and 3 digging weapons, and low erosion, that you would win EVEN if you get the worst luck.

I couldn't be more wrong.

Keywords: 3rd boss, third boss.

DO NOT DIG, atleast not how much people tell you to, skip a section or 2 based on your choice, but do NOT outrun the boss, the stupid fucking idiot will literally get stuck.
Take him out once or twice, the way people phrase this strat makes you think you can just ignore the boss until the end. But that's wrong, if you have the opportunity get him to the next phase.
This should be obvious, but you're better of getting good ranged skills instead of movement skills, the fucker runs around non stop even until the end.
All of this is important because if you didnt know, theres THREE FUCKING crystals at the end
So you have the enemies naturally spawned, enemies spawned from the crystal, and the enemies that were already there, you WILL lose if you don't have a ranged skill without a distance limit.

Anyways i'm off to go to the mental hospital and see if i secretly have a mental illness, cause this game might have poor difficulty design, for me to spend 4 hours on this despite the preparation is a clear sign mental degradation.

Extra note: Take some drugs to reduce the stress of playing this game

 

[mcflappyjaw]

*cries of anguish and anger*

Can I have your (or anyone's with a drill) savescum file? I want to test this myself

 

[Ogrexin]

I do still have the file but i can't upload the save since it's .rpgsave


It's not looking good honestly
Will likely posst more rants in the future
Girls have become way tankier, and there's this new bitch that has multi hit wide range unblockable skills which she can seemingly spam, on top of already spawning enemies AND being strong enough to survive 2 cursed swords

I died on the 3rd floor, based on the pattern of one floor being added i'll assume there's 6 of 2 sections
That's excluding the boss

My stress is already rising

 

[mcflappyjaw]

How do I put this, I think you're playing with the wrong mindset. Like you're mashing Z really hard instead of approaching with a calculating, almost mathematical approach. Don't focus on how bullshit strong they are, Focus on becoming bullshit strong yourself, By now you can get some dirty skills.

In this floor, you're gonna meet enemies you can't beat in a fair fight. In the next floor, you're gonna meet enemies you can't beat in an unfair fight. This is intended. You're meant to exploit everything you can and fight dirty. (or avoid the fight altogether). You always have more options than you realize.

 

[ThatMintMan]

In this floor, you're gonna meet enemies you can't beat in a fair fight. In the next floor, you're gonna meet enemies you can't beat in an unfair fight. This is intended. You're meant to exploit everything you can and fight dirty. (or avoid the fight altogether). You always have more options than you realize.

I reckon you don't realize what you're saying here. Either exploit the game, or flat out run. Even in an unfair fight in your favor, you lose. That may be intentional all one wants. That doesn't make it good design. This is the very problem I've had with the game as it is being made. Grind. Rng. Exploit. Prepare to the fullest. And then lose because the boss has enough to tank it all with no issues.

This kind of difficulty is acceptable when there's multiple difficulty selections. A straight up cheating enemies difficulty? We see that in multiple games. Original Doom would spawn in additional enemies randomly. Civ literally hands the higher difficulty AI more resources to overwhelm you with. But a cheating difficulty being standard? Not even Dark Souls has that. Even Dark Souls is fair. This ain't. It's why I fish saves. Ain't no point in putting that much effort into just getting the art. This game is just flat out poorly designed.

 

[Ogrexin]

I think you're playing with the wrong mindset.

This isnt a complex game where it requires a different mindset, or have one all together.

Like you're mashing Z really hard instead of approaching with a calculating, almost mathematical approach.

The game's apperent 'strategic' aspect is very 'minimal'
And that's not to say it isnt strategic and you can just bumrush, but it isnt that deep of a game as i've said
In moments where things dont look completely hopeless, your instincts take use the game knowledge you've acquired and quickly come up with a plan
I have a stun/item, use it on the strongest enemy
Take care of the generics, there were alot of them, half your hp left
Strong enemy is unfrozen, they move towards you
You have no healing items, only 1 focus
The enemy uses their wide range skill, you have no movement skills to dodge
Use the focus, you got through unscatched
The enemy is infront of you know
Exchange of damage, basic attacks, skills whatever you wish
15 hp left, you survived, and safe
This is about as complex it's going to get, alot of times you dont have the leisure of choosing something like attributes since changing weapons takes a turn, and a turn here is basically the border between life and death

And like i said "where things dont look completely hopeless" alot of the times they do
Sure you can take care of the hopeless situation by getting downed or using Cursed sword yourself, but making a sacrifice in a moment you had no fault it just feels... bad, like really bad and really frustrating

Oh and this completely ignores the element of traps, which you only sometimes have the chance to acticate perception on
Sure, there are damage increases, but half the time the defense or damage buff isnt the one you want, only useful thing is erosion reduction and health when you're in a tight situation
You virtually can't do anything about them, true sight potions are almost as rare as evolution stones
This element of rng isnt fun, there has to be some sort of counterbalance to this

Don't focus on how bullshit strong they are, Focus on becoming bullshit strong yourself, By now you can get some dirty skills.

This is false optimism, being optimistic in this game is thinking you can win an encounter, not that you can become bullshit strong
The game is never and never will be in your favor, and it shouldn't be like that.
A hard game isnt unfair, a hard game requires effort to beat and succeed in, people will call it unfair because they do not spend the effort to actually achieve their goals
There is no 'effort' you can spend in here, you can only waste time as you stepped on an enemy spawner trapped after barely surviving 10 enemies in one room which you spawned in


The enemy i talked about litteraly survived a few of my hits (atleast 100 damage each) and FUCKING TWO CURSED SWORD EXPLOSIONS
FUCKING TWO
What in the ever loving fuck was i supposed to 'stratagize'? I used a focus potion and her 20hp multi hit PER HIT move still hit every single one shredding my hp into nothingness, the enemies are stupid fucking powerful, and the speed at which i am growing stronger does not compare

In this floor, you're gonna meet enemies you can't beat in a fair fight. In the next floor, you're gonna meet enemies you can't beat in an unfair fight. This is intended. You're meant to exploit everything you can and fight dirty.

You're being far to romantic for a game
There is no such thing as honor or playing dirty
You can only attack with your weapon, or with it's skill, you can throw things if that's what you decide to be the best option, and that's it
There is no mechanics to exploit, the time i tried to play dirty was like 20 gameplay hours ago? when i tried to make an enemy sit on a trap, turns out, they dont affect them, so much for playing dirty.

And making it intentional is even worse, i hope the devs just didnt have this much foresight, but maybe they did, thats's why there's only an 'easier' difficulty at the beginning, not a harder one, because that would likely be hell on earth.

(or avoid the fight altogether)

Are we talking about the same game? 8 times out of 10, you fucking cannot run
The map was not designed for you to run, every corridor only leads to another room that has another enemy, running will literally make things works
The only ways of running are if you stun them, assuming you have the skill, but even then they will catch up again, and the problem still remains that the enemies were aggroed and will keep chasing you until either of you are dead
"But you ran to heal yourself" Wrong, 70% of the time i wanted to run was not because i wanted to heal myself, but because i would die, i fucking know what i can and cannot survive.
This is where the only thing you can do is:
Stun them in sections
Run to a corridor, less sides to get raped from

That's all, that's the only thing you can do, it's not running it's strategic repostioning
And that's the best case scenario, otherwise you just die, get erosioned, and now you're safe? nope, you just ruined your chances of even making to the boss, unless you again, pray to the rng gods, maybe even making it out of the area is far fetched

This kind of difficulty is acceptable when there's multiple difficulty selections. A straight up cheating enemies difficulty? We see that in multiple games. Original Doom would spawn in additional enemies randomly. Civ literally hands the higher difficulty AI more resources to overwhelm you with. But a cheating difficulty being standard? Not even Dark Souls has that. Even Dark Souls is fair. This ain't. It's why I fish saves. Ain't no point in putting that much effort into just getting the art. This game is just flat out poorly designed.

Atleast someone gets it, though your comparisons seem unfair to the game itself, since it doesnt cheat
It's just that the mechanics are made to be so against you that you're rarely at advantage


I like this game, i just wish it did better.

 

[ExposedPlace]

This isnt a complex game where it requires a different mindset, or have one all together.


The game's apperent 'strategic' aspect is very 'minimal'
And that's not to say it isnt strategic and you can just bumrush, but it isnt that deep of a game as i've said
In moments where things dont look completely hopeless, your instincts take use the game knowledge you've acquired and quickly come up with a plan
I have a stun/item, use it on the strongest enemy
Take care of the generics, there were alot of them, half your hp left
Strong enemy is unfrozen, they move towards you
You have no healing items, only 1 focus
The enemy uses their wide range skill, you have no movement skills to dodge
Use the focus, you got through unscatched
The enemy is infront of you know
Exchange of damage, basic attacks, skills whatever you wish
15 hp left, you survived, and safe
This is about as complex it's going to get, alot of times you dont have the leisure of choosing something like attributes since changing weapons takes a turn, and a turn here is basically the border between life and death

And like i said "where things dont look completely hopeless" alot of the times they do
Sure you can take care of the hopeless situation by getting downed or using Cursed sword yourself, but making a sacrifice in a moment you had no fault it just feels... bad, like really bad and really frustrating

Oh and this completely ignores the element of traps, which you only sometimes have the chance to acticate perception on
Sure, there are damage increases, but half the time the defense or damage buff isnt the one you want, only useful thing is erosion reduction and health when you're in a tight situation
You virtually can't do anything about them, true sight potions are almost as rare as evolution stones
This element of rng isnt fun, there has to be some sort of counterbalance to this



This is false optimism, being optimistic in this game is thinking you can win an encounter, not that you can become bullshit strong
The game is never and never will be in your favor, and it shouldn't be like that.
A hard game isnt unfair, a hard game requires effort to beat and succeed in, people will call it unfair because they do not spend the effort to actually achieve their goals
There is no 'effort' you can spend in here, you can only waste time as you stepped on an enemy spawner trapped after barely surviving 10 enemies in one room which you spawned in


The enemy i talked about litteraly survived a few of my hits (atleast 100 damage each) and FUCKING TWO CURSED SWORD EXPLOSIONS
FUCKING TWO
What in the ever loving fuck was i supposed to 'stratagize'? I used a focus potion and her 20hp multi hit PER HIT move still hit every single one shredding my hp into nothingness, the enemies are stupid fucking powerful, and the speed at which i am growing stronger does not compare


You're being far to romantic for a game
There is no such thing as honor or playing dirty
You can only attack with your weapon, or with it's skill, you can throw things if that's what you decide to be the best option, and that's it
There is no mechanics to exploit, the time i tried to play dirty was like 20 gameplay hours ago? when i tried to make an enemy sit on a trap, turns out, they dont affect them, so much for playing dirty.

And making it intentional is even worse, i hope the devs just didnt have this much foresight, but maybe they did, thats's why there's only an 'easier' difficulty at the beginning, not a harder one, because that would likely be hell on earth.


Are we talking about the same game? 8 times out of 10, you fucking cannot run
The map was not designed for you to run, every corridor only leads to another room that has another enemy, running will literally make things works
The only ways of running are if you stun them, assuming you have the skill, but even then they will catch up again, and the problem still remains that the enemies were aggroed and will keep chasing you until either of you are dead
"But you ran to heal yourself" Wrong, 70% of the time i wanted to run was not because i wanted to heal myself, but because i would die, i fucking know what i can and cannot survive.
This is where the only thing you can do is:
Stun them in sections
Run to a corridor, less sides to get raped from

That's all, that's the only thing you can do, it's not running it's strategic repostioning
And that's the best case scenario, otherwise you just die, get erosioned, and now you're safe? nope, you just ruined your chances of even making to the boss, unless you again, pray to the rng gods, maybe even making it out of the area is far fetched






Atleast someone gets it, though your comparisons seem unfair to the game itself, since it doesnt cheat
It's just that the mechanics are made to be so against you that you're rarely at advantage


I like this game, i just wish it did better.

It seems like you have trouble with dealing many enemies at once in particular.
If that's so, I suggest you to create the succubus' special weapon as it is an AoE sleep and it's super versatile. It can fix all the tricky situations you just described as it gives you time to think what to do first(who to fight first, if it's better to retreat and so on).
Also, if you didn't know, you can put skills attached to accessories, making skills much more reliable as they are not tied to a weapon.
Those are just a few suggestions out of the infinite ways you can exploit the game to your advantage.
Overall, in my opinion, the game isn't that hard, you just need to be able to analyse the situation you're in and think of the best solution (although rng can change the outcome, it is not punishing, just as other people have previously quoted).
Of course you can't know what you're up against if you fight it for the first time, however you can still learn how to deal with it the next time, that's how a rogue like works.
It's absolutely possible to complete the game without losing even once if you know what to do (I've tried it before), demonstrating that luck is not tied to your skill as a player in this game.
I don't expect you to know the game inside out just to know the best gear or skills kr whatever, all I'm saying is that the game gives you all the tools to overcome a challenge, just like in a souls like (dark souls, elden ring, etc).
If the game feels unfair, it's probably better to rethink your strategy and try new things that might or might not work.
Sorry for the long reply, although i felt like it was necessary.

 

[Ogrexin]

Also, if you didn't know, you can put skills attached to accessories, making skills much more reliable as they are not tied to a weapon.

The durability of accesoriess is quite poor however, and given the amount of times you get hit, you'll quickly break it, and that's all assuming you find an enchant table, sometimes i find 6 of them sometimes none at all

Overall, in my opinion, the game isn't that hard, you just need to be able to analyse the situation you're in and think of the best solution (although rng can change the outcome, it is not punishing, just as other people have previously quoted).
Of course you can't know what you're up against if you fight it for the first time, however you can still learn how to deal with it the next time, that's how a rogue like works.

Games like dead cells are fair, and they're 90% skill dependent, what you get on your run may help alot but you can beat bosses even with shitty weapons
And most times you die, it is your fault.
This is not the case
This game however, is 20-30% skill dependent however, and that skill mostly involves praying and having enough foresight to throw a potion at a mini boss summoner enemy
And i never called it hard, just unfair, if the game was slighty more in your favor it'd be pretty alright in terms of difficulty.

If that's so, I suggest you to create the succubus' special weapon as it is an AoE sleep and it's super versatile. It can fix all the tricky situations you just described as it gives you time to think what to do first(who to fight first, if it's better to retreat and so on).

I'd say confusion would be better since sleeping just stuns them for one turn if you hit them, running away is, as i've said, rarely an option.
The 1s section of the new area has alot of empty areas, so retreat could be an option, 2nd section not so much, and the rest of the game is obvious



No need to apologize, it's hardly long, say whatever as long as you remain courteous.

 

[mcflappyjaw]

1000 wordcount skill issue

It's like you're intentionally trying to make it as bitter as possible and bashing your head against the wall
Anyway everything you said was wrong and you just suck. You're being too mad to experiment properly.

You can't run

You can with decent (3 move) mobility, Go backwards if you have to. Even enemies that target you through walls give up offscreen (but it's gonna fucking hurt, only do this if you have to). With 4 move you can flat out ignore entire rooms and most melee girls, no fighting needed
tip: dash into corridor, sleep potion enemy in front of conga line. They'll lose you by the time they wake up

Can't waste a turn switching weapons

Game gives you an initial grace turn exactly for this purpose

And like i said "where things dont look completely hopeless" alot of the times they do

Just walk around around and heal? Prepare with good weapons? That's literally the defining mechanic of the game
You keep talking as if you don't have the tools to deal with anything. Bro, You make the tools.
I consistently have 5 or so weapons I consider 'too useful/versatile/powerful to use'. There is no situation where I have literally no options like you describe. Makes me wonder what your playstyle even is to get this far.

Cursed sword bullshit

Yeah, It is bullshit

Try this mechanic

no it's shit

Accessories don't lose durability when you hit/use them, but when you get hit. I know it's a meme but just don't get hit, use 1 shotting abilities and take it off when you need to
Also the one you find on your bed (old charm, I think) respawns when broken.

 

[Ogrexin]

It's like you're intentionally trying to make it as bitter as possible and bashing your head against the wall
Anyway everything you said was wrong and you just suck. You're being too mad to experiment properly.

Another nickel!
What a delightful way to talk to anybody, you sure seem like a socially adept individual

You can with decent (3 move) mobility, Go backwards if you have to. Even enemies that target you through walls give up offscreen (but it's gonna fucking hurt, only do this if you have to). With 4 move you can flat out ignore entire rooms and most melee girls, no fighting needed
tip: dash into corridor, sleep potion enemy in front of conga line. They'll lose you by the time they wake up

How many sleeping potions do you have? The amount of stacked unwinnable rooms far outweighed the amount of items i had to help me
It's basically "just use items lol" you wont have them, healing potions, soul drops, focus potions, mateiralss, weapons, by the point of all of that you'll be at maxed out capacity
And this is assuming you have a single block corridor
So thanks for the tip, ill make sure to use it when uhhh
I have a sleeping potion!
I'm in a single blocked corridor!
This totally solves every situation!

Just walk around around and heal? Prepare with good weapons? That's literally the defining mechanic of the game
You keep talking as if you don't have the tools to deal with anything. Bro, You make the tools.

1. You do not choose what materials you get (rng remember)
2. If you do want to choose materials you'll have to leave behind alot of atleast good upgrade materials behind, its wasteful and inefficent
3. Assuming you do now have the materials you wanted (rare as unicorns), you still only have a 1/5 chance of getting the weapon you want
So you're not going to get the tool you want 4/5 times anyways.

I consistently have 5 or so weapons I consider 'too useful/versatile/powerful to use'. There is no situation where I have literally no options

The 'best option' should already be in your hand. There's a reasson the so called other 5 arent being used right now, because they arent the best option, and when that, often fails, you have no options, shrimple as.

Accessories don't lose durability when you hit/use them, but when you get hit. I know it's a meme but just don't get hit, use 1 shotting abilities and take it off when you need to

This is to my suprise is true, feels like a mandella effect or some shit, I remember my accesories being torn to bits fairly quickly and testing it out?
Strange to exclude accesories though

Game gives you an initial grace turn exactly for this purpose

Wow you must be strangely lucky if one weapon solves every situation perfectly

 

[Ren_Amamiya15]

...So to avoid any further conflict, or arguments, lets all be friends and I will once again ask if someone has a save file right after they beat the boss?
If not, guess we better GET GOOD.

 

[lapinfhiufe]

Yes, get good, the game is great, it's a good challenge, it's fun aswell anyway

 

[Ogrexin]

...So to avoid any further conflict, or arguments, lets all be friends and I will once again ask if someone has a save file right after they beat the boss?

Lol arguments are fun, like being unironic here
It didnt really get nearly as hostile as most discussions (in this community especially)

Putting aside the rants i've typed out, i still like this game, i'd recommend playing it despite it's flaws

 

[mcflappyjaw]

...So to avoid any further conflict, or arguments, lets all be friends and I will once again ask if someone has a save file right after they beat the boss?
If not, guess we better GET GOOD.

Sorry, Got kind of used to being an asshole on the internet. Here, This one is right before beating the third boss

 

[FemaleLesbianSexual]

Sorry, Got kind of used to being an asshole on the internet. Here, This one is just before beating it

Is this save for 0.82? Is it full complete?

 

[turt19]

Man im not even gonna lie the 3rd boss reminds me way too much of Mikolesh from Bloodborne and I already hated that guy, had some bad luck with the crafting but from what I can take is that you can defeat the 3rd boss by doing attrition battles and guerilla warfare. Get a weapon that can dig trough terrain and have lots of haste potions at hand (same with special HP pots), try not to get spotted by the enemy mobs because that'll just wear down your main weapon if you don't have a mob clearing weapon prepared. you should be able to take down the boss at the end of the map then

 

[Ren_Amamiya15]

Sorry, Got kind of used to being an asshole on the internet. Here, This one is right before beating the third boss

Thank youuuu sir

 

[Ren_Amamiya15]

Thank youuuu sir

That reminds me, I assume you played the game on normal. I play mine on the easier version as I just wanted to experience the game and see. Can it be changed, or not?

 

[Ogrexin]

That reminds me, I assume you played the game on normal. I play mine on the easier version as I just wanted to experience the game and see. Can it be changed, or not?

Difficulty is permament