Ren'Py A House in the Rift [v0.7.15r3] [Zanith]

[ciderapple]

And some story types are just objectively bad and can be called out as such. These are usually ones which are internally inconsistent or contradictory to themselves in some way. And then there are some creators who just go off the deep end and try to destroy a series or story by injecting too much personal politics into it. Such as Star Wars The Last Jedi ..... terrible movie that basically killed the entire star wars franchise for me. i'll never pay disney for a star wars product again. - and i'm not alone in that judgement, there is a lot of animosity at disney for what they have done to the star wars movies.

 

[CptValor]

In regard to how the game is gonna end, I personally had been tossing around the idea of the MC and the girls all just staying in the rift and becoming a "family"/harem! (the term family was used loosely in the story at one point where one of the girls and the MC made a reference to how they are all kinda like a family) so i feel this analogy wasn't made as a random bit of text but possibly a bit of foreshadowing that the savvy reader can pick up as a hint of things to come. anyway, i feel that perhaps as a harem route end, one could chose to stay the way they are and by the end of the game the MC will have become strong enough to resist the pull and keep himself and the girls on dream walk for as long as he wants. this would eventually lead to them not having to worry about being tied to the house and they could basically come and go as they pleased.

this all made sense in my head as it also seemed as though some of the girls aren't exactly looking forward to going back to their old lives. you can pick up hints of this in dialogue with Rae and basically the whole story with Lyriel. Of course being the typical tsundere, Lyriel is never gonna admit she doesn't want to go back to living in the bar with her family, but her family is the only reason she would have to stay in her world. Yona has been defeated in combat and is probably thought of to be dead (seeing as how she thought she was dead at first too).With Rae its a bit more tricky as she's part of some succubus organization and even though she has a high position in demon government or whatever, you can pick up hints of her not liking the part of her job where she has to seduce disgusting assholes from other realms to steal information. Then Cait, well she doesn't necessarily hate her world, but all the things she learns from the MCs world and all the modern technology has her interested. (while the case could also be made that she wants to go back because of her friends and the magic school is like her home. i think with Cait its gonna boil down to her wanting to stay in the house with everyone else because she falls in love with the MC. but that could also be the case with all the girls... don't knock it too much its just a theory after all) Last but not least we have Naomi, she is the one that gives me the least hints of wanting to stay... in fact quite the opposite! She is always talking about seeing her crew and ship mates again and even talks about not liking having to use her land legs. However if you take my last few sentences into account, I feel she's gonna be another to want to stay because she falls for the MC (and also wants to be there for Cait, so securing Cait in the harem end would probably have Naomi follow suit.

And that's basically my theory for how the game would end... at least for the harem end! There's also the possibility of individual endings (which I believe someone else had made a post about earlier). Sorry for writing a book, but that's what I think will happen and it just remains to be seen if I'm right or not!

 

[j4yj4m]

creative types can be fickle. But ultimately, it's about money because everyone has to eat (and these days, typically money is used to get food). They want money, so they make a thing and sell it. If people don't like that thing, they won't make money. So input about a storyline change that improves the story is usually a good thing, because - money.

Meh, that's a bad take. Sorry. Sure, if we are talking about massive companies that produce games like Mass Effect, sure - they don't care about anything but money.
But that's not what's happening here. The game does well and it's definitely better to pursue something that makes decent money but makes you happy, then to chase the big money by "selling out".

I have experienced many thousands of stories over the years. So when I see certain storylines developing, it is very easy for me to predict where they are going. And certain storylines are repeated over and over - ad nauseum - until they grow incredibly tiresome to repeat, not only because I know where they are going, but because I consider that ending a poor one.

That's fine. Just move on if you don't like it. There are thousands more stories out there.

But sometimes, creative types will channel into those story threads because they don't know a better alternative. Thus the prodding, by me, for them to come up with something better. Though I could just 'give' them something better, that would interfere with the creative process. And people are much more likely to improve (and accept those improvements) if they do it themselves.

Telling a dev they lack creativity, calling their work "stupid" several times or "just bad" isn't giving them something better. Your tone in these posts already pretty much disqualifies you.

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

And some story types are just objectively bad and can be called out as such. These are usually ones which are internally inconsistent or contradictory to themselves in some way. And then there are some creators who just go off the deep end and try to destroy a series or story by injecting too much personal politics into it. Such as Star Wars The Last Jedi ..... terrible movie that basically killed the entire star wars franchise for me. i'll never pay disney for a star wars product again. - and i'm not alone in that judgement, there is a lot of animosity at disney for what they have done to the star wars movies.

So i guess Book!Eowyn's ending(Lord of the Ring here) is bad...i mean she is someone who struggles with depression, she is pretty much unable to fight back because the world keep putting on her knees. In the books that "i'm not a man" sentence is not a "girl-powa" moment, is a "I'm not a man because i'm dead (either i fight or don't)" moment. After that war she chooses to become a housewife, decides to be loved, to marry someone who isn't a noble or powerful, she chose a simple man with a simple but manageable life, filled with happiness and joy

is it objectively bad? I think it's not, but some people may disagree with me. She gave up her noble title, to have a decent, simple, peaceful but happy life rather than dealing with politics (which depressed her).

Someone may say it's sexist, but in that context i think she chose happiness over power or “historical greatness”

 

[ciderapple]

So i guess Book!Eowyn's ending(Lord of the Ring here) is bad...i mean she is someone who struggles with depression, she is pretty much unable to fight back because the world keep putting on her knees. In the books that "i'm not a man" sentence is not a "girl-powa" moment, is a "I'm not a man because i'm dead (either i fight or don't)" moment. After that war she chooses to become a housewife, decides to be loved, to marry someone who isn't a noble or powerful, she chose a simple man with a simple but manageable life, filled with happiness and joy

is it objectively bad? I think it's not, but some people may disagree with me. She gave up her noble title, to have a decent, simple, peaceful but happy life rather than dealing with politics (which depressed her).

Someone may say it's sexist, but in that context i think she chose happiness over power or “historical greatness”

what does this have to do with star wars the last jedi?

 

[ciderapple]

Meh, that's a bad take. Sorry. Sure, if we are talking about massive companies that produce games like Mass Effect, sure - they don't care about anything but money.
But that's not what's happening here. The game does well and it's definitely better to pursue something that makes decent money but makes you happy, then to chase the big money by "selling out".

That's fine. Just move on if you don't like it. There are thousands more stories out there.

Telling a dev they lack creativity, calling their work "stupid" several times or "just bad" isn't giving them something better. Your tone in these posts already pretty much disqualifies you.

There is nothing wrong with calling out things as you see them. And i personally think that the storyline I described, if it plays out that way, is stupid. and i'm not afraid to call it such.

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

There is nothing wrong with calling out things as you see them. And i personally think that the storyline I described, if it plays out that way, is stupid. and i'm not afraid to call it such.

So when you DO is fine, but when I DO it's bad?!

What's the standard? Because i called out several times users(not developers) for the same thing and i nearly got banned for that XDXD

 

[ciderapple]

So when you DO is fine, but when I DO it's bad?!

What's the standard? Because i called out several times users(not developers) for the same thing and i nearly got banned for that XDXD

I am unfamiliar with your previous interactions and so can not speak to those situations.

As for the standard, i should hope there was a FAQ somewhere around here with general forum rules. But I hardly think criticizing a plotline in a game would be anything to worry about.

 

[j4yj4m]

There is nothing wrong with calling out things as you see them. And i personally think that the storyline I described, if it plays out that way, is stupid. and i'm not afraid to call it such.

That may be true, but in that case it simply becomes a question on where you see yourself. If you just want to review stuff, sure, call it whatever you want. Everybody is free to voice his or her opinion.
As soon as you actually want to be part of the creative process and aim to improve things, being rude is pretty much a no-no, though. That's got little to do with courage or "not being afraid" but just with how you actually convince someone opposite.

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

I am unfamiliar with your previous interactions and so can not speak to those situations.

As for the standard, i should hope there was a FAQ somewhere around here with general forum rules. But I hardly think criticizing a plotline in a game would be anything to worry about.

i criticized the idiocy of some comments XD and their lack of creativity and rationality u.u

 

[ciderapple]

That may be true, but in that case it simply becomes a question on where you see yourself. If you just want to review stuff, sure, call it whatever you want. Everybody is free to voice his or her opinion.
As soon as you actually want to be part of the creative process and aim to improve things, being rude is pretty much a no-no, though. That's got little to do with courage or "not being afraid" but just with how you actually convince someone opposite.

There is a time and a place for 'rude' language. And i did not even use any swear words. (though there is a time for those as well). Typically it is used to place extreme emphasis about a persons reaction to a particular event or thing. And I very purposefully used that word in that location because of it's strong meaning because I was conveying my very strong negative reaction to the storyline type I described.

Sadly it is usually the negative comments which eventually change peoples behavior, because it makes a stronger impression.
Though the goal is to ultimately affect the game for it's improvement.

It also helps people grow thicker skins, and that's never a bad thing - especially on the internet.

 

[ciderapple]

i criticized the idiocy of some comments XD and their lack of creativity and rationality u.u

It's a fine line these days, there are a lot of very sensitive people around, and sometimes they react poorly to criticism. I am sorry you ran into that.

 

[j4yj4m]

There is a time and a place for 'rude' language. And i did not even use any swear words. (though there is a time for those as well). Typically it is used to place extreme emphasis about a persons reaction to a particular event or thing. And I very purposefully used that word in that location because of it's strong meaning because I was conveying my very strong negative reaction to the storyline type I described.

Sadly it is usually the negative comments which eventually change peoples behavior, because it makes a stronger impression.
Though the goal is to ultimately affect the game for it's improvement.

It also helps people grow thicker skins, and that's never a bad thing - especially on the internet.

It's quite brave of you to suggest that many people would actually continue reading in that case. Especially once a certain level of feedback is reached and once there are hundreds of opinions for them to choose from - more then they'll be able to read, actually.

As far as I see it, in many cases opinions with agressive language simply tend to get ignored as soon as that language is directed to towards those who are meant to read them and to change something. Unless we are talking about an acutal shit storm, but that's a whole other dimension of criticism.

But I guess that's just something we fundamentally disagree on.

Edit: Just to illustrate what I mean. The dev of SummertimeSaga once mentioned that he had a backlog of over 1200 or so messages with suggestions and stuff on Patreon. Do you really think he'll prefer someone accusing him over something that's well phrased in that case?

 

[ciderapple]

It's quite brave of you to suggest that many people would actually continue reading in that case. Especially once a certain level of feedback is reached and once there are hundreds of opinions for them to choose from - more then they'll be able to read, actually.

As far as I see it, in many cases opinions with agressive language simply tend to get ignored as soon as that language is directed to towards those who are meant to read them and to change something. Unless we are talking about an acutal shit storm, but that's a whole other dimension of criticism.

But I guess that's just something we fundamentally disagree on.

Edit: Just to illustrate what I mean. The dev of SummertimeSaga once mentioned that he had a backlog of over 1200 messages with suggestions and stuff on Patreon. Do you really think he'll prefer someone accusing him over something that's well phrased in that case?

It's not so much a matter of preference, it's a matter of reaction to criticism. Sure - if the developer reads that, and had intended on taking the plot that way, they will likely be unhappy. But the way the human brain works, we tend to remember things more strongly that are connected to an emotional response. And the stronger the emotional response, the better we remember it. Also - we tend to more strongly link memories to negative emotional responses.

It's a survival tactic humans developed over many many thousands of years. If we get chased by a tiger and we survive, that event will be burned into our brains and we will use that experience to help us better survive the next time that may happen. It's a simple evolutionary thing.

Conversely, things we enjoy and love also tend to burn things into our minds, but the memory response there is much weaker because it does not directly link with our survival like the negative emotions do. Sort of sucks that we are wired like that, but that's what we got, thanks evolution!

As for if they will actually even read this or not, - I have no clue. I hope so, but i would not be surprised if this thread were entirely ignored and i'm just throwing words at the wind. Such is the nature of the internet.

But one thing is certain - I am guaranteed to fail at something every time I never try.

Of course that does not mean every time a person posts they should do it negatively, many of my posts are also quite positive, but there is a time and a place for criticism too.

 

[JackFateRipperNight]

Now don't get me wrong I do like this game but what's with those version numbers?

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

It's not so much a matter of preference, it's a matter of reaction to criticism. Sure - if the developer reads that, and had intended on taking the plot that way, they will likely be unhappy. But the way the human brain works, we tend to remember things more strongly that are connected to an emotional response. And the stronger the emotional response, the better we remember it. Also - we tend to more strongly link memories to negative emotional responses.

It's a survival tactic humans developed over many many thousands of years. If we get chased by a tiger and we survive, that event will be burned into our brains and we will use that experience to help us better survive the next time that may happen. It's a simple evolutionary thing.

Conversely, things we enjoy and love also tend to burn things into our minds, but the memory response there is much weaker because it does not directly link with our survival like the negative emotions do. Sort of sucks that we are wired like that, but that's what we got, thanks evolution!

As for if they will actually even read this or not, - I have no clue. I hope so, but i would not be surprised if this thread were entirely ignored and i'm just throwing words at the wind. Such is the nature of the internet.

But one thing is certain - I am guaranteed to fail at something every time I never try.

Of course that does not mean every time a person posts they should do it negatively, many of my posts are also quite positive, but there is a time and a place for criticism too.

i'm pretty sure once i press "Ignore" i will forget you in less than 1 minute

 

[j4yj4m]

It's not so much a matter of preference, it's a matter of reaction to criticism. Sure - if the developer reads that, and had intended on taking the plot that way, they will likely be unhappy. But the way the human brain works, we tend to remember things more strongly that are connected to an emotional response. And the stronger the emotional response, the better we remember it. Also - we tend to more strongly link memories to negative emotional responses.

It's a survival tactic humans developed over many many thousands of years. If we get chased by a tiger and we survive, that event will be burned into our brains and we will use that experience to help us better survive the next time that may happen. It's a simple evolutionary thing.

Conversely, things we enjoy and love also tend to burn things into our minds, but the memory response there is much weaker because it does not directly link with our survival like the negative emotions do. Sort of sucks that we are wired like that, but that's what we got, thanks evolution!

My point was actually that many will probably just stop reading and move on to the next message. So there's a chance that the actual idea won't even be read.

Last but not least I don't really think any of that applies to game development/writing in the first place. Every dev/writer I know has some kind of notepad/notebook/app whatever to note ideas and concepts he likes and considers for the future. So there's really no reason the connect anything, you just have to be convincing at the time you present your idea, so it will get on that "list". Everything that's not on it tends to be displaced by other ideas pretty soon anyway. At least that's how I'd see it.

 

[ciderapple]

i'm pretty sure once i press "Ignore" i will forget you in less than 1 minute

Feel free =)

I rarely ignore anyone personally, but do not begrudge others the privilege.

 

[ciderapple]

Now don't get me wrong I do like this game but what's with those version numbers?

The version numbers are linked with the revision of a particular release. So this is release version 5.13 and the 'r3' part means this is the third revision of that release. Most revisions are to fix bugs or errors, and most versions actually add or modify content.

 

[Cartageno]

The only reason I post anything at all in a thread is if I like the game and want it to improve. I can get a bit rough however, (likely a product of my demonic heritage ) When I see something I don't like, i rather unapologetically let people know that I don't like that thing. And in this case it particularly bothers me because I actually care about where this game goes with it's storyline. And yes, you do catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I may have let my frustration at this particular type of storyline get the better of me. It really is a very over-used plot type, I want better!

First (though not this post) I'll give you everything you said about ME3's ending. What an awful way to kill the experience of countless hours of fun before that.

Then however "I want it to improve" uses your very own personal metric of "what I like". Which may be very different from what others like. And, as has been said before, at this level it isn't even really a question of money, just as many people make music in less popular genres, "waste" their dancing talent on experimental ballet set to 12 tone music, and so on.

And you are even advocating against your own point somewhat. The "lack of creativity" in "overused tropes" may be that - but it exists in part because people like these tropes. I have some pet peeves of my own which make me dislike a game and dislike the people who defend it, so I am being a bit hypocritical here because I disagree with your idea of how the story should go in parts (although I gotta admit you make some salient points). The majority of the audience prefers "happily ever after". The majority of the audience in these games prefer girls being available to sex and actually liking you, even though you just stumble through the house, and so on.

So i guess Book!Eowyn's ending(Lord of the Ring here) is bad...i mean she is someone who struggles with depression, she is pretty much unable to fight back because the world keep putting on her knees. In the books that "i'm not a man" sentence is not a "girl-powa" moment, is a "I'm not a man because i'm dead (either i fight or don't)" moment.

Actually it is mostly Tolkien's hatred of Macbeth. In Macbeth, a prophecy about "a man born to a woman" is invalid because Caesarean section. Tolkien considered that a cop out, so he made a real "not a man" thing. Just like in Macbeth a prophecy about the trees attacking turned out to be soldiers camouflaged with leaves - this birthed the Ents, so we can have real trees attacking.