I think there is a bit of idiocy in everyone. Laura trusts herself so much that she believes she can beat Luca by herself and then sees that it is impossible for her when she sees that she is not really who she thinks she is or how strong she thinks she is. Then leave the whole matter to Harry trying to solve it and rescue her from the mess she got into, in some routes Harry manages to at least get her away from Luca and in others he doesn't. Here it all comes down to whoever may distrust more of their strengths, Harry of Laura and Laura of her pride in seeing herself different from her mother.
- Thread starter HangoverCat
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Yes, but you don't blame the girl for it. Maybe lough at her - sure. Learn from her mistakes - absolutely. But you don't BLAME her.
It's an important distinction precisely because it's done all the time in the real world.
So "all the time" that we have to invent specific term for it to combat such behavior.
Like 'racism', or 'transphobia' - 'victim-blaming' is a marker to control ourselves from harmful behavior.
You avoided topic of the politics - understandably - so I won't bring examples, but I'm sure you can draw some parallels - even from resent news.
When victims are blamed for the position they are in - and then we always take another step. We stop helping them, we leave them to get out of their own mess, and in the end we treat them as a collateral when we have to actually deal with the abuser.
Or sometimes worse.
- Jul 20, 2018
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I suspect I get what you're trying to say...
However, you need to take a step back a bit. You're trying too hard to apply real life values and the like to a discussion about fictional characters. Not just fictional characters, but fictional characters in hentai VN with a Netorare focus, a genre that always amplifies and exaggerates a number of character flaws.
It's partly my fault too for comparing things in any way to real life without considering that some people may be more sensitive to certain subjects than I am... but we should remember that assessing the situation(s) in this VN, and assessing similar situations in real life will not work anywhere near the same.
Harry and Laura are not real people, so the fact someone says that they do or don't deserve X or Y isn't inherently a bad thing, nor will it necessarily reflect anyone's view of the same situation in reality.
I say plenty of stuff about the characters, and we can commend the writer for making them detailed enough for people to care about them in various ways. However, I will explicitly note that I have absolutely no idea what I'd think about this sort of situation if it actually happened in reality. Beyond the fact that I'd think that Luca should go to prison for the rest of his natural life and a few more decades on top of that if his life was somehow extended.
That said, I genuinely don't believe that this specific situation could happen in reality for... a lot of reasons. NTR is, after all, one of those genres where you have to at least partially turn your brain off to enjoy it, and which falls apart if you look at it too hard. I will give the author props for reducing the amount of brain shut-down needed for this one, but he couldn't avoid it completely.
Oh absolutely not.
We're just discussing our reaction to the story, nothing more - which of our thoughts on it are rational, which of them are 'good' or 'useful'.
And which should be inhibited.
That's 1 of the 2 purposes of any story in the end.
Another one being raw emotions.
In terms of fictional characters - Laura is the strongest.
She's just a fucking cripple who goes against the purpose of the plot with all the strength of her character arc.
And I victim-blame it on the author.
Oh no, Harry is also faulty, my issue is that while Harry is an emotionally weak little stupid bastard...he NEVER makes such claims of everyone being 'weak' while implying himself as being above.
If anything it is far easier to him to indulge in self loathing and a load of bullcrap. My problem is mainly due to Laura being a massive hypocrite.
She is not strong, she is as weak as the rest so she is the last one to talk about 'strength'. If anything?
She can't even call Harry 'weak' as a flaw since her herself can't even see weakness in herself. If she saw and tried to outgrow from it? Fine, you get to judge.
Harry do see weakness in himself, he just is in a frankly idiotic self imposed hole of 'I can't, I am weeeeak' which...attracts flies. Bot Flies. He is a rotting corpse.
Guess what Aya, Laura and Luca are? Carrion feeders/Bot Flies/Trash/Maggots. That is what they are.
Henceforth why while I get why people hate Harry and I agree over the reasons, he is really toxic...I don't get why Laura and the rest aren't put on the same trial. So yeah. To hell with all of them. They are all toxic and the only thing who can reddemn them is fire. Pure scorching fire that would leave only pure ashes.
...Ham aside...yeah. They all suck.
- Jul 20, 2018
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I dunno... Harry does seem to look down on "sluts", specifically the sluts that moan out loud crazily when Luca fucks them. His wording in some of those sections makes it pretty clear that he thinks they're inferior women... because... uh... Because they like to feel good?
Oh dear. "How dare you bitches have a better sex life than my GF?"
Also, he had some comments about some of his colleagues along the lines of them being nerds that would evaporate in the presence of real women. There was definitely wording there to imply that he felt himself superior to "those nerds" because he managed to hook-up with the hottest woman in the company. Hell, when Aya insults a number of them, he doesn't actually disagree with her, he just doesn't want shit to be started in the office because she's being loud and insulting, but from the looks of things, he absolutely did agree with her about them.
So nah. Harry has his own moments of thinking that people are losers and that he's a winner.
He's a nice guy overall, but he's a hypocrite about various things too.
imo probably reaching there although luca did mention harry was a massive prick who flaunted his morals back in highschool though its questionable on whether its that luca was in fact a cunt or if its just luca overreacting (as usual) about him
Still though I wouldnt say its like he looks down on them its probably just them being annoying when hes trying to do anything but listen to someone else moan through the wall I'd be annoyed at that too lmfao
For the longest time, i've hated mind control or hypnosis, ntr stories. But is there really a difference between regular ntr and mind control ntr? Normal ntr is almost always the same old corruption story. The girl get rapped or has a one night stand, and she magically lose all reasoning and betray her love ones. The magical dick control her mind instead of that dumb phone app.
Is it due to his natural asshatery or due to what happened with him and Luca? Because honestly it feels to me that Luca would willingly make it so or try to make Harry a moralistic POS because if he didn't care...then he wouldn't have much ground to harm him.
Also...eh, the issue is Luca doing that to hit him, while his answer is wrong and he is...ah, they both suck. Honestly? They deserve to have their cocks crushed with a jackhammer, throw the remains to the dogs and slice their wrists.
Leave them bleeding to death, send pics to Laura and Aya with a message.
"True Best Fuck Ever. Never again they shall have such experiences!"
...well, that was dark. Sure they would be okay with that.
Nice? You are being charitable to him, right?
- Jul 20, 2018
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It's not just the annoyance of noisy neighbors, that's normal.
That said, I may be misremembering this... but, I'm pretty sure there was at least one moment where he had a reaction along the lines of "what self respecting woman would ever behave like that"? or some such, as if it's inherently wrong to get fucked so hard that you end up screaming nonsense from the pleasure.
His behavior when Maya was basically begging for help was not a point in his favor either, and that particular aspect of his personality didn't really change through most of the story and the majority of the paths.
Dude... you really hate these characters, huh?
Depends. For badly written NTR? No. For stories like this one where the corruption takes longer than a month and has more factors to it than just the guy's dick, then yes. Regular NTR stories, when written well, tend to feature a much better and gradual process of corruption and overall better established characters. Most stories don't have that though.
This one does.
There's specifically one path and ending where Laura doesn't completely fall all on her own, simply because Harry makes the right moves for her to be fully confident in their love and his ability to accept her as who and what she is, and not just the image he has in his head of her.
All that said...
NTR is the kind of genre that will always have at least some ridiculous things in it. You'll always have to turn some of your brain off to enjoy it. The hallmarks of a good NTR story is basically not needing to turn your brain off TOO much, beyond that, mileage will vary depending on personal preferences and what you're getting out of the NTR genre.
- Sep 7, 2023
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Sorry, I understand the point about NTR, but we who are generally accused of hating them coincidentally all have the same reason, that their nature is so extreme when it comes to character roles, you can understand it, if you don't create a Mc with the fetish and his mental weakness or a Mc who suffers the horns behind his back, because he's an idiot, these stories wouldn't have the right plot, but here also lies the contradiction, but no one is asking to change the plot or things too demanding, but you have to understand that the NTR genre needs a refresh, moreover in many you don't really have choices, they are more porn comics with some interaction, but precisely the lack of choices that we lack in this type of game, not it's only MC who is helpless, but we players too, to date, I believe that only 5 games make you act with anger towards the wife and the bull, leading either to revenge or to separation, but the rest are copy and paste, put for example, many times the option of choosing whether to be a slut or not is nenahc and I find it a fair thing, because you don't make us play with Mc but rather with the enemy, then we start from the fact that the wife cheats, is a slut etc. instead we should have the choices as a function of MC, even when he has his fetish, he still has to dictate the condition, because basically he gives his wife the pass for her enjoyment, here many instead transform Mc's fetish into a weapon to wife and lovers, totally wrong, if we talk about open relationship, or sharing etc. Of course, if we have a wife who secretly cheats, these options normally don't exist
- May 9, 2020
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I agree with you and I will add that Luca IMHO is in love with Harry. if i have to prove my statement
As Elie Wiesel said "the opposite of love is not hate is indifference". Luca is dedicated to Harry more than every girl from what we see here.In psychology some people they tend to destroy what they can't have . It's a mix of self destructive behaviour , obsession, and cognitive dissonance.I haven't played all the game as I came for the vanilla ntr ending. And that ended to soon.But i watched the discussion and I asked here and there some things. So I may be wrong
Laura is nothing but a roadside slut that's all, gals like her belongs to streets nothing else. Everything starts with her submitting HERSELF to the bully. She could have said she doesn't care what happens to her bf and for that she's not going to bend, but she does it. Because somewhere subconsciously she wanted to cheat. She just didn't found a way till now. Here in this case she both finds a way and a reasoning to cheat.
Way - Luca, reasoning - she's saving her dumb bf. She gave herself the reasoning that, "it's her duty to save her dumb bf", and later on "if my dumb bf is dumb and can't satisfy me it's his fault and this situation is in my gain". Laura is type of woman who should never be a mother, if she ever gave birth to NORMAL child, that child's life will become complete hell.
She is use and throw type of woman. Today Luca is satisfying her, tomorrow Chad will satisfy her, day after tomorrow Dick will satisfy her, after that she will need all 3 guys combined to satisfy her.
And Harry is also a big dumb passive idiot. Why would you ever get friendly with your Bully? Doesn't matter how much time has passed you would always remember how you're bullied and never forgive them, IF you have guts. Ok, fine you might be physically, positionally inferior to them but you'll never be friendly with such guy ever. You should have the mentality to literally f k them the first opportunity you get, which also IF you get and keep them at arms length. If you're working together, be completely professional, that's it. Harry, a dumb dog deserved to be cucked.
Aya is just immature, mature girls will never like weak willed men like Harry. Once they smell weak willness they'll immediately dump them.
She's having those stupid crush dreams cause of her age. What a girl thinks in her 20s and a lady thinks in her 30s is vastly different, reason is at 30 most women become mentally mature.
Only good guy here is Luca, LoL. He's mature and knows how to give girls happy ending. The maturity which he recieved after having a slut mom.
You are being far too charitable to Luca, aka, the 'mature' guy who is still pissy over something Harry told him in high school. So much for an 'mature' guy. Gods, when I saw his reasoning in the 'Good Ending', I laughed at him because he made the whole scene pure cuck on himself, would be far more humiliating for Harry if he raped Harry.
At least he isn't fucking a woman thinking on another man.
He can fuck whoever he wants, he is still sucking off to Harry, can't let something he said to him back in high school go?
Pathetic. He sounded like a prissy bitch angry because her boyfriend ended up with her.
He might become mature...if he is properly crushed, left unable to move his legs and get an erection. A good series of well hard hits on his spine would do it just fine. He will come out unhappier than before.
Laura is a fool for that reason. She thinks she can have her cake and eat it too up to a point. That is not how this works. She could leave Harry at any moment, but she can't.
Her lust is breaking him, as such she also deserves to be broken as much as him. Not in sexual manner. Perhaps seizing away her capacity to get off is how it might be done. She will never be happy.
Harry is a fucking passive idiot who comes close to conclusions...but fails over his inability to understand that no one is 'perfect'. What he actually deserves is to have everything smashed on his face, and if he dares to break? Show him again and again until he relents and accepts it. He won't ever be happy. Also let the psychotic bitch Aya and the stupid ignoramus Laura watch. He will just hate everyone and never be happy.
Aya needs to watch all of that and see Harry hating her a lot.
Then have Luca killing him out of sheer insanity and spite (because he would still somehow blame Harry for his woes) then she would kill him and kill herself.
Luca deserves as much happiness as the rest.
They miiiiight be able to embrace it, but the old...delicious phrase must apply.
Misery Makes Character.
Ham aside again
Yeah.
No one there deserves happiness.
They deserve a shitload of misery before even being granted a glimmer of happiness. This game's only sin is only having Harry suffer.
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Yeah, that scene was so cringe it alone made me drop the vn for a couple of months, not gonna lie. )
It's one of these small strokes from the author, that works against the purpose of the plot.
In theory Laura should be pulled apart between love for Harry and lust for Luca for the drama and jealousy to work, but these types of tiny strokes damaging the story in a MAJOR way.
It's kinda like Laura's hate for Harry - only instead of one tiny comment, Laura's hate is a major continuous plot point. But in essence it's the same thing.
It's just a mistake from the author.
Another one.
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- Jul 20, 2018
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That's honestly a matter of perspective and preferences tbh. At the end of the day, no story will be perfect, and it's pretty rare that a story of any kind gets everything right for anyone, much less everyone. People just aren't perfect enough for that sort of thing.
Personally, I think that this choice on the author's part was a great one. It helps to flesh out Harry's character and his flaws, as well as helps establish early the flaw in the relationship between Harry and Laura. Harry sees Laura as 'perfect' at the start of the story, and may continue to do so depending on choices and the developments that they lead too. Laura presents herself as perfect and strong, but while she doesn't admit it to herself, she's actually very much one of those 'sluts' that Harry looks down on.
This is part of Luca's "In" to Laura's head. The flash-backs reveal that Harry had this flaw since he was young and it was his vehement declaration that he wouldn't respect a slutty woman regardless of reasons that essentially broke Maya... and it's the same thing that breaks Laura on some routes. It's when she's confronted with Harry's inability to accept her as an imperfect, slutty woman, and the reality that he likely won't ever change, that she genuinely breaks. Pleasure alone isn't enough to break her in any of the routes, it always has to be something more than just pleasure.
For me, that makes the story better. It makes the characters more interesting. It makes Laura more than just a slut and Harry more than just a cuck. I like that it takes more than feeling good to break Laura, and that if she doesn't, she literally kills Luca all on her own in at least one ending. I like it that it takes Harry's own mistakes to break Laura... (and in one case Sandra's mistake, because man that hoe was dumb...)
The fact that Harry doesn't see all women as potentially perfect and/or special is a boon to me, unlike cucks from other NTR stories who tend make Harry look like a super-genius and super-chad...
And that's what matters. I don't want to take it away from you.
But there's also a more fundamental thing that gets damaged because of it.
Small example:
If the MC in some other porn VN meets a girl, whose boyfriend slut-shaming puritanin - what would be your feelings on this scene? Something like "girl, get away from him, you deserve better", no?
And it could work great in that different VN - but that is a VERY bad thing here.
Because if I feel for Laura: "You go girl - get away from Harry and be free", there can't be any drama or jealousy in this story by default.
And ntr doesn't work without jealousy.
Here it's just a small comment, so you kinda can forget about it - but I still can't think about it as a boon. Even if it flashes out characters a bit more.
Not when it undermines fundamental feeling of the story.
Is it possible to switch from one pov to the other midgame?
Or do i have to restart from the very beginning?
Or do i have to restart from the very beginning?
- Jul 20, 2018
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Whoo boy... there's a lot to unpack in there...
Though to start with, I think the main problem is that you seem fixated on the part of netorare that's defined as "meant to induce jealousy etc in the viewer". Somewhere along the line, the idea that netorare is basically emotional torture porn got pushed to the forefront and got stuck there, when that simply doesn't make sense, and never did make sense. It's an idea that NTR haters imposed on the definition and it got stuck there, and I'm far from the only person with this opinion.
Netorare is a contextual and complex fetish that brings a lot of things to the table. Jealousy is one facet of it, but it's actually just ONE and a small one. It's what peeps that identify with the MC and who might self-insert in his position may feel. But there's also another aspect that isn't undermined by how APBLU is structured... and that's betrayal. The betrayal is very strong in this one because of how absolute Laura's fall is, and it isn't just a betrayal of Harry in the general sense when it happens, but also a betrayal of Harry's ideals and in some cases, delusions. Which obviously hurts him badly, and also hurts anyone who desires their women to be pure and innocent for the most part.
However, neither of those aspects matter to me personally.
Because I dive into NTR stories for the other element... The slutification and/or corruption of the girl that's being stolen. (Or the guy, but, well, I don't think we have any of that on f95 and that's stupidly rare for a lot of reasons, sadly...)
APBLU does a VERY good job of depicting Laura's descent from relatively normal woman with some issues into a cock-hungry slut... and depending on the ending, on a back-stabbing, insane cock-hungry slut. The process is thorough, and while it's a bit rushed, and even HSelf admitted that it was actually faster than he wanted to write it... it's still very well done. The story provides excellent reasons for how and why things happen and the varying levels of insanity that Laura descends into, simply because she severely underestimates Luca's madness and hatred.
No matter what happens, Laura will never be the same, and because it's all centered around Harry, Harry will also never be the same ever again. There is no ending to the story where things just go back to normal. After the story, no matter what, Laura will always be a complete slut and Harry will have to live with that.
It's absolutely lovely as far as I'm concerned, especially with how hot the scenes get with the extra context.
Totally agree. When mLaura interacts with Harry, she realizes that she is a bitch, that no matter how much she fights, she is not as strong or perfect as she seems. She needs Harry to accept her that way, so in many cases she follows Luca's game, but inside she is waiting for Harry to accept her as the imperfect woman she is.