I agree with your example - it would be entitlement to want a defining aspect of a good story to be removed just because one doesn't digest that specific aspect; even more so when that specific aspect is what makes the story work.
About your first point - take it the other way around: is APBLU good because it has the amazing character development, writing etc, or is it good because it's specifically NTR ? This ties with the previous point - NTR is quite essential to make the story work, but is it what actually makes the game/story good, or it's just a framework for storytelling? Take for example the Top Gear shows; they're car shows and heavily targeted at car enthusiasts; yet they're entertaining for most viewers, even those not interested in cars. In my opinion, the quality of a creative manifestation precedes its specificity.
Cheers
Seems like you think something is "better" if it has a larger group of target audience.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
Top gear can be ALOT more scientific and less enjoyable to many people, but it would become a better TV show for those who want more scientific content.
In the end it all comes down to what the devs want to achieve. For example, if a developer want to make a game with extreme content like gore, scat, rape.. the game could still be a great game even though there were only very few people who could enjoy it. Trying to argue that the game should also be enjoyable for those who don't like extreme content sounds quite pointless to me.
The best thing in this game is the rules system. As soon as I first saw it, I was very happy that someone was finally beginning to come up with something original. And I was thinking to myself: Damn, I wish there were more games like that, but with gameplay bound to these rules and in other genres (corruption and trainer games, for example).
In fact, I played this game a long time ago, but I hesitated to voice my opinion. All in all, because, I rather do not consider myself a fan of this genre, although I can play games with it.
Second thing would be sex scene description and animations (which improved significantly from my first playthrough (which was before any ending was added))
The best part was the first part of the game, rules introduction, Laura was struggling with her feelings, she hated Luca will all her guts and she was quite strong-willed. After that, when Luca broke her mind, I rather began to lose interest, plus this game don't offer much of the choices for Harry, so I ended up feeling disgusted with him. I couldn't find strength to finish this game, after that. I skipped through the last parts of the game, when HC introduced endings, and was a bit disappointed by them. Because I really wanted to choose to save Laura, but the options I chose still don't have an ending. I also wanted to try to pursue Aya instead of Laura, but judging by the comments, I guess it will be another pain session for Harry. Maybe I could enjoy it, since the sex scenes the author writes are really hot, but I would have to gather all my hatred towards Harry to will be able to enjoy them.
I really enjoyed a new scene in the abrupt route, it was really sexy and exactly what my voyeuristic fetish wanted. The only thing I don't liked it's the black screen after Harry takes the knife. Come on, it's not the 12+ game, we all adults here, why not to show how harry will finish the bastard off (But previously humiliating him in every way for all the pain he caused him (and the player))? I also would like to see an ending where Harry not an idiot and understand that Laura cheating on him and he will break up with her. But I'm afraid that would be already against the main idea of the game, which we see throughout the whole story. That Harry is just a dumb idiot who has to suffer.
Sorry, for long post, just wanted to share these thoughts about the game. I also wanted to submit a rating to this game, but I'm afraid I can't write it objectively enough like I usually try to do. It's not really my genre, as I said, despite that I actually liked a lot of things in this game. And of course yes, in some places the game stabbed me right in the soul, completely poisoning my mood. Though I very rarely associate myself with the main character, here it was probably just my empathy for the characters, which made me feel so disgusted that I immediately wanted to turn the game off and try to restore my mood by watching something cute (or perform catgirls therapy).
Overall, I think this game is a work of art for true fans of this genre. It does exactly what is expected of it - it stabs you right in the heart. While of course, this game still has some frankly absurd things that make you smile. And probably it would work better, if Harry wasn't an idiot.
The best thing in this game is the rules system. As soon as I first saw it, I was very happy that someone was finally beginning to come up with something original. And I was thinking to myself: Damn, I wish there were more games like that, but with gameplay bound to these rules and in other genres (corruption and trainer games, for example).
In fact, I played this game a long time ago, but I hesitated to voice my opinion. All in all, because, I rather do not consider myself a fan of this genre, although I can play games with it.
Second thing would be sex scene description and animations (which improved significantly from my first playthrough (which was before any ending was added))
The best part was the first part of the game, rules introduction, Laura was struggling with her feelings, she hated Luca will all her guts and she was quite strong-willed. After that, when Luca broke her mind, I rather began to lose interest, plus this game don't offer much of the choices for Harry, so I ended up feeling disgusted with him. I couldn't find strength to finish this game, after that. I skipped through the last parts of the game, when HC introduced endings, and was a bit disappointed by them. Because I really wanted to choose to save Laura, but the options I chose still don't have an ending. I also wanted to try to pursue Aya instead of Laura, but judging by the comments, I guess it will be another pain session for Harry. Maybe I could enjoy it, since the sex scenes the author writes are really hot, but I would have to gather all my hatred towards Harry to will be able to enjoy them.
I really enjoyed a new scene in the abrupt route, it was really sexy and exactly what my voyeuristic fetish wanted. The only thing I don't liked it's the black screen after Harry takes the knife. Come on, it's not the 12+ game, we all adults here, why not to show how harry will finish the bastard off (But previously humiliating him in every way for all the pain he caused him (and the player))? I also would like to see an ending where Harry not an idiot and understand that Laura cheating on him and he will break up with her. But I'm afraid that would be already against the main idea of the game, which we see throughout the whole story. That Harry is just a dumb idiot who has to suffer.
Sorry, for long post, just wanted to share these thoughts about the game. I also wanted to submit a rating to this game, but I'm afraid I can't write it objectively enough like I usually try to do. It's not really my genre, as I said, despite that I actually liked a lot of things in this game. And of course yes, in some places the game stabbed me right in the soul, completely poisoning my mood. Though I very rarely associate myself with the main character, here it was probably just my empathy for the characters, which made me feel so disgusted that I immediately wanted to turn the game off and try to restore my mood by watching something cute (or perform catgirls therapy).
Overall, I think this game is a work of art for true fans of this genre. It does exactly what is expected of it - it stabs you right in the heart. While of course, this game still has some frankly absurd things that make you smile. And probably it would work better, if Harry wasn't an idiot.
So you were enjoying the game (up to a point) not because of the main kink but despite it. Nothing wrong with that. If you provide feedback while disclosing that information - it is also fine. The problems start when someone gives feedback pretending to be a fan while trying to stray the game from its original goal.
@ Rating : do you believe it is fair to write review for game about kink you are not a fan of? I think that "objective review" doesn't really cut it. These games are not written with aim of being a good piece of fiction, they are written to satisfy its audience kink and that often comes at cost of "good writing".
"probably it would work better, if Harry wasn't an idiot." Ok the task is to write story where the girl repeatedly cheats on MC with him being around, talking to him, having eye contact etc. The MC can't be into NTR nor be aware of being cheated. How do you do that without making the MC dumb in some capacity or using supernatural factors?
The NTR genre attracts a broad array of people who come to it looking for different things. Sometimes very different things. Of course, it also attracts those who just want to rage at the kink, but those people are easy to pick out.
However, your quoted comment raises the question: How does one differentiate between someone who is 'pretending to be a fan' of NTR from someone who merely enjoys it for different reasons?
Personally, I would classify HC's brand of NTR (both 'The Edge Of' and APBLU) as 'Misery NTR'. The kind of NTR where the MC's suffering is basically as essential as the FMC's corruption. Obviously, even within the NTR fandom, that isn't going to be to everyone's taste and criticism is bound to crop up when people come here looking for one thing and find something else.
At face value, it seems like you're erroneously dismissing anyone who is too critical as a 'pretender' to the fandom. Then again, I might be misunderstanding you, which is why I am asking you to explain how you can tell when someone is only 'pretending to like NTR' as opposed to when they just prefer a different kind of NTR.
The NTR genre attracts a broad array of people who come to it looking for different things. Sometimes very different things. Of course, it also attracts those who just want to rage at the kink, but those people are easy to pick out.
However, your quoted comment raises the question: How does one differentiate between someone who is 'pretending to be a fan' of NTR from someone who merely enjoys it for different reasons?
Personally, I would classify HC's brand of NTR (both 'The Edge Of' and APBLU) as 'Misery NTR'. The kind of NTR where the MC's suffering is basically as essential as the FMC's corruption. Obviously, even within the NTR fandom, that isn't going to be to everyone's taste and criticism is bound to crop up when people come here looking for one thing and find something else.
At face value, it seems like you're erroneously dismissing anyone who is too critical as a 'pretender' to the fandom. Then again, I might be misunderstanding you, which is why I am asking you to explain how you can tell when someone is only 'pretending to like NTR' as opposed to when they just prefer a different kind of NTR.
Many people make comment or review the game as if they have genuine interest in it. But if you inspect them they don't have history of liking NTR games or they are simping for some title and crap reviewing the competition. If by their activity I can tell "Oh this person likes netorase" "this one dislikes cheating" I'm sure they know what they are doing. But then on the other side there are people that for example want MC to be innocent, someone they can sympathize with and those people didn't like Edge of as MC was rather bad person. Now all of them will be dissatisfied with how Sam was written but it may be hard to tell who is into hard netorare. That is why I said it is a problem.
You are rising a different issue here that could be simplified to "how do you tell if someone is lying on internet" ... You can have some idea about persons preferences by checking their activity and talking to them about other games they like but you can't be sure.
I gotta be honest, the idea that you can accurately determine someone's interests based on what they 'liked' on f9zone is weak at best. You couldn't accurately guess mine, for example. I like much more than NTR. Would I be a 'fake fan' if I suddenly criticized a genre I consume but have never interacted with on this site?
Quizzing people on their gaming history is a bit better, but it comes off as gatekeeping. Be careful with that. You'll end up making unnecessary enemies. Besides, not having history with NTR games could just mean you are talking to a 'new' fan rather than a 'fake' one and it doesn't make their perferences any less valid.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are fakers and trolls here, but you're kidding yourself if you think you can find them with the approach you just described.
Funnily enough, you'd have been better off reducing you're entire post to it's final words:
Honestly i believe that the reason Helen won was because of massive Laura/Luca fatigue. The option to have anything different was a much needed palate cleanser compared to what we have gotten up to this point.
So you were enjoying the game (up to a point) not because of the main kink but despite it. Nothing wrong with that. If you provide feedback while disclosing that information - it is also fine. The problems start when someone gives feedback pretending to be a fan while trying to stray the game from its original goal.
Mostly that. Though, corruption is my favorite genre, but like I said, up until the point Laura broke, it was pretty cool. I wish there were more games with a female protagonist who remains more or less the same person, despite the fact that the world is trying to change her in every way. Because the same trope where they become broken fuck toys starting to get tiring. Some of these characters in several games from the beginning are just too wonderful or too cute and you want them to remain that way. It would be great to see them having sex without turning into human husk in the end. Besides, it might be more rewarding for a player, if it's ntr game that also have a happy end.
Rating : do you believe it is fair to write review for game about kink you are not a fan of? I think that "objective review" doesn't really cut it. These games are not written with aim of being a good piece of fiction, they are written to satisfy its audience kink and that often comes at cost of "good writing".
That's what I'm saying. I probably couldn't write an objective review. Mostly because, in this particular game, I was attached to Laura (at the beginning at least). But if I still wanted to do it, I could just keep it short, write about what things you could expect and neutral things that not connected to ntr. It might be writing, quality of sex scenes, animations and of course rules system. Like I said, rules system is the super interesting feature that deserve to be used as instrument in other projects too. Especially in the trainers games. But if I even advertise this feature as something that should be seen, not many people will still want to try it, though. Because it might hurt their mood if they have a low tolerance for NTR. So that's why I'm holding myself.
"probably it would work better, if Harry wasn't an idiot." Ok the task is to write story where the girl repeatedly cheats on MC with him being around, talking to him, having eye contact etc. The MC can't be into NTR nor be aware of being cheated. How do you do that without making the MC dumb in some capacity or using supernatural factors?
It wouldn't be that explicit and obvious, for sure. But it still possible. Characters will have to, instead of fucking in front of the main character, think about how to quickly escape. They'd try to up the stakes, for the price of risk to be caught, but they'd think through every move they made, so they wouldn't get caught. The main character would always be literally seconds late to catch them red-handed. Unlike this game, where Luca and Laura essentially humiliate the dumbass. But to be honest, I think I wouldn't like to play such a game, because the game would encourage paranoid thoughts and behavior. I remember how I recently played Nebel geist jager, and it's literary was a boyfriend stalker simulator. I think I felt even shittier after this game than I did after this game. I just turned the game off, deciding that I don't want to sink deeper into this paranoid stalker routine. The art and scenes are top notch though, I can't argue with that. Maybe I'll go back to it again, but I'll have to get through it with the cheats, so I don't have to think too much about it, lol.
And the last suggestion, the MC could figure out their affair at some point, but still will be too afraid to confront her, because he will be feared to lose her if he did so. So instead, he will try to win her over. Or he might find it enjoying on some point, but it will be netorase, I suppose?
I gotta be honest, the idea that you can accurately determine someone's interests based on what they 'liked' on f9zone is weak at best. You couldn't accurately guess mine, for example. I like much more than NTR. Would I be a 'fake fan' if I suddenly criticized a genre I consume but have never interacted with on this site?
Quizzing people on their gaming history is a bit better, but it comes off as gatekeeping. Be careful with that. You'll end up making unnecessary enemies. Besides, not having history with NTR games could just mean you are talking to a 'new' fan rather than a 'fake' one and it doesn't make their perferences any less valid.
Agree with that. I played a lot of games, and not that many of those where I left comments. This method can certainly give some basic information about preferences, but in general it is certainly not worth relying on it as the main one. Sometimes, by the way, it's interesting to look at a user's history if you liked their review of a particular game and want to find something that that user thinks is worth checking out.
Mostly that. Though, corruption is my favorite genre, but like I said, up until the point Laura broke, it was pretty cool. I wish there were more games with a female protagonist who remains more or less the same person, despite the fact that the world is trying to change her in every way. Because the same trope where they become broken fuck toys starting to get tiring. Some of these characters in several games from the beginning are just too wonderful or too cute and you want them to remain that way. It would be great to see them having sex without turning into human husk in the end. Besides, it might be more rewarding for a player, if it's ntr game that also have a happy end.
That's what I'm saying. I probably couldn't write an objective review. Mostly because, in this particular game, I was attached to Laura (at the beginning at least). But if I still wanted to do it, I could just keep it short, write about what things you could expect and neutral things that not connected to ntr. It might be writing, quality of sex scenes, animations and of course rules system. Like I said, rules system is the super interesting feature that deserve to be used as instrument in other projects too. Especially in the trainers games. But if I even advertise this feature as something that should be seen, not many people will still want to try it, though. Because it might hurt their mood if they have a low tolerance for NTR. So that's why I'm holding myself.
It wouldn't be that explicit and obvious, for sure. But it still possible. Characters will have to, instead of fucking in front of the main character, think about how to quickly escape. They'd try to up the stakes, for the price of risk to be caught, but they'd think through every move they made, so they wouldn't get caught. The main character would always be literally seconds late to catch them red-handed. Unlike this game, where Luca and Laura essentially humiliate the dumbass. But to be honest, I think I wouldn't like to play such a game, because the game would encourage paranoid thoughts and behavior. I remember how I recently played Nebel geist jager, and it's literary was a boyfriend stalker simulator. I think I felt even shittier after this game than I did after this game. I just turned the game off, deciding that I don't want to sink deeper into this paranoid stalker routine. The art and scenes are top notch though, I can't argue with that. Maybe I'll go back to it again, but I'll have to get through it with the cheats, so I don't have to think too much about it, lol.
And the last suggestion, the MC could figure out their affair at some point, but still will be too afraid to confront her, because he will be feared to lose her if he did so. So instead, he will try to win her over. Or he might find it enjoying on some point, but it will be netorase, I suppose?
Interesting that you are into corruption yet you want the heroine to remain pure. Is it for the sake of diversifying the experience, having played too many corruption you get bored of it and you seek something new?
It would be horrible if they had to stop because MC would be about to find out, that's pure blue balling. And it is important for them to be "fucking in front" of MC, that is like the peak of NTR content.
Nebel geist jager - i see this title mentioned again, i can't imagine enjoying NTR with MTL translation.
Yes it would be netorase. its like hitting masochist - boring.
[Next Release – Hero Path 4/5 (V0.7.6) – Released January 17th (2PM EST)]
====================================================== Progress (A Promise Best Left Unkept):
Laura's route: ~76%
Aya's route: 0% why why whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy 0.0.0.0.0.0% Ayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Number of words: ~282 000 words
Number of CG sets: 95 CG sets
Number of sex scenes: 46 Sex Scenes
Interesting that you are into corruption yet you want the heroine to remain pure. Is it for the sake of diversifying the experience, having played too many corruption you get bored of it and you seek something new?
Well yeah, but with different variations, either she remains herself but not that pure, though. Or she just becomes more open to sex. I noticed that when female character become mindless sex slave it's no longer interesting. And lurking through threads, I saw this same opinion from different users, as well. So, yeah, I'm bored that it's always the same story, I like to see different approaches and different ending results for the characters.
It would be horrible if they had to stop because MC would be about to find out, that's pure blue balling. And it is important for them to be "fucking in front" of MC, that is like the peak of NTR content.
You don't get it. The act will happen, it's just that the MC will be a little late, so he won't have time to catch them. Well, you asked for clever MC I gave my thoughts and who like it or not, it's a different story. Some people like fooling dumbasses and fuck in front of them. But others may sympathize with MC and feel that this is a betrayal on the part of his beloved that he couldn't stop, and while they do all this in secret, MC can only suspect, but without proof he can do nothing. I think that's what this game was about, but without the stupidity on the part of the main character. It's just that the main character was unlucky, which would probably arouse even more sympathy towards him.
There is a fan translation dropped recently (in the translation request thread), you might want to check it out. I didn't try it, so can't tell anything about quality. Official translation under way and be finished in few months from today. I played with Mtool and it wasn't that bad. Honestly, most of the games are okay with MTL, because most of them pretty much similar to each other. Life is too short to wait for all these official translations (But I have my own list of games translations that I'm waiting for). And the MTL is improving each year.
To each their own. I find this more willing to play.
But in this example, if he doesn't enjoy it, but still tries to win her heart, I don't think it would be considered netorase.
