RPGM A Struggle with Sin [v0.6.1.1b] [Chyos]

[Satyr90]

I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like you would still reject NTR as netorare, but accept NTR as netorase as a point of compromise.

ok, let me be more specific. let's say I lose to a bunch of fights to orcs and lose the respect of Tia. She completely Cucks me. refuses to have sex with me, actively humiliates me, does the whole "oh I still love the MC, but this orc cock is so good." I'M OKAY WITH THAT. Why? because I lost. I deserve it. So long as there is at least hope in the beginning of the game I can turn It around. I wouldn't want to end a game with that ending. I'm not a masochist, I want to win her over but I want the option to fail and witness the fallout.

I'm even ok with it happening in a quest. let's take the Mira update as an example. In the upcoming update the developer said that it's possible to lose her (don't know how). If I made a mistake in the game either by already corrupting her family, or failing a quest, losing a fight, then as a result I lose the girl and have to endure seeing her with another guy will it make me happy. No. Will I accept it yes. In fact I'd like the game more because of it. Because it allowed me to have that failure and see the end result. If the developer introduces a pregnancy system and allows me to see Mira with another man who won her and I get to see them start a family then I'd be pissed at first yeah, but I'd absolutely love the game that much more. However if it's some stupid question like "okay gamer do you want to lose Mira forever or be with her? Make your choice!" I'm going to be very pissed.

 

[Evangelion-01]

My whole point in one simple question.... If the NTR in this game is used as a punishment then how is it a punishment when literally every aspect of the NTR in the Kate storyline from Rick, Thomas, whoring, dancing, clothes, EVERYTHING is completely in the MC's control? The two things can't both be true. Either the NTR is a path for people to intentionally choose to take OR it's to be used as a punishment for failing a mission, quest, fight, ect.

I love the NTR used as punishment. I can even love when NTR is even your choice like swinging. However why is punishment NTR my choice? Allowing Rick to fuck kate when she's your girlfriend, ok if your into that then that's great. But if I have to actively work to set them up together... why? It should be a punishment for fucking up.

I think you oversimplify the work it would require to create such options for EVERY character... I am pretty sure Chyos originally only intended a few Characters to have NTr content based on either Quests or combat... but the fact that each and every character is supposed to have NTR now makes such an approach unattanabel... and more than less interesting for the people that actually try to avoid that content.
From my point of view your approach will turn this game into an NTR focused game rather than a game that has OPTIONALLY NTR content

ok, let me be more specific. let's say I lose to a bunch of fights to orcs and lose the respect of Tia. She completely Cucks me. refuses to have sex with me, actively humiliates me, does the whole "oh I still love the MC, but this orc cock is so good." I'M OKAY WITH THAT. Why? because I lost. I deserve it. So long as there is at least hope in the beginning of the game I can turn It around. I wouldn't want to end a game with that ending. I'm not a masochist, I want to win her over but I want the option to fail and witness the fallout.

I'm even ok with it happening in a quest. let's take the Mira update as an example. In the upcoming update the developer said that it's possible to lose her (don't know how). If I made a mistake in the game either by already corrupting her family, or failing a quest, losing a fight, then as a result I lose the girl and have to endure seeing her with another guy will it make me happy. No. Will I accept it yes. In fact I'd like the game more because of it. Because it allowed me to have that failure and see the end result. If the developer introduces a pregnancy system and allows me to see Mira with another man who won her and I get to see them start a family then I'd be pissed at first yeah, but I'd absolutely love the game that much more. However if it's some stupid question like "okay gamer do you want to lose Mira forever or be with her? Make your choice!" I'm going to be very pissed.

A valid and very liberate way to view this... but sadly you are the minority here... most people would scream and kick, unpledge the game and/or even demand it to be removed from the Forum.
I think Chyos is walking a tight rope and somehow manages to keep the balance which is even more adimireable.

Well, when you go to block Frisha from visiting Dave, don't give an option to interfere or don't interfere. Just make it so the MC interferes. Or if you don't block her within a certain time limit, you fail the quest. That's one possibility. I admit there needs to be more considered with that questline, but it's a start.

Chyos did that at first but moved away from this since it required the Player to be in town at a specific date and time, with the improved daily scedules I am not even sure this Eventing would still work aswell.
Also Frisha hates you from throwing her into the mud rather than appreciate you lloking out for her. The curren Version gives a far better reason and explanation for why Frisha warms up to the MC

 

[Pervy Sensei]

ok, let me be more specific. let's say I lose to a bunch of fights to orcs and lose the respect of Tia. She completely Cucks me. refuses to have sex with me, actively humiliates me, does the whole "oh I still love the MC, but this orc cock is so good." I'M OKAY WITH THAT. Why? because I lost. I deserve it. So long as there is at least hope in the beginning of the game I can turn It around. I wouldn't want to end a game with that ending. I'm not a masochist, I want to win her over but I want the option to fail and witness the fallout.

I'm even ok with it happening in a quest. let's take the Mira update as an example. In the upcoming update the developer said that it's possible to lose her (don't know how). If I made a mistake in the game either by already corrupting her family, or failing a quest, losing a fight, then as a result I lose the girl and have to endure seeing her with another guy will it make me happy. No. Will I accept it yes. In fact I'd like the game more because of it. Because it allowed me to have that failure and see the end result. If the developer introduces a pregnancy system and allows me to see Mira with another man who won her and I get to see them start a family then I'd be pissed at first yeah, but I'd absolutely love the game that much more. However if it's some stupid question like "okay gamer do you want to lose Mira forever or be with her? Make your choice!" I'm going to be very pissed.

Okay, so netorase and netorare are okay, as long as the netorare is punishment for failure? Well, I'm not much a fan of netorase, but it does make sense it would be optional content, and I guess I can live with just choosing against it whenever the option comes up.

 

[Satyr90]

I think you oversimplify the work it would require to create such options for EVERY character... I am pretty sure Chyos originally only intended a few Characters to have NTr content based on either Quests or combat... but the fact that each and every character is supposed to have NTR now makes such an approach unattanabel... and more than less interesting for the people that actually try to avoid that content.
From my point of view your approach will turn this game into an NTR focused game rather than a game that has OPTIONALLY NTR content

I tried to express gratitude in the original post. I LOVE THIS GAME. 5/5. I'm not a programmer and I've stated this repeatedly. I was just ranting to myself frustrated with this one specific issue with the game. Not all the NTR just how some of the punishment NTR was solely in the players control. And wanted to express a desire to see the NTR more contextualized, for lack of a better word. I want the punishment NTR to be a punishment.

 

[Evangelion-01]

I tried to express gratitude in the original post. I LOVE THIS GAME. 5/5. I'm not a programmer and I've stated this repeatedly. I was just ranting to myself frustrated with this one specific issue with the game. Not all the NTR just how some of the punishment NTR was solely in the players control. And wanted to express a desire to see the NTR more contextualized, for lack of a better word. I want the punishment NTR to be a punishment.

I can see that but I am trying to say that people already find this forced NTR on sepcial occassions to much... improving this content will shift the balance of the game and I am pretty sure that will hurt Chyos in the long run.
I don't think there is a perfect way to balance all of these interest so compromises needs to be made... and Chyos seem to have found quiet an interesting one wihout focing the matter or disrespect any of his supporters

 

[Satyr90]

Okay, so netorase and netorare are okay, as long as the netorare is punishment for failure? Well, I'm not much a fan of netorase, but it does make sense it would be optional content, and I guess I can live with just choosing against it whenever the option comes up.

I'm not too familiar with the specific definitions but I would like the NTR used properly so to speak. I'm ok with swinging, or open relationship as long as the girl is corrupted and she's already yours then go for it. Hell, you could give players the option to set up auto scenes like every three days or every Saturday or whatever (not a programmer just fantasizing) If your dating Kate and want to whore her out and treat her like a slut go for it. However I also want the option if I get my ass kicked and my girl stolen then let me live with it. let me see them happy ever after getting knocked up having kids, ect. If I lose Tia to a tribe of orcs because I cant win any fights then so be it. If Mira thinks I'm the Devil because I've corrupted her family and runs off with another man then let me live with the consequences. Don't have some bullshit yes or no decision for the girl like in Frisha.

 

[Satyr90]

I can see that but I am trying to say that people already find this forced NTR on sepcial occassions to much... improving this content will shift the balance of the game and I am pretty sure that will hurt Chyos in the long run.
I don't think there is a perfect way to balance all of these interest so compromises needs to be made... and Chyos seem to have found quiet an interesting one wihout focing the matter or disrespect any of his supporters

If it's an issue then either turn it off or find a way to separate it with a tag or something (again not a programmer). Like at the start of the game "hey, Do you want to enable Punishment (forced for failure) NTR content?" You had to answer a question like that in the game in the beginning to enable ALL NTR content. Now all you have to to is categorize it into forced and not force based on the story and scenario.

 

[Pervy Sensei]

I don't understand why F95 people keep arguing over a fucked up Japanese hentai trope.

We aren't arguing over the meaning of NTR, just its execution in the game; so not the usual argument, I think.

Most of all, this weird trope has absolutely nothing to do with your Real Life Sexual Experiences in any way, since if you experienced in your everyday life that your woman cucked you, you wouldn't say: "she netorared me, this is outrageous! the Dev shoudn't have put it in the game. I'm gonna stop pledging his Patreon!", at all.

Most of the games on F95 don't have to do with anyone's real life sexual experiences, so that isn't saying much.

I pledge quite a bit to the dev, so it's not about pledging or not, it's just about a critique of how the execution of the game fails to live up to the design. I'd just like to see the game be even better than it is. But of course I am a huge fan, of both the game and the dev, nonetheless.

 

[Pervy Sensei]

I'm not too familiar with the specific definitions but I would like the NTR used properly so to speak.

Netorase is basically netorare, except that the MC is okay with it or even encourages it.

 

[Evangelion-01]

If it's an issue then either turn it off or find a way to separate it with a tag or something (again not a programmer). Like at the start of the game "hey, Do you want to enable Punishment (forced for failure) NTR content?" You had to answer a question like that in the game in the beginning to enable ALL NTR content. Now all you have to to is categorize it into forced and not force based on the story and scenario.

The point is that your point of view is close to a singularity... definately a minority... changeing the game to better fit your tastes will take quiet a while in which no other content can be created... given that the majority of the people either want to see "no NTR" or "NTR only" the development is moveing further away from a middle path you hope to see... and the longer the game follows those courses the harder it will become to create a well balanced middle path.
Again I am aware that you don't want to force this change or even make it the reason for your pledge... but I kinda fail make it any clearer

 

[Pervy Sensei]

Chyos did that at first but moved away from this since it required the Player to be in town at a specific date and time, with the improved daily scedules I am not even sure this Eventing would still work aswell.
Also Frisha hates you from throwing her into the mud rather than appreciate you lloking out for her. The curren Version gives a far better reason and explanation for why Frisha warms up to the MC

If the quest log indicated the relevant time and dates, maybe it would have been easier. Also how else to fail a quest like that? It makes sense to fail it that way by missing the time and dates.

I don't recall the change in Frisha's questline, so I don't have anything to say to that. Last I recalled is that interfering did cause her to go into the mud, but it's been awhile since I played.

Also, with reference to other comments you have been making, I'm not so sure a change in the NTR back to its game design will lead to an overwhelming exodus of patron support. There are plenty of patrons on the discord who are vocally not into the NTR, and a lot of the NTR folks are happy so long as there is a way to get to the content they want. The first group can choose the no NTR option when starting the game, the second group can purposely fail quests. It's not hard.

Maybe coming up with valid NTR options for each character according to the punishment design is challenging, but not impossible, and if taken slowly and presented one by one as part of each new option added to the content poll, it should surely be doable.

 

[Evangelion-01]

I don't recall the change in Frisha's questline, so I don't have anything to say to that. Last I recalled is that interfering did cause her to go into the mud, but it's been awhile since I played.

Originally you were supposed to stop her from seeing Dave by throwing her in the mud, maybe Chyos original plan was that after a set amount of missed dates he'd call her a lier and stop inviting her... but again Frisha would hate you even more for that, since she WANTS to be with Dave in order to have an easy live.
currently stopping her by sending her into the mud is an option if you can't enter the major's house any otherway or lack the Traits to advance (like Perception>=1), but it won't advance her story only postpone it for a week

 

[Satyr90]

Netorase is basically netorare, except that the MC is okay with it or even encourages it.

So correct me if i'm wrong...

Netorase is like Swinging or a polyamorous relationship. Where you encourage your partner to have sex with others it doesn't have to be limited to something like cuckolding does it?

Netorare is done against their will. Like if the MC lost a fight and Tia willingly slept with the victor because she respected him more.


Am I getting any of this correct?

 

[Evangelion-01]

Netorase: The Partner forces or encourages his/her Love interest to sleep with other men/women, either in order to whore her/him out or for self sexual gratification
Netorare: The Love interest sleeps with other men/women without the Partners consense or knowledge and either neglects him/her or is unsatisfied if with them.... eventually has the tendency of breaking the couple up... in a story you follow the view of the person that is being cheated on.
Netori: The Person is stealing a Love interest of someone else (aka reversed netorare)

 

[Satyr90]

Netorase: The Partner forces or encourages his/her Love interest to sleep with other men/women, either in order to whore her/him out or for self sexual gratification
Netorare: The Love interest sleeps with other men/women without the Partners consense or knowledge and either neglects him/her or is unsatisfied if with them.... eventually has the tendency of breaking the couple up... in a story you follow the view of the person that is being cheated on.
Netori: The Person is stealing a Love interest of someone else (aka reversed netorare)

Thank you

 

[Pervy Sensei]

Originally you were supposed to stop her from seeing Dave by throwing her in the mud, maybe Chyos original plan was that after a set amount of missed dates he'd call her a lier and stop inviting her... but again Frisha would hate you even more for that, since she WANTS to be with Dave in order to have an easy live.
currently stopping her by sending her into the mud is an option if you can't enter the major's house any otherway or lack the Traits to advance (like Perception>=1), but it won't advance her story only postpone it for a week

Okay, yes, I remember it this way. It certainly does make more sense. Thinking about it this way, maybe the interfere/don't interfere choice is more about whether you want to postpone the quest for a week, or decide to pursue the quest that day by spying on Frisha and Dave/Dave's family dinner. If you throw her into the mud, you can't continue with completing the quest, right? Guess I didn't think that one all the way through.

 

[Satyr90]

I'm not so sure a change in the NTR back to its game design will lead to an overwhelming exodus of patron support. There are plenty of patrons on the discord who are vocally not into the NTR, and a lot of the NTR folks are happy so long as there is a way to get to the content they want. The first group can choose the no NTR option when starting the game, the second group can purposely fail quests. It's not hard.

Maybe coming up with valid NTR options for each character according to the punishment design is challenging, but not impossible, and if taken slowly and presented one by one as part of each new option added to the content poll, it should surely be doable.

I couldn't have said it better myself. While I do believe it is going to be difficult to please everyone I don't necessarily think everyone's goals or desires for the game are contradictory. People that want NTR content can get NTR content and those that don't typically will just turn it off. Simple. The most challenging part would be the placement in the poll in order to get the content put into the game. It could be done when updating characters like for example Tia (since we talked about her already). Update her quests and add a few NTR updates. You get her new father quests, a scenes or two, ect. and put in a new NTR system for the orcs. That way you try to keep everyone happy.

 

[Evangelion-01]

Maybe coming up with valid NTR options for each character according to the punishment design is challenging, but not impossible, and if taken slowly and presented one by one as part of each new option added to the content poll, it should surely be doable.

Personally I think this Option wouldn't get much support... as you said yourself the both factions (NTR|NO NTR) only want content for their own taste/satisfication. In this discussion a third faction came to light, but I can't see this faction gaining many members as normal people would only be interested in joining either of the before mentioned.
redoing the early stages of each Character to remake the triggers for the NTR route so they are based on either a time limited Quest or outcome of a certain combat event does not add anything to the game but a certain flavor, so I can't see this becomeing a thing until after the game is completed and no more additional content is added.

I couldn't have said it better myself. While I do believe it is going to be difficult to please everyone I don't necessarily think everyone's goals or desires for the game are contradictory. People that want NTR content can get NTR content and those that don't typically will just turn it off. Simple. The most challenging part would be the placement in the poll in order to get the content put into the game. It could be done when updating characters like for example Tia (since we talked about her already). Update her quests and add a few NTR updates. You get her new father quests, a scenes or two, ect. and put in a new NTR system for the orcs. That way you try to keep everyone happy.

Chyos NEVER dedicated entire Updates to either NTR or Vanilla Route as far as I recall and doing that would play favors to either faction either starting a flame war in the Polls or even risking to break it completly apart... if you continuesly get NTR focused Updates because there are more fans of that content on his Patreon people disliking this content would certainly leave as they see no Option that their prefered content would get added in duo time and eventually fall to far behind... or vice versa.
A character based Update that contains content for both routes is probably the best compromise Chyos could have made...
One the other hand that causes quiet a high Workload on Chyos as he has to create content for both routes of said character each month.
reworking older stuff without adding content is not well received aswell... just remembering the first Poll for remakeing some of the first stuff... that Option was around for nearly an entire year.

 

[Satyr90]

Chyos NEVER dedicated entire Updates to either NTR or Vanilla Route as far as I recall and doing that would play favors to either faction either starting a flame war in the Polls or even risking to break it completly apart... if you continuesly get NTR focused Updates because there are more fans of that content on his Patreon people disliking this content would certainly leave as they see no Option that their prefered content would get added in duo time and eventually fall to far behind... or vice versa.
A character based Update that contains content for both routes is probably the best compromise Chyos could have made...
One the other hand that causes quiet a high Workload on Chyos as he has to create content for both routes of said character each month.
reworking older stuff without adding content is not well received aswell... just remembering the first Poll for remakeing some of the first stuff... that Option was around for nearly an entire year.

1st I never said the ENTIRE update had to be dedicated to NTR. I said you could include some aspects of NTR in it so the NTR fans are happy. Think of it as rather than getting a gallon of water in a day your getting a cup a month until the gallon is reached.

2nd While I was unhappy with the way some of the NTR has turned out so far I believe it'd be far more productive to look forward rather than looking backward. For example I think It'd be useful to either create an optional Netorase (I think this is the category it'd fall under) for Tia. Something like If your the Chief and you have the Orcs under your control It'd be fun to share. Maybe try to make it possible to for the MC to set up an auto visit should you not have sex with Tia in a while. So you don't have sex with Tia in 3 days and she goes over to the orc camp for some fun. The MC has sex with orcs, Tia has sex with orcs, everyone wins. Swinging or whatever you want to call it. Or You could create an Netorare system where if you keep losing to orcs in battle then Tia just refuses to sleep with you because she thinks your a useless cuck. Such a system is already started with the "watching her chop wood" action. Take that apply it to the battle field and then add a scale system. If you win you go up, you lose you go down. It's hinted in the game as her preference, but you could take it a step further.

 

[Pervy Sensei]

Personally I think this Option wouldn't get much support... as you said yourself the both factions (NTR|NO NTR) only want content for their own taste/satisfication. In this discussion a third faction came to light, but I can't see this faction gaining many members as normal people would only be interested in joining either of the before mentioned.
redoing the early stages of each Character to remake the triggers for the NTR route so they are based on either a time limited Quest or outcome of a certain combat event does not add anything to the game but a certain flavor, so I can't see this becomeing a thing until after the game is completed and no more additional content is added.

I don't know in advance what (normal) people are interested in, but I do know I would normally fall into the "No NTR" camp. Still, I am interested in the middle way as a better game. Whether one is into NTR or not should be beside the point. I think it is more likely that people who are pure sticklers for one or the other are the ones in the minority, while most would be open to the middle way. The pure sticklers are still accommodated as I said above, so doing the middle way shouldn't get in the way of having patron support. In fact, I am of the mind it could increase the support by making for a more interesting game.

I don't think the triggers for NTR route should have to be based on time limits or outcomes of certain combat events, necessarily. Those are a couple of ways to trigger for punishment, but my guess is that there are many different ways that could be implemented. It's a matter of thinking about the possible ways that a quest can be failed.

I don't know what you mean by not adding anything to the game other than giving the game a certain flavor. This sounds like you just want to downplay the idea. Really, it's a mechanic, adding an edge to the game not normally found in rpg's, to replace the "game over" idea typically found in classic rpg's. It's really a pretty cool idea, imho, and would make this game unique if executed according to the design.