Ren'Py Apartment #69 [v0.08] [Luxee]

[Spider-Venom]

And how does one differentiate from the two? I remember playing a game where the game was explaining detail and a peeping scene was made up of several paragraphs that filled up the entire page. I really disliked it, and grew bored quickly. So, if I told the dev his game was boring, is that criticism or not?

For most people, it's just criticism. However, if someone actually liked the game, and liked the wordiness of it, than it's just me being an asshole is it not? If someone hates pregnancy content, and complains about how much pregnancy content exists within a particular game, is that not being an asshole for someone who loves pregnancy content?

The problem is that the moment we start assuming any part of criticism is trolling, than we may as well assume all criticism is trolling.

that's an example of criticism. however, if you're just gonna stay here, bashing the same shit every fucking release -- that's just being toxic and you ain't doing shit other than making it hell for everyone else. this game has a trans girl who was always the focal point of this game and has always been. to continue bashing it because of your own insecurity after every fucking update and just making the thread toxic and taking advantage of such an accommodating dev is just someone who wants to bring in drama. that is the differnce.

 

[chainedpanda]

that's an example of criticism. however, if you're just gonna stay here, bashing the same shit every fucking release -- that's just being toxic and you ain't doing shit other than making it hell for everyone else. this game has a trans girl who was always the focal point of this game and has always been. to continue bashing it because of your own insecurity after every fucking update and just making the thread toxic and taking advantage of such an accommodating dev is just someone who wants to bring in drama. that is the differnce.

Now I'm even more convinced both you and the dev are full of shit. Nothing about this game tells me the Trans character is the focus. The family are the first characters introduced, and the game is designed in such a way that it incentives you to interact with the family first. If all that wasn't enough to make you think they'll be the focus, the mother is literally the first thing people will see once they click on this game.

However, I do agree that she is the focus. She was the best character by far. She's the only character I actually finished and is likely the main reason why most of us actually like this game. That easily makes us, who like the character, extremely biased in that regard. Plus, the family may be the focus of the GAME, but she is the focus of the DEV. They are two different things here.

As such, the game is misleading to players. Not everyone is attracted to trans, and that's perfectly acceptable. I know you'll say something along the lines of "if you don't like it, don't play it" or "look at the tags", but that's a terrible take. Just because I don't like feet content, doesn't mean I'm going to skip the footjob tag. It doesn't make sense for me to do so since very few games are hyper focused on feet. The same for lesbian, femdom, rape, and of course futa/trans.

The truth of the matter is that all content besides the trans character either sucked, or was average at best. However, because the trans character was so great, it makes those of us who like that content see the game more fondly than it deserved. If the game was a simple game dedicated to the trans character, it would likely be my favorite game, but it isn't.

So, you show everyone the focus is on incest... Than you focus on the trans character? Of course people will annoyed! To say otherwise is complete bullshit. Either you are blind by your bias, or you're just full of shit. Based on everything you've said, and I've seen, it seems like the entire problem was because the dev was misleading everyone. Why would I want someone like that to come back?

 

[Squark ⚧❤️]

Though I adore Nea, I would like to see more content with other characters.

 

[Spider-Venom]

Now I'm even more convinced both you and the dev are full of shit. Nothing about this game tells me the Trans character is the focus. The family are the first characters introduced, and the game is designed in such a way that it incentives you to interact with the family first. If all that wasn't enough to make you think they'll be the focus, the mother is literally the first thing people will see once they click on this game.

However, I do agree that she is the focus. She was the best character by far. She's the only character I actually finished and is likely the main reason why most of us actually like this game. That easily makes us, who like the character, extremely biased in that regard. Plus, the family may be the focus of the GAME, but she is the focus of the DEV. They are two different things here.

As such, the game is misleading to players. Not everyone is attracted to trans, and that's perfectly acceptable. I know you'll say something along the lines of "if you don't like it, don't play it" or "look at the tags", but that's a terrible take. Just because I don't like feet content, doesn't mean I'm going to skip the footjob tag. It doesn't make sense for me to do so since very few games are hyper focused on feet. The same for lesbian, femdom, rape, and of course futa/trans.

The truth of the matter is that all content besides the trans character either sucked, or was average at best. However, because the trans character was so great, it makes those of us who like that content see the game more fondly than it deserved. If the game was a simple game dedicated to the trans character, it would likely be my favorite game, but it isn't.

So, you show everyone the focus is on incest... Than you focus on the trans character? Of course people will annoyed! To say otherwise is complete bullshit. Either you are blind by your bias, or you're just full of shit. Based on everything you've said, and I've seen, it seems like the entire problem was because the dev was misleading everyone. Why would I want someone like that to come back?

It was pretty clear to me that she was the main focus very early on with how much she was being promoted.

 

[chainedpanda]

It was pretty clear to me that she was the main focus very early on with how much she was being promoted.

Anyone who actually played the game would realize she was the developers focus. However that IS the problem. Any new player would simply assume the family was the most important. They dominate OP. Nea is in two pics in the preview, but neither image indicates that she's trans. Furthermore, one of the two pics has her in the background amongst another character that I don't remember.

Even if you don't want to count the promotional material that the majority of players will see, you meet the family by default by just loading the game. You don't meet Nea until you mess around with the sandbox elements. You know what other characters are introduced through the sandbox elements? The side characters that no one really cares about.

Anyway. I do ultimately want the dev to return. He can completely trash this abomination if he wants to. Just trash the whole game and remake it with Nea as the only character. If he did that, the game wouldn't be nearly as popular, but the hate wouldn't be nearly as brutal and I'd be happy (as long as the quality remains). Then he can crawl back into his hole and cry about the mess they made for themselves.

Though I adore Nea, I would like to see more content with other characters.

And I agree with this. If the dev had spent even a fraction of the "focus" they used on other characters, I would put my money on less overall hate. I don't want less Nea tho.

 

[Kaladore]

Good criticism aims to improve the game. It tries to take an positive look on how bad thing are presented and explains why it is perceived as bad. When you offer real critical comment you build a case as to why you believe something is not up to snuff.
Trolling claims x is bad. It offers no added value or even context. Also always reiterating why you think something is bad turns criticism into trolling.

I'd say you making the case that the family is the focus of the game and Nea is the focus of the dev falls under criticism. Comments which like bah remove the trans character, trans games suck, comments which have been abundant are trolling.

This is just my opinion of course

 

[Spider-Venom]

Even if you don't want to count the promotional material that the majority of players will see, you meet the family by default by just loading the game. You don't meet Nea until you mess around with the sandbox elements. You know what other characters are introduced through the sandbox elements? The side characters that no one really cares about.

does that really matter who he meets first? would it make sense skip the family that you're leaving until later?

 

[chainedpanda]

does that really matter who he meets first?....

Absolutely it does. Most games introduce important characters first, oftentimes it's the most important character. They do this simply because the first character you meet tends to leave the biggest impact on the player. Some games may deviate from the norm, but even in those cases the important characters are introduced shortly afterwards. Even in those cases, the introduction of the important character almost always outshines the less important character you met first.

Take a look at Grandma's House. In the intro, we meet a generic punk who we fuck in an airplane bathroom. This was a throwaway character used just to add an easy sex scene. The developer has basically said as much multiple times over the years. Despite this, people continue to ask, and even beg, for her return.

Yet, why is this? She was pretty generic. There wasn't anything unique, or interesting about her. She didn't have a fetish, she wasn't funny, she was just a random punk with the same design we've seen in 20 other games. The reason why people still want her to this day is because the game didn't treat her like a throwaway character. It left the relationship ambiguous with the potential that she could return someday. She left a big impression on the player base despite not being interesting specifically because she was the first character introduced.

You could argue that it's because her relationship was left open ended. However, there are multiple characters with ambiguous endings in that game. Some people do want some of those characters back as well, but many of those characters are objectively many times more interesting than the first character. Most of them had unique character traits, physical traits, or fetishes. However, the first character had nothing except the fact she was a generic punk and the first character.

.... would it make sense skip the family that you're leaving until later?

Honestly, I don't really understand how this is a question. You either lack imagination (unlikely), or you are already influenced that the family is supposed to be the focus. It would make perfect sense for the family not to appear first, in fact, there are countless possible scenarios the dev could have created as alternatives. Here's a random one:

Spoiler: Alternative Start

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[Spider-Venom]

Absolutely it does. Most games introduce important characters first, oftentimes it's the most important character. They do this simply because the first character you meet tends to leave the biggest impact on the player. Some games may deviate from the norm, but even in those cases the important characters are introduced shortly afterwards. Even in those cases, the introduction of the important character almost always outshines the less important character you met first.

Take a look at Grandma's House. In the intro, we meet a generic punk who we fuck in an airplane bathroom. This was a throwaway character used just to add an easy sex scene. The developer has basically said as much multiple times over the years. Despite this, people continue to ask, and even beg, for her return.

that's because he was on his way to his grandmother's house. in this story, we're moving away from home.

Honestly, I don't really understand how this is a question. You either lack imagination (unlikely), or you are already influenced that the family is supposed to be the focus. It would make perfect sense for the family not to appear first, in fact, there are countless possible scenarios the dev could have created as alternatives. Here's a random one:

it sounds like you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[Deleted member 95950]

Most games introduce important characters first, oftentimes it's the most important character.

I don't think this is at all true outside of games with quite small casts of LIs, where you can hardly do otherwise.

 

[chainedpanda]

that's because he was on his way to his grandmother's house. in this story, we're moving away from home.

it sounds like you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

You claimed that those who criticized the game were just starting shit for now reason. My argument is, and always has been that their criticism is justified, even if neither of us agree with them.

In addition, your not even talking about the topic anymore. I answered any questions and criticisms you made with reason and examples. The only reason you think so now is because you're either bored, or you've run out of arguments. I can literally argue this topic forever, because there is a legit answer to them even if you don't like it.

I don't think this is at all true outside of games with quite small casts of LIs, where you can hardly do otherwise.

Nah, I disagree with that too. The difference is that each individual character in a large cast seems less important compared to those in smaller casts. This doesn't necessarily make them unimportant, but it is common for them to become less important over time as they start to blend in with the other characters.

A big troupe for this is that many games utilize one or two characters to act as "guides" in the early game. They tell the player/protagonist various facts and such and eventually fade in with the rest of the group. While they may seem unimportant by the 6th-7th update, they were important for the 1st-2nd.

This is just one example, but I have others. I don't think I really need to argue my opinion anymore since it's clear the other dude gave up. So if someone else wants to chime in with their anti-criticism statements, I don't really see a need to discuss farther.

 

[Spider-Venom]

You claimed that those who criticized the game were just starting shit for now reason. My argument is, and always has been that their criticism is justified, even if neither of us agree with them.

In addition, your not even talking about the topic anymore. I answered any questions and criticisms you made with reason and examples. The only reason you think so now is because you're either bored, or you've run out of arguments. I can literally argue this topic forever, because there is a legit answer to them even if you don't like it.

I never said criticism in itself was bad. we learned about Nea being trans FROM DAY ONE...and it's been the same people saying the shit after every update. if there was a game that I hated it and I followed it and just bashed it after every update and threatening the enjoyment of others... as much as the mods here piss me off with their loose rules -- I'd hope they'd ban me.

 

[Deleted member 95950]

Nah, I disagree with that too.

Obviously - but I'm thinking of, for example, Dreams of Desire and Timestamps: Unconditional Love. Both of those have sister characters who are massively important both as drivers of plot and as LIs. And in both cases, they simply didn't appear in the initial release.

 

[Homealone]

good game, shame it's abandoned now.

 

[Squark ⚧❤️]

good game, shame it's abandoned now.

Not Abandoned anymore. That's just the tag here. F95 is not the oracle of all perversity.

 

[rambo455]

so this game gets abandoned tags every time inbetween updates now ?

 

[Badjourasmix]

Yea if the dev goes radio silent for more than 3 months that is what happens.

 

[rambo455]

They have to complain? Someone is forcing them to behave like an entitled Karen, Kevin or Filius Canis? Is there something we can do to help them have autonomy again?

Seriously, If you don't like a book by an author, don't read it. If you're not in a literature class, no one is forcing you to read it. I seriously doubt any college has a class on AVNs, so I would think that no one is being forced to read/play this story.
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looks like one of the assholes in the deluca family.

 

[Rutonat]

You know, I'm in support of the content everyone hates and would love for it to come back. But, to claim those complaining just "can't handle diversity", you could make an identical statement to the dev who "can't handle criticism".

If the reason they quit is because they truly couldn't handle critics, than I don't really care anymore. While I'd love to see the characters story continue, I'm not sure I'd want to see the dev as a person continue.

Yelling at a dev and calling them names is not "criticism".
It's being a fucking dickhead crowned with smegma.

Criticism is saying "I'm not a fan of that part of the content, I think it [reason]. In my opinion, maybe it would be better to [idea]".
That's criticism. That's constructive criticism.

There's a major difference there. That difference is having basic decency when talking to the dev who gives out their hard work for fucking free, instead of acting liek an entitled brat who has the God-given right to demand content be modified to catter to their will.

 

[chainedpanda]

Yelling at a dev and calling them names is not "criticism".
It's being a fucking dickhead crowned with smegma.

Criticism is saying "I'm not a fan of that part of the content, I think it [reason]. In my opinion, maybe it would be better to [idea]".
That's criticism. That's constructive criticism.

There's a major difference there. That difference is having basic decency when talking to the dev who gives out their hard work for fucking free, instead of acting liek an entitled brat who has the God-given right to demand content be modified to catter to their will.

The difference between constructive and nonconstructive criticism is how the developer interacts with it. By definition, constructive means "Serving to improve". Meaning that criticism can only become constructive the moment the developer uses that criticism to improve the overall product. Thus, it doesn't matter how criticism is articulated, it will never be constructive unless the developer actively does something to address it.

Furthermore, yelling and calling names is 100% constructive based on your definition. If 10 people call me an asshole, it means nothing to me. However, the moment 1 person explains why I'm an asshole, than I then realize why the previous 10 also called me an asshole. Meaning, by your definition, all 11 people gave me constructive criticism. It doesn't matter rather or not I stop being an asshole.

Using your definition, not everything can realistically be constructive criticism anyway. If I were to play a game which heavily features content I dislike, then there is no realistic way for me to articulate an idea on how to change it. The only realistic advice I could provide would be to remake the game without that content. However, doing so would just be outrageous, argueblly even worse than the people you are currently calling dickheads.

Finally, I'm not even going to bother to remark on your ridiculous "free" statement. If that's really what you believe, I think I generally feel sorry for you...