VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[Real Kreten]

an envious person would say that: "i'm happy for you, but i wanted that for me"


Maya is first of all weak , and this lead her to be insecure and envious

Maya is not weak, she is broken. Maya had a backbone in the past (the remnant we saw in the second episode) and with the help of MC and Josy she will have a backbone again in the future. But now she is broken.

 

[felicemastronzo]

Remeber too that many of her problems (particularly about his relation with Josy) came because of his father... If his father was as "cool" as Josy's one, her couple has very likely gone better from the beginning and Maya would'nt be in this situation...

her father would be a bigot, but anyway he went in her room to talk to her, he did not disnow her

their relationship is "ended" because Maya let it die. Once she lost her relationship with her father, losing it also with Josy was her choice. there is no point in arguing with his father about josy and then letting her go

 

[felicemastronzo]

Maya is not weak, she is broken. Maya had a backbone in the past (the remnant we saw in the second episode) and with the help of MC and Josy she will have a backbone again in the future. But now she is broken.

to be broken may be the reason, to be weak is the result

also MC could be broken, ma he is not weak

 

[Laurelin]

to be broken may be the reason, to be weak is the result

I'll try to argue (even if it's not easy for me, I'd prefer french language ! )
Maya's not weak for me. Remember she pledged the HOTs to have free tuition and so win her financial independence. But she has no Hots mentality, far from it ! She needs a lot of force in her to do that.

 

[Laurelin]

But I'm supposed to defend Josy (because she's my favorite, even if Maya is not so far behind !), so, for now, I defend Maya too.
Let's wait for her real defender, i.e. Holy Bacchus , wich has less problems with the language (he is British, with or whithout humour )

 

[Redcup121]

awesome it came faster then most

 

[felicemastronzo]

I'll try to argue (even if it's not easy for me, I'd prefer french language ! )
Maya's not weak for me. Remember she pledged the HOTs to have free tuition and so win her financial independence. But she has no Hots mentality, far from it ! She needs a lot of force in her to do that.

we could try with italian maybe....


tuition in a problem for a lot of student, expecially in usa, and they find a solution without becaming a ragdoll for Quinn. the free tuition is the easy way for the indipendence

 

[xsssssssss]

I very much see Maya as a weak person who latches onto to a stronger person whether that be Josy or the MC.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

That's literally envy. Not going to support your girlfriend when she's going to have a tough conversation with her father? Maybe she suffers anxiety too, but that's not an excuse either...

M&J don't seem to make that good of a couple to me, honestly.

I don't remember it properly then. If she left when it was clear he supported her then it sounds even more like envy (and/or anxiety).

an envious person would say that: "i'm happy for you, but i wanted that for me"

Maya is first of all weak , and this lead her to be insecure and envious

Going to address these at once, so here goes.

Maya does not seem to come across as envious of Josy. When she sees Josy and her Dad reconcile with each other it wounds Maya because of the strained relationship with her Dad. She has a longing for such a thing with her own Dad as I get the sense that she was probably quite close to him, like he was her rock throughout most of her life but then when he found out about her, that bond was shattered and she yearns to repair it because she probably views those times through rose-tinted glasses and sees them as mostly good. This longing for reconciliation with her Dad would only be envy if she resented Josy for what she has with her Dad, but she doesn't resent Josy as she says that she is happy for her.



With regards to her being "weak" because she relies on other people, some people are just like that where there is often a person or people in their life they view as being their "rock", the one(s)who keep them grounded, who are there for them in times of need, and who, generally, don't judge them too harshly and support them. To put such trust in another person is a sign of great strength, not weakness, because you're opening yourself up to them and trusting, hoping that they will accept you for you, taking that brave step to face possible rejection by putting yourself out there. People who don't put such trust in others, who try to be this lone wolf that doesn't need anyone, are more often the weak ones because they're scared to let others in and thus keep everybody at arms length which can lead to them being very lonely people.

Maya simply feels like the world is against her which is a sign that she views herself as the problem, as though being who she is is why so many things are, in her words, "unfair". She doesn't seem to have great sense of self-worth which could be another reason why she attaches herself to others as they give her a feeling of being worthy. Now that she's in college she'll hopefully gain more confidence as most people do, but there's nothing that's really wrong with her right now, she just needs to find herself and now she has the chance to do so, away from her controlling parents.

her father would be a bigot, but anyway he went in her room to talk to her, he did not disnow her

their relationship is "ended" because Maya let it die. Once she lost her relationship with her father, losing it also with Josy was her choice. there is no point in arguing with his father about josy and then letting her go

Her Dad issued her an "ultimatum" and is using this to withhold her tuition, and he is the one that was keeping Maya from seeing Josy for some time now. His visit to Maya's dorm was most likely to pressure her to accept this ultimatum and she either refused or didn't give an answer which is what made her more determined to join the HOTs for the "free tuition" so that she wouldn't have to accept or refuse his ultimatum.

So Maya was not the cause of her relationship with Josy breaking down, it was her Dad and he is still an obstacle in their way.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

The way I’d want this to work is that RP is what it is. Do shit people like, they like you. Do shit people don’t like... they don’t like you. It’s individual for all characters and decides if they like you.

Your DIK/CHICK score is never considered by any character or any decisions in game but what it instead does is add flavour to your speech (as it already does). This is now your personality not a mystical reputation. Spend all day looking up girls skirts and other actions the game considers “DIK” and it influences your characters mannerisms. Objectify women 24/7 and that option to “compliment” Maya comes off creepy and you lose RP. This way your Chick/DIK score is used to see if your personality matches the girls and organically draws them to you. Sage would like DIK MC, Sage would want a “bad boy” so would gain RP when this system makes the MC act like a DIK. Nobody is psychic here, they only gain/lose RP based on your personality influencing how you say things.

Finally the big DIK/CHICK choices define routes and are tangibly commented on. You know how Maya/Josy reject a DIK mc using psychic knowledge of his past deeds? It wouldn’t work that way. I’d want 2-3 major choices with clear public awareness of them happening between episode 1-4 and if you pick certain choices you lose DIK chick segments... but here’s the thing, the girls use these to define their routes and inform their opinion. Take Maya/Josy. A major DIK would be rejected but they would explain why by citing those major DIK choices. Those public actions would be tailored to be reasons for the girls to leave you and/or want to be with you.

This way, act like a dick and drive CHICK girls away? They’ve got ammunition to say why they’re rejecting you in the form of your major plot line choices rather than just saying no without any justification (leading to 1000 people jumping onto the forum to ask why they didn’t get the threesome route because it’s entirely arbitrary)

Nobody is psychic, MC has a tangible personality and the girls organically align to you via that. it’s not perfect and would require careful balancing so you can’t just neutral your way into everyone’s panties but it’s a damn sight better than the Arbitrary-o-tron 3000 we have now.

This does honestly sound a lot better, that the smaller actions amount to the different LIs perceiving the MC in a certain way and this influences their view of his personality. It feels like a better representation of real life too, as some people can like you and others don't like you because they have differing views on your personality based on their own way of perceiving your actions and your words.

 

[ename144]

her father would be a bigot, but anyway he went in her room to talk to her, he did not disnow her

their relationship is "ended" because Maya let it die. Once she lost her relationship with her father, losing it also with Josy was her choice. there is no point in arguing with his father about josy and then letting her go

It seems pretty clear that Maya's father threatened to disown her if she didn't behave 'properly.' She flat out tells us he gave her an ultimatum when we first meet her, Maya and Josy repeatedly state he can't know the two are living together, and we know he asked Derek to keep an eye on her.

You can see further evidence in Maya's graduation picture, where her dad is hugging Derek and smiling while Maya is on her own looking sad. Or even in Maya's "Not the daughter I wanted" rant at the MC in Episode 2. It seems pretty clear that Maya isn't the one who abandoned her father.

As for Maya being envious, maybe. She says she's happy for Josy, but she is clearly upset that she feels any negative emotions about it. We could call that envy, or we call it something more like melancholy. It really depends on just how much Maya resents Josy for getting a loving father, rather than how much Maya just wishes she didn't have to fight her own father.

I guess I don't see Maya's actions as all that bad. As was pointed out, by the time Maya walks off it's clear Josy will not need emotional support. So it's possible Maya left so as not to ruin Josy's mood, rather than because she couldn't stand watching Josy get to be happy. IMHO, I'm inclined to give Maya the benefit of the doubt because I think her fundamental point is valid: parents ARE supposed to be there for their children, and Maya's dad isn't.

I very much see Maya as a weak person who latches onto to a stronger person whether that be Josy or the MC.

I think it's easy to overstate just how weak Maya is relative to the MC. It was only last episode that the MC spent two days sulking around because his girlfriends were cheating on each other with him. Even with her tears, Maya seemed to handle that better than he did.

Frankly, all the LIs tend to rely on the MC for emotional support, and I doubt that trend will stop any time soon. Maya's been doing it a lot lately, but her problems are also more blatant than the others (at least until we learn Bella's backstory).

EDIT: In other words, more or less what Holy Bacchus said.

 

[Rinbael]

The way I’d want this to work is that RP is what it is. Do shit people like, they like you. Do shit people don’t like... they don’t like you. It’s individual for all characters and decides if they like you.

Your DIK/CHICK score is never considered by any character or any decisions in game but what it instead does is add flavour to your speech (as it already does). This is now your personality not a mystical reputation. Spend all day looking up girls skirts and other actions the game considers “DIK” and it influences your characters mannerisms. Objectify women 24/7 and that option to “compliment” Maya comes off creepy and you lose RP. This way your Chick/DIK score is used to see if your personality matches the girls and organically draws them to you. Sage would like DIK MC, Sage would want a “bad boy” so would gain RP when this system makes the MC act like a DIK. Nobody is psychic here, they only gain/lose RP based on your personality influencing how you say things.

Finally the big DIK/CHICK choices define routes and are tangibly commented on. You know how Maya/Josy reject a DIK mc using psychic knowledge of his past deeds? It wouldn’t work that way. I’d want 2-3 major choices with clear public awareness of them happening between episode 1-4 and if you pick certain choices you lose DIK chick segments... but here’s the thing, the girls use these to define their routes and inform their opinion. Take Maya/Josy. A major DIK would be rejected but they would explain why by citing those major DIK choices. Those public actions would be tailored to be reasons for the girls to leave you and/or want to be with you.

This way, act like a dick and drive CHICK girls away? They’ve got ammunition to say why they’re rejecting you in the form of your major plot line choices rather than just saying no without any justification (leading to 1000 people jumping onto the forum to ask why they didn’t get the threesome route because it’s entirely arbitrary)

Nobody is psychic, MC has a tangible personality and the girls organically align to you via that. it’s not perfect and would require careful balancing so you can’t just neutral your way into everyone’s panties but it’s a damn sight better than the Arbitrary-o-tron 3000 we have now.

I agree with you completely a good example of that kind of system working is city of broken dreamers. Especially with Victoria which without going of topic or spoiling anything has quite a few different scenes and interactions depending on the MCs interactions and choices regarding her and it even effects her dialog with other characters in the game. I think that is a more realistic way to handle the relationships in the game.

 

[ename144]

The way I’d want this to work is that RP is what it is. Do shit people like, they like you. Do shit people don’t like... they don’t like you. It’s individual for all characters and decides if they like you.

Your DIK/CHICK score is never considered by any character or any decisions in game but what it instead does is add flavour to your speech (as it already does). This is now your personality not a mystical reputation. Spend all day looking up girls skirts and other actions the game considers “DIK” and it influences your characters mannerisms. Objectify women 24/7 and that option to “compliment” Maya comes off creepy and you lose RP. This way your Chick/DIK score is used to see if your personality matches the girls and organically draws them to you. Sage would like DIK MC, Sage would want a “bad boy” so would gain RP when this system makes the MC act like a DIK. Nobody is psychic here, they only gain/lose RP based on your personality influencing how you say things.

Finally the big DIK/CHICK choices define routes and are tangibly commented on. You know how Maya/Josy reject a DIK mc using psychic knowledge of his past deeds? It wouldn’t work that way. I’d want 2-3 major choices with clear public awareness of them happening between episode 1-4 and if you pick certain choices you lose DIK chick segments... but here’s the thing, the girls use these to define their routes and inform their opinion. Take Maya/Josy. A major DIK would be rejected but they would explain why by citing those major DIK choices. Those public actions would be tailored to be reasons for the girls to leave you and/or want to be with you.

This way, act like a dick and drive CHICK girls away? They’ve got ammunition to say why they’re rejecting you in the form of your major plot line choices rather than just saying no without any justification (leading to 1000 people jumping onto the forum to ask why they didn’t get the threesome route because it’s entirely arbitrary)

Nobody is psychic, MC has a tangible personality and the girls organically align to you via that. it’s not perfect and would require careful balancing so you can’t just neutral your way into everyone’s panties but it’s a damn sight better than the Arbitrary-o-tron 3000 we have now.

I agree that would have been a better model for the system, but it sounds like DPC felt that was too "gameable," so he created the more convoluted system we ended up with.

To try to be fair to the existing system, I think it does a decent job *IF* you are willing to pretend the Major Choices (and only the Major Choices) are the crucial moments that combine to define the MC's mindset for the rest of his life. If you make that assumption, a lot of the problems in the system fall away.

In that case it's not that Maya and Josy are psychic, it's that the MC has become the sort of person who prefers to beat up jocks, party with strippers, or refuse to let old grudges go; M&J can pick up on that because those decisions are at the core of who the MC is, so his attitude is reflected in his actions in countless small ways.

Of course the reason the status/affinity system fails is that a) there is no clear rationale for why those particular choices are the ones that make the MC who he is, and b) the game rarely shows any of the small ways in which his actions mirror his attitude - or sometimes shows the opposite.

So yeah, we got a more complex system that all too often falls flat. Unfortunately, the die is cast at this point.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

I agree that would have been a better model for the system, but it sounds like DPC felt that was too "gameable," so he created the more convoluted system we ended up with.

To try to be fair to the existing system, I think it does a decent job *IF* you are willing to pretend the Major Choices (and only the Major Choices) are the crucial moments that combine to define the MC's mindset for the rest of his life. If you make that assumption, a lot of the problems in the system fall away.

In that case it's not that Maya and Josy are psychic, it's that the MC has become the sort of person who prefers to beat up jocks, party with strippers, or refuse to let old grudges go; M&J can pick up on that because those decisions are at the core of who the MC is, so his attitude is reflected in his actions in countless small ways.

Of course the reason the status/affinity system fails is that a) there is no clear rationale for why those particular choices are the ones that make the MC who he is, and b) the game rarely shows any of the small ways in which his actions mirror his attitude - or sometimes shows the opposite.

So yeah, we got a more complex system that all too often falls flat. Unfortunately, the die is cast at this point.

The only major hurdle to your theory "IF" is that I can have the MC do the exact opposite of the Major choices and it affects nothing other than status. The "crucial moments" you mention could be anything and most of the time they are insignificant to the whole story. Help Steve - what in the flying fluck does Steve have to do with the story? Take it further with Jade? Why is Jade such a huge impact? By this time half of the people I've already (potentially) screwed around with are in a committed relationship. Bella is also a teacher. So again why is Jade so special that she is a defining moment in your life but Maya, Josy, Bella, and Sage are insignificant? The system is so flawed that I cant even use your "if" theory because it fails the logic test. There is nothing special about any of the Major Choices that are different than any other minor choice. SSDD

Example - Not help Steve. Which means I won't help someone in need. However I can then go through and help half the people in the game including the two people that reject you and it impacts - NOTHING!

The Major Choices are literally a one and done and they have a HUGE impact (potentially) on other people. Yet you have the same choices on the minor side that don't affect a single thing other than a temporary fluctuating status/mood.

 

[rendersen25]

Is it just me or does Tommy look like the MC, just older and angrier?

 

[ename144]

The only major hurdle to your theory "IF" is that I can have the MC do the exact opposite of the Major choices and it affects nothing other than status. The "crucial moments" you mention could be anything and most of the time they are insignificant to the whole story. Help Steve - what in the flying fluck does Steve have to do with the story? Take it further with Jade? Why is Jade such a huge impact? By this time half of the people I've already (potentially) screwed around with are in a committed relationship. Bella is also a teacher. So again why is Jade so special that she is a defining moment in your life but Maya, Josy, Bella, and Sage are insignificant? The system is so flawed that I cant even use your "if" theory because it fails the logic test. There is nothing special about any of the Major Choices that are different than any other minor choice. SSDD

Example - Not help Steve. Which means I won't help someone in need. However I can then go through and help half the people in the game including the two people that reject you and it impacts - NOTHING!

The Major Choices are literally a one and done and they have a HUGE impact (potentially) on other people. Yet you have the same choices on the minor side that don't affect a single thing other than a temporary fluctuating status/mood.

You're preaching to the choir. As I said, you need to pretend ONLY the Major Choices are the significant ones. Other choices that seem similar are, for whatever reason you prefer to cling to, just minor events that don't mean much.

If you can suspend your disbelief and embrace it as a purely abstract game mechanic, it works okay. I'm not saying we should do this, of course; there's nothing wrong with wanting a more simulationist approach. I'm just saying I can see why some people find the system more palatable than you or I do.

 

[Tserriednich'sNen]

It seems pretty clear that Maya's father threatened to disown her if she didn't behave 'properly.' She flat out tells us he gave her an ultimatum when we first meet her, Maya and Josy repeatedly state he can't know the two are living together, and we know he asked Derek to keep an eye on her.

You can see further evidence in Maya's graduation picture, where her dad is hugging Derek and smiling while Maya is on her own looking sad. Or even in Maya's "Not the daughter I wanted" rant at the MC in Episode 2. It seems pretty clear that Maya isn't the one who abandoned her father.

As for Maya being envious, maybe. She says she's happy for Josy, but she is clearly upset that she feels any negative emotions about it. We could call that envy, or we call it something more like melancholy. It really depends on just how much Maya resents Josy for getting a loving father, rather than how much Maya just wishes she didn't have to fight her own father.

I guess I don't see Maya's actions as all that bad. As was pointed out, by the time Maya walks off it's clear Josy will not need emotional support. So it's possible Maya left so as not to ruin Josy's mood, rather than because she couldn't stand watching Josy get to be happy. IMHO, I'm inclined to give Maya the benefit of the doubt because I think her fundamental point is valid: parents ARE supposed to be there for their children, and Maya's dad isn't.


I think it's easy to overstate just how weak Maya is relative to the MC. It was only last episode that the MC spent two days sulking around because his girlfriends were cheating on each other with him. Even with her tears, Maya seemed to handle that better than he did.

Frankly, all the LIs tend to rely on the MC for emotional support, and I doubt that trend will stop any time soon. Maya's been doing it a lot lately, but her problems are also more blatant than the others (at least until we learn Bella's backstory).

EDIT: In other words, more or less what Holy Bacchus said.

I'd say so far Jill is the only LI who doesn't rely on MC for emotional support. If anything thing she's been an anchor of support for him not vice versa. That speaks a lot about how strong she is as a person.

 

[Rinbael]

I'd say so far Jill is the only LI who doesn't rely on MC for emotional support. If anything thing she's been an anchor of support for him not vice versa. That speaks a lot about how strong she is as a person.

I agree that Jill does seem very strong as a person but I think alot of that is because she doesn't seem to have any kind of drama or baggage compared to the other LIs but I would be surprrised if that doesn't change further into the story.

 

[Ugimonaa]

I agree that Jill does seem very strong as a person but I think alot of that is because she doesn't seem to have any kind of drama or baggage compared to the other LIs but I would be surprrised if that doesn't change further into the story.

Who knows, anything can happen, like Acting Lessons *coff coff*

 

[felicemastronzo]

Going to address these at once, so here goes.

Maya does not seem to come across as envious of Josy. When she sees Josy and her Dad reconcile with each other it wounds Maya because of the strained relationship with her Dad. She has a longing for such a thing with her own Dad as I get the sense that she was probably quite close to him, like he was her rock throughout most of her life but then when he found out about her, that bond was shattered and she yearns to repair it because she probably views those times through rose-tinted glasses and sees them as mostly good. This longing for reconciliation with her Dad would only be envy if she resented Josy for what she has with her Dad, but she doesn't resent Josy as she says that she is happy for her.

View attachment 699390 View attachment 699391

With regards to her being "weak" because she relies on other people, some people are just like that where there is often a person or people in their life they view as being their "rock", the one(s)who keep them grounded, who are there for them in times of need, and who, generally, don't judge them too harshly and support them. To put such trust in another person is a sign of great strength, not weakness, because you're opening yourself up to them and trusting, hoping that they will accept you for you, taking that brave step to face possible rejection by putting yourself out there. People who don't put such trust in others, who try to be this lone wolf that doesn't need anyone, are more often the weak ones because they're scared to let others in and thus keep everybody at arms length which can lead to them being very lonely people.

Maya simply feels like the world is against her which is a sign that she views herself as the problem, as though being who she is is why so many things are, in her words, "unfair". She doesn't seem to have great sense of self-worth which could be another reason why she attaches herself to others as they give her a feeling of being worthy. Now that she's in college she'll hopefully gain more confidence as most people do, but there's nothing that's really wrong with her right now, she just needs to find herself and now she has the chance to do so, away from her controlling parents.



Her Dad issued her an "ultimatum" and is using this to withhold her tuition, and he is the one that was keeping Maya from seeing Josy for some time now. His visit to Maya's dorm was most likely to pressure her to accept this ultimatum and she either refused or didn't give an answer which is what made her more determined to join the HOTs for the "free tuition" so that she wouldn't have to accept or refuse his ultimatum.

So Maya was not the cause of her relationship with Josy breaking down, it was her Dad and he is still an obstacle in their way.

I want to make some premises before continuing the discussion:

1) i don't hate Maya, when I see a weak person (or character...) I hope he finds the courage to raise his head. accroding to me she is not evil, she has not bad intentions, but I consider her severely limited by her weakness. maybe I was wrong to use the term envy, but i don't like her reaction in front of the happiness of her loved one
2) Maya's father is wrong and I hope he finds out in time. someone will have to face him, i hope Maya herself, but more likely MC
3) i believe that it honors the quality of the game all these discussions about the characters and their behaviors

going back to the subject:
I disagree about your reconstruction. Let's admit that the father completely controlled Maya's life while she was under her terroir, i don't think is full credible, but go on

if the problem in Maya-Josy relationship was only Maya's father, she should have called Josy at her first day at BR, to tell her how she was waiting for her. instead she remains hidden, MC is waiting for Josy every time, Maya?


her Dad (who has a wrong position) keep pushing because he didn't give up on his daughter, the opposite would be worse. in the same way Josy didn't give up on their relationship

if you never make a decision, in the end you live the decisions of others