VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[DuckDairyDip]

So the game will end until the MC graduated from college ?

Likely not unless there is a timeskip likely at the very end or epilogue.

 

[felicemastronzo]

Why would a academic year go only about 6 month ?
IIRC DPC is from sweden right? I have assumed he has taken their academic year as model, which is similiar to ours, meaning seperated in a first half, from end of august until christmas and the second half, from new year to june.

At least in my opinion that would a pretty shitty ending, for all who choose a chick run, for a dik run that would actually fitting thought.



Why postcards?
U could show MC+LI with timeskips in between, that is a good solution if done right.

the first 5 chapters cover a couple of weeks, and the story is too much alive to afford any time jumps. of course it may be that there are more ahead, but for now I have no reason to believe it.

when I talked about postcards from the future I was referring to the classic epilogue with images of the protagonists grown up, with children etc ... for a story of university love in my opinion it is not the best

 

[barbatoscloud]

Likely not unless there is a timeskip likely at the very end or epilogue.

but 16 -20 eps I think enough without time skip. Besides, I want to see MC and Derek become predisent of DIK

 

[felicemastronzo]

That resolution was a no-win scenario for DPC - though it's entirely one of his own making.

He wanted the player to sympathize with the hurt and shock of the MC, so he had Maya and Josy do something shocking and potentially painful. He then amped up the drama by having the PC mope about it for the whole episode.

It certainly helped sell the MC's trauma, but by the same token it also prevented Maya and Josy from mending fences with the player, not just the MC. Combine that with the ludicrously rushed resolution that focused far too much on them forgiving each other than earning the player's forgiveness and it's no wonder that lots of players just want to write the whole mess off once and for all - no matter how badly that would fuck up DPC's story.

On top of that, Episode 5 was poorly positioned to fix the problem since it was so short. In the wake of the library debacle, we needed three things: a) a chance for players who hated the characters to berate them (even if it ended with them being friends again, the dressing down could be cathartic); b) re-establishing a camaraderie between the three that would illustrate why the MC wants to stay their friend (and thus why we should care); c) explaining what the new relationship between the three would be for those who succeeded in trying for something more.

Unfortunately, those needs were derailed by the inability for Episode 5 to actually advance the plot in any way. It practically trapped the various plots and relationships in amber for safekeeping. As a result the closest we got to a) was ducking out on Josy's request, and c) was a borderline joke with Maya all but asking the MC to keep sleeping around.

Worst of all was b). Not only did the episode completely bail on rebuilding any sort of platonic friendship between the three, the friendship route chose to focus exclusively on how sad the girls were to be only friends and not lovers - even when the girls turned us down! It's true that in the wake of the library scene we probably did need to be reassured there was still a solo path for each girl, but that could have waited an episode.

By cramming that message in to the exclusion of all others, it not only failed to reestablish the friendship between the trio, it wound up making the threesome path look that much weaker in comparison.

It's nowhere near as bad as the original failure in Episode 4, but it's means we have to readdress the issue yet again, which will only overexpose the characters to those who are sick of them even more. It's one more pothole Episode 6 is going to have to patch. No wonder the thing is going to be huge.

I agree with what you wrote, but I think the solution was actually much simpler.

the scene in the DIKs library lacks balance because the whole drama is MC's charge, his speech only solves the problem between the girls, in that moment it would have been necessary for the girls to show how much they cared about MC, to apologize to him for the lies and omissions that had been there up to that moment, that it was a dramatic moment for them as well towards MC, instead it is not so (the only "dramatic" reaction they have if they refuse his proposal ...)

everyone forgives each other, but in the end they are a couple and MC is alone, there is no balance.

this would not have resolved the "hatred" of the players towards Maya and Josy, but at least it would have made sense that Mc remained friends

 

[DuckDairyDip]

but 16 -20 eps I think enough without time skip. Besides, I want to see MC and Derek become predisent of DIK

Considering season 1 was only a few weeks, there would need to be some sort of time skip or time jump in order to fill 2 or 3 more seasons to cover four whole school years even with longer episodes.

 

[DavDR]

in that moment it would have been necessary for the girls to show how much they cared about MC

Yes, but do they? I take your point about the scene, but I have to ask. Does Maya or Josey really care for the MC?

 

[felicemastronzo]

Yes, but do they? I take your point about the scene, but I have to ask. Does Maya or Josey really care for the MC?

Josy and Maya are LIs, so they care about MC

the problem is that they show they care about MC until a moment before that scene, as both can't wait to be able to explain each other and obviously want to be forgiven, but then they do nothing.

once they arrive in the library, however, they appear very selfish, once Mc has solved their couple problems they are okay, it must be MC who insists on being considered, for them it would have already passed.

in front of these situations I never choose to blame whoever wrote the scene, it may be that DPC wrote it badly, but as a player I don't care, I judge the characters for what they do

in fact on the episode there were two "retcons", the embrace between the two girls that disappears while a rejected MC leaves, and the speech at the picnic (or after the visit of Josy's father), where they confess that the reason for their behavior was the fear of being alone, which in fact are apologies to MC, belated but better than nothing

 

[DavDR]

Josy and Maya are LIs, so they care about MC

the problem is that they show they care about MC until a moment before that scene, as both can't wait to be able to explain each other and obviously want to be forgiven, but then they do nothing.

once they arrive in the library, however, they appear very selfish, once Mc has solved their couple problems they are okay, it must be MC who insists on being considered, for them it would have already passed.

in front of these situations I never choose to blame whoever wrote the scene, it may be that DPC wrote it badly, but as a player I don't care, I judge the characters for what they do

in fact on the episode there were two "retcons", the embrace between the two girls that disappears while a rejected MC leaves, and the speech at the picnic (or after the visit of Josy's father), where they confess that the reason for their behavior was the fear of being alone, which in fact are apologies to MC, belated but better than nothing

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

 

[felicemastronzo]

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

MC obviously yes ...

if you ask me in a college full of girls interested in me i would never waste time with two girls in their situation, and with Maya who hasn't decided yet if she really cares about men.
and the way I am temperamentally I would never really trust them again

about your question about the two girls: at one point they preferred MC to the other, and if MC hadn't been "the other" of both, Josy and Maya would never have gotten back together, and MC would have had a lot of chances to stay the boyfriend in charge

 

[SPACE_BOOOOOST]

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

Not at current time but I'm fairly certain both the "threeway" and the friendship routes will arrive at a crossroads where Josy and/or Maya realize that they can't just go back to dating each other as if nothing happened (if for no other reason then just so DPC doesn't have to maintain entirely different paths for them) and depending on the MC's choice one of them ends up with him. Whether or not it'll feel like a rebound, a case where the MC only wins by process of elimination remains to be seen, but both of them have confessed their longing for him even on the friendship route in EP5 so it's not a stretch that whoever the MC decides to focus on more going forward has a change of heart eventually.

 

[DavDR]

MC obviously yes ...

if you ask me in a college full of girls interested in me i would never waste time with two girls in their situation, and with Maya who hasn't decided yet if she really cares about men.
and the way I am temperamentally I would never really trust them again

about your question about the two girls: at one point they preferred MC to the other, and if MC hadn't been "the other" of both, Josy and Maya would never have gotten back together, and MC would have had a lot of chances to stay the boyfriend in charge

They only preferred the MC to the other because the other wasn't there. Both of them led the MC along to believe that there could be something but as soon as they were together the MC was alone.

 

[felicemastronzo]

They only preferred the MC to the other because the other wasn't there. Both of them led the MC along to believe that there could be something but as soon as they were together the MC was alone.

not exactly.

MC has a burst of anger and goes away (I understand him and I don't blame him), if he had stayed there the evening of Josy's arrival maybe things would have been different, so he too leaves the field to couple of girls.

then on the scene in the DIKs library I agree with you. the two who are more literally traitors (they are the only ones who were united in a real relationship) forgive each other on the fly and declare eternal love, MC has to ask if he can stay on board

 

[DavDR]

not exactly.

MC has a burst of anger and goes away (I understand him and I don't blame him), if he had stayed there the evening of Josy's arrival maybe things would have been different, so he too leaves the field to couple of girls.

then on the scene in the DIKs library I agree with you. the two who are more literally traitors (they are the only ones who were united in a real relationship) forgive each other on the fly and declare eternal love, MC has to ask if he can stay on board

Yes, I admit there are a lot of inconsistencies in the story. For my part I can't believe that either of them wouldn't take a 30 minute train ride to see the other when they were apart. The thing in the story that shocks me the most is that when they talk things out, neither of them admits to what happened with the MC, actually I think they don't discuss him at all. And that's the most telling thing about the way they feel.

 

[Maviarab]

Yes, I admit there are a lot of inconsistencies in the story. For my part I can't believe that either of them wouldn't take a 30 minute train ride to see the other when they were apart. The thing in the story that shocks me the most is that when they talk things out, neither of them admits to what happened with the MC, actually I think they don't discuss him at all. And that's the most telling thing about the way they feel.

One has to assume they discuss 'us' in great detail off camera, otherwise this would be even longer than it alreadys is. Sometimes you just have to assume things...like people in films who never eat or go to the toilet.

Does everything really need spelling out to you in detail and handed on a silver platter? (and yes, part of the problem here that very few will admit is DPC's very inconsistant writing).

 

[Real Kreten]

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

Simple answer: Yes.

Proof:

• Josy came to B&R, where both MC and Maya are.
• Josy is facing a decision between MC or Maya.
• Josy call to MC, if she can sleep over at his dorm.
• Josy chose MC.

 

[felicemastronzo]

One has to assume they discuss 'us' in great detail off camera, otherwise this would be even longer than it alreadys is. Sometimes you just have to assume things...like people in films who never eat or go to the toilet.

Does everything really need spelling out to you in detail and handed on a silver platter?

I wouldn't compare a part of the quintessential dramatic moment of the first season to a pee break...

I prefer to believe that it didn't happen and not that it was hidden from me

 

[felicemastronzo]

Well to be fair...we don't really see them discuss anything do we short of a very quick conversation sat on their bed? So do we assume they didn't talk about anything? Their fathers...money..the MC...why no contact....time of day...price of fish? Sorry but one has to assume in the natural event cycle of things that they had a lot to discuss and catch up on...therefore the MC would inevitably be brought up (when we left...they probably spoke all night while we crashed wherever). That we do not see it is irevelent...again...it would make the VN twice as long if we were privy to every single conversation characters have.

sorry I was talking about the meeting in the library

after Josy arrival, Maya and Josy may have talked abput anything each other, even though they obviously haven't talked about MC given the surprise at the "all traitors" moment.

 

[Maviarab]

sorry I was talking about the meeting in the library

after Josy arrival, Maya and Josy may have talked abput anything each other, even though they obviously haven't talked about MC given the surprise at the "all traitors" moment.

Right gotya. Well...that whole scene is quick-skimmed far too much for my liking...too little in too short a time frame for me...but I'm not allowed to critisize DPC so must be my/our problem that the scene all round just doesn't fit, is too short and makes very little sense. That whole library scene needed to be much longer really and go into far more depth/detail imo.

 

[ename144]

Yes, I admit there are a lot of inconsistencies in the story. For my part I can't believe that either of them wouldn't take a 30 minute train ride to see the other when they were apart. The thing in the story that shocks me the most is that when they talk things out, neither of them admits to what happened with the MC, actually I think they don't discuss him at all. And that's the most telling thing about the way they feel.

They don't discuss the MC, but I'm not sure why you take that as an indication that they care more about each other than him. To me it indicates the opposite: they're more concerned about losing their last shot at the MC than they are about repairing a healthy relationship with each other. Between their reluctance to address their poor communication on their own and their almost pathetic inability to move on from the MC EVEN AFTER THEY REJECT HIM, it's hard to see the MC as a second banana here.

IMHO what we needed in Episode 4 was for the MC to spend less time sulking about avoiding the girls and more time talking to each of them one-on-one. That would lessen the 'sting' of the Episode 3 cliffhanger, but it would also keep the drama at manageable levels and give us the much needed chance to finally explore the hidden bits of Maya and Josy's backstory.

That would in turn give them time to earn some forgiveness from the player or, failing that, at least establish clearly why the MC is willing to forgive them and move on in some fashion; the exact fashion being determined by the choices made with each girl throughout the episode. In this scenario it would provide far more meaning to the 'Stay friends/try for something more' decision at the end because we would not only be more invested in the friendship, we'd also have a much clearer understanding of what each choice meant.

The problem with my scenario, I suspect, is that a) it would probably double the size of the episode, and b) it would make it much harder for those who choose M&J to continue participating in the rest of the game (since they've clearly already made their choice).

You could solve that by splitting the episode up and postponing the decision to try for something more (a popular example would be to have all three agree to start over as friends and see where it leads), giving DPC time for the other LI relationships to catch up. But that in turn has the problem that it feels like a cop-out after ending Episode 3 on that cliffhanger. It would also make for a much more ambiguous end to the first season (and thus run the risk of annoying Steam players who must wait a long time for the next update).

Really, the root of the problem is that DPC has a sweet tooth for drama and tried to crank it up too early in the story. If he expected this to go for 12+ episodes, he shouldn't have planned the major revelation about 40% of his LIs for Epsiode 4. He was right that the secret of Maya and Josy needed to be revealed soon, but he was unwilling to settle for the ordinary helping of drama that would have provided.

So he went all in on the sense of shock and betrayal to maximize the feels, only to belatedly realize he had no way to properly dissipate the emotions he caused. He'd painted himself into a corner. He eventually decided to just sprint over the paint as fast as possible and hope no one noticed.

Well, we did. But it's water under the bridge now. If Episode 6 finally goes back to finish up the corner (and maybe sand down the worst of the footprints while it's at it), at least we might finally be able to move on.

 

[felicemastronzo]

They don't discuss the MC, but I'm not sure why you take that as an indication that they care more about each other than him. To me it indicates the opposite: they're more concerned about losing their last shot at the MC than they are about repairing a healthy relationship with each other. Between their reluctance to address their poor communication on their own and their almost pathetic inability to move on from the MC EVEN AFTER THEY REJECT HIM, it's hard to see the MC as a second banana here.

I already talked about this a few days ago and I agree with you that Maya and Josy as a couple, without Mc, do not exist.
probably even the girls are aware of it, but to really show it would have needed some more heartfelt and painful excuses, it would have served to show how much they cared about his friendship.

instead on your hypothesis of how the fourth chapter should have been I also agree, but it would have been a too "normal" story that DPC was not interested in writing.

I also remain convinced that the "perfect" story in DPC's head foresees that Mc's offer will be accepted.
the "friends only" option is only needed because afterwards there is the scavenger hunt and perhaps the solo routes. this regardless of what outcome the mini harem will have