VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[felicemastronzo]

Yes, but do they? I take your point about the scene, but I have to ask. Does Maya or Josey really care for the MC?

Josy and Maya are LIs, so they care about MC

the problem is that they show they care about MC until a moment before that scene, as both can't wait to be able to explain each other and obviously want to be forgiven, but then they do nothing.

once they arrive in the library, however, they appear very selfish, once Mc has solved their couple problems they are okay, it must be MC who insists on being considered, for them it would have already passed.

in front of these situations I never choose to blame whoever wrote the scene, it may be that DPC wrote it badly, but as a player I don't care, I judge the characters for what they do

in fact on the episode there were two "retcons", the embrace between the two girls that disappears while a rejected MC leaves, and the speech at the picnic (or after the visit of Josy's father), where they confess that the reason for their behavior was the fear of being alone, which in fact are apologies to MC, belated but better than nothing

 

[DavDR]

Josy and Maya are LIs, so they care about MC

the problem is that they show they care about MC until a moment before that scene, as both can't wait to be able to explain each other and obviously want to be forgiven, but then they do nothing.

once they arrive in the library, however, they appear very selfish, once Mc has solved their couple problems they are okay, it must be MC who insists on being considered, for them it would have already passed.

in front of these situations I never choose to blame whoever wrote the scene, it may be that DPC wrote it badly, but as a player I don't care, I judge the characters for what they do

in fact on the episode there were two "retcons", the embrace between the two girls that disappears while a rejected MC leaves, and the speech at the picnic (or after the visit of Josy's father), where they confess that the reason for their behavior was the fear of being alone, which in fact are apologies to MC, belated but better than nothing

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

 

[felicemastronzo]

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

MC obviously yes ...

if you ask me in a college full of girls interested in me i would never waste time with two girls in their situation, and with Maya who hasn't decided yet if she really cares about men.
and the way I am temperamentally I would never really trust them again

about your question about the two girls: at one point they preferred MC to the other, and if MC hadn't been "the other" of both, Josy and Maya would never have gotten back together, and MC would have had a lot of chances to stay the boyfriend in charge

 

[SPACE_BOOOOOST]

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

Not at current time but I'm fairly certain both the "threeway" and the friendship routes will arrive at a crossroads where Josy and/or Maya realize that they can't just go back to dating each other as if nothing happened (if for no other reason then just so DPC doesn't have to maintain entirely different paths for them) and depending on the MC's choice one of them ends up with him. Whether or not it'll feel like a rebound, a case where the MC only wins by process of elimination remains to be seen, but both of them have confessed their longing for him even on the friendship route in EP5 so it's not a stretch that whoever the MC decides to focus on more going forward has a change of heart eventually.

 

[DavDR]

MC obviously yes ...

if you ask me in a college full of girls interested in me i would never waste time with two girls in their situation, and with Maya who hasn't decided yet if she really cares about men.
and the way I am temperamentally I would never really trust them again

about your question about the two girls: at one point they preferred MC to the other, and if MC hadn't been "the other" of both, Josy and Maya would never have gotten back together, and MC would have had a lot of chances to stay the boyfriend in charge

They only preferred the MC to the other because the other wasn't there. Both of them led the MC along to believe that there could be something but as soon as they were together the MC was alone.

 

[felicemastronzo]

They only preferred the MC to the other because the other wasn't there. Both of them led the MC along to believe that there could be something but as soon as they were together the MC was alone.

not exactly.

MC has a burst of anger and goes away (I understand him and I don't blame him), if he had stayed there the evening of Josy's arrival maybe things would have been different, so he too leaves the field to couple of girls.

then on the scene in the DIKs library I agree with you. the two who are more literally traitors (they are the only ones who were united in a real relationship) forgive each other on the fly and declare eternal love, MC has to ask if he can stay on board

 

[DavDR]

not exactly.

MC has a burst of anger and goes away (I understand him and I don't blame him), if he had stayed there the evening of Josy's arrival maybe things would have been different, so he too leaves the field to couple of girls.

then on the scene in the DIKs library I agree with you. the two who are more literally traitors (they are the only ones who were united in a real relationship) forgive each other on the fly and declare eternal love, MC has to ask if he can stay on board

Yes, I admit there are a lot of inconsistencies in the story. For my part I can't believe that either of them wouldn't take a 30 minute train ride to see the other when they were apart. The thing in the story that shocks me the most is that when they talk things out, neither of them admits to what happened with the MC, actually I think they don't discuss him at all. And that's the most telling thing about the way they feel.

 

[Maviarab]

Yes, I admit there are a lot of inconsistencies in the story. For my part I can't believe that either of them wouldn't take a 30 minute train ride to see the other when they were apart. The thing in the story that shocks me the most is that when they talk things out, neither of them admits to what happened with the MC, actually I think they don't discuss him at all. And that's the most telling thing about the way they feel.

One has to assume they discuss 'us' in great detail off camera, otherwise this would be even longer than it alreadys is. Sometimes you just have to assume things...like people in films who never eat or go to the toilet.

Does everything really need spelling out to you in detail and handed on a silver platter? (and yes, part of the problem here that very few will admit is DPC's very inconsistant writing).

 

[Real Kreten]

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

Simple answer: Yes.

Proof:

• Josy came to B&R, where both MC and Maya are.
• Josy is facing a decision between MC or Maya.
• Josy call to MC, if she can sleep over at his dorm.
• Josy chose MC.

 

[felicemastronzo]

One has to assume they discuss 'us' in great detail off camera, otherwise this would be even longer than it alreadys is. Sometimes you just have to assume things...like people in films who never eat or go to the toilet.

Does everything really need spelling out to you in detail and handed on a silver platter?

I wouldn't compare a part of the quintessential dramatic moment of the first season to a pee break...

I prefer to believe that it didn't happen and not that it was hidden from me

 

[felicemastronzo]

Well to be fair...we don't really see them discuss anything do we short of a very quick conversation sat on their bed? So do we assume they didn't talk about anything? Their fathers...money..the MC...why no contact....time of day...price of fish? Sorry but one has to assume in the natural event cycle of things that they had a lot to discuss and catch up on...therefore the MC would inevitably be brought up (when we left...they probably spoke all night while we crashed wherever). That we do not see it is irevelent...again...it would make the VN twice as long if we were privy to every single conversation characters have.

sorry I was talking about the meeting in the library

after Josy arrival, Maya and Josy may have talked abput anything each other, even though they obviously haven't talked about MC given the surprise at the "all traitors" moment.

 

[Maviarab]

sorry I was talking about the meeting in the library

after Josy arrival, Maya and Josy may have talked abput anything each other, even though they obviously haven't talked about MC given the surprise at the "all traitors" moment.

Right gotya. Well...that whole scene is quick-skimmed far too much for my liking...too little in too short a time frame for me...but I'm not allowed to critisize DPC so must be my/our problem that the scene all round just doesn't fit, is too short and makes very little sense. That whole library scene needed to be much longer really and go into far more depth/detail imo.

 

[ename144]

Yes, I admit there are a lot of inconsistencies in the story. For my part I can't believe that either of them wouldn't take a 30 minute train ride to see the other when they were apart. The thing in the story that shocks me the most is that when they talk things out, neither of them admits to what happened with the MC, actually I think they don't discuss him at all. And that's the most telling thing about the way they feel.

They don't discuss the MC, but I'm not sure why you take that as an indication that they care more about each other than him. To me it indicates the opposite: they're more concerned about losing their last shot at the MC than they are about repairing a healthy relationship with each other. Between their reluctance to address their poor communication on their own and their almost pathetic inability to move on from the MC EVEN AFTER THEY REJECT HIM, it's hard to see the MC as a second banana here.

IMHO what we needed in Episode 4 was for the MC to spend less time sulking about avoiding the girls and more time talking to each of them one-on-one. That would lessen the 'sting' of the Episode 3 cliffhanger, but it would also keep the drama at manageable levels and give us the much needed chance to finally explore the hidden bits of Maya and Josy's backstory.

That would in turn give them time to earn some forgiveness from the player or, failing that, at least establish clearly why the MC is willing to forgive them and move on in some fashion; the exact fashion being determined by the choices made with each girl throughout the episode. In this scenario it would provide far more meaning to the 'Stay friends/try for something more' decision at the end because we would not only be more invested in the friendship, we'd also have a much clearer understanding of what each choice meant.

The problem with my scenario, I suspect, is that a) it would probably double the size of the episode, and b) it would make it much harder for those who choose M&J to continue participating in the rest of the game (since they've clearly already made their choice).

You could solve that by splitting the episode up and postponing the decision to try for something more (a popular example would be to have all three agree to start over as friends and see where it leads), giving DPC time for the other LI relationships to catch up. But that in turn has the problem that it feels like a cop-out after ending Episode 3 on that cliffhanger. It would also make for a much more ambiguous end to the first season (and thus run the risk of annoying Steam players who must wait a long time for the next update).

Really, the root of the problem is that DPC has a sweet tooth for drama and tried to crank it up too early in the story. If he expected this to go for 12+ episodes, he shouldn't have planned the major revelation about 40% of his LIs for Epsiode 4. He was right that the secret of Maya and Josy needed to be revealed soon, but he was unwilling to settle for the ordinary helping of drama that would have provided.

So he went all in on the sense of shock and betrayal to maximize the feels, only to belatedly realize he had no way to properly dissipate the emotions he caused. He'd painted himself into a corner. He eventually decided to just sprint over the paint as fast as possible and hope no one noticed.

Well, we did. But it's water under the bridge now. If Episode 6 finally goes back to finish up the corner (and maybe sand down the worst of the footprints while it's at it), at least we might finally be able to move on.

 

[felicemastronzo]

They don't discuss the MC, but I'm not sure why you take that as an indication that they care more about each other than him. To me it indicates the opposite: they're more concerned about losing their last shot at the MC than they are about repairing a healthy relationship with each other. Between their reluctance to address their poor communication on their own and their almost pathetic inability to move on from the MC EVEN AFTER THEY REJECT HIM, it's hard to see the MC as a second banana here.

I already talked about this a few days ago and I agree with you that Maya and Josy as a couple, without Mc, do not exist.
probably even the girls are aware of it, but to really show it would have needed some more heartfelt and painful excuses, it would have served to show how much they cared about his friendship.

instead on your hypothesis of how the fourth chapter should have been I also agree, but it would have been a too "normal" story that DPC was not interested in writing.

I also remain convinced that the "perfect" story in DPC's head foresees that Mc's offer will be accepted.
the "friends only" option is only needed because afterwards there is the scavenger hunt and perhaps the solo routes. this regardless of what outcome the mini harem will have

 

[Kellermann]

I'm glad I never really got into M&J. I like them much more as friends with an occasional netflix and chill. Since I wasn't that emotionally invested in either one, I forgave them almost immediately (even though MC did not), and I eagerly chose the option to stay friends. I can only imagine the bickering I'd have to listen to in a throuple with them. The two of them fighting over clothes, who gets the bathroom first, who left the curling iron on. Yikes, no thank you.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

I agree with what you wrote, but I think the solution was actually much simpler.

the scene in the DIKs library lacks balance because the whole drama is MC's charge, his speech only solves the problem between the girls, in that moment it would have been necessary for the girls to show how much they cared about MC, to apologize to him for the lies and omissions that had been there up to that moment, that it was a dramatic moment for them as well towards MC, instead it is not so (the only "dramatic" reaction they have if they refuse his proposal ...)

everyone forgives each other, but in the end they are a couple and MC is alone, there is no balance.

this would not have resolved the "hatred" of the players towards Maya and Josy, but at least it would have made sense that Mc remained friends

I agree that a proper apology to the MC was necessary, but not that only the MC should end up alone if the friendship path is chosen.

All 3 of them have feelings for each other and M&J had just gone through the most tumultuous time whereby they each developed feelings for a guy, which was especially significant in Maya's case. Why then M&J just forgive, forget, and get back together so easily is baffling and, as I've said many time before, a better solution would have been that they all remain friends with none of them being in any kind of formal relationship with the other so they can have time to figure things out.

This is what should have been the automatic option on the DIK path where instead of being flat-out rejected for reasons that seem completely nonsensical, they would all essentially "take a break" from each other to figure things out and be allowed to try and repair the damage with individual scenes where the MC, and the player, could get a better sense of what these girls are and were going through and why they did what they did.

Yes, but do they? I take your point about the scene, but I have to ask. Does Maya or Josey really care for the MC?

Yes. Josy was prepared to dump Maya for the MC as per their conversation on the phone before she arrived and Maya was also ready to take that same step just before showed up. Josy also tells the MC during their date at her house that he's not simply there, "because I'm lonely", and Maya's inner dialogue after the cum-petition makes it clear that his very presences is making her fell something very deeply for him.

Even on the rejected path they make it clear that do care for him and that they were simply scared to admit it as they were concerned he might not feel the same and/or they'd damage the recently repaired relationship with their other half.

Let me ask it this way, would Josey ever choose the MC over Maya, or would Maya ever choose MC over Josey? Obviously they would not. So the question is, would the MC be satisfied with a relationship where he was always second?

Again, yes. They were both going to do that in Ep 4 but the forced and coincidental meeting in Maya's dorm allowed them to reconcile a little bit and essentially calm that down, but had that not happened then they very well likely would have each committed to the MC and that would have led to a whole different level of drama.

Well, we did. But it's water under the bridge now. If Episode 6 finally goes back to finish up the corner (and maybe sand down the worst of the footprints while it's at it), at least we might finally be able to move on.

The problem here is that, for a lot of people, the dye has already been cast and so to try and correct the record now isn't going to change the minds of these people. You have to get it right in the first go because if you have to go back and correct it later, then that means you made a mistake.

 

[DavDR]

One has to assume they discuss 'us' in great detail off camera, otherwise this would be even longer than it alreadys is. Sometimes you just have to assume things...like people in films who never eat or go to the toilet.

Does everything really need spelling out to you in detail and handed on a silver platter? (and yes, part of the problem here that very few will admit is DPC's very inconsistant writing).

If they had discussed the MC, it seems to me that the truth would come out. It's a very intimate conversation, they're fighting about the misunderstandings of the summer, they reconcile. But how could they not discuss the relationship with mc? They have to know that the truth will come out eventually.

 

[TripleV]

Simple answer: Yes.

Proof:

• Josy came to B&R, where both MC and Maya are.
• Josy is facing a decision between MC or Maya.
• Josy call to MC, if she can sleep over at his dorm.
• Josy chose MC.

Yeah, I don't even understand how one could make an argument that either Maya or Josy wouldn't choose the MC as the whole game has made it clear that they would choose the MC in a heartbeat and don't really even seem to care that much about each other. Hell, when Josie has the meeting with her father, she doesn't seem to care at all if Maya is there to support her, but it is crucial for her that the MC is there even if they aren't in a relationship.

It is a beaten horse at this point, but I don't understand why the game didn't just make Maya and Josie to be friends as the current approach is deeply troublesome while not adding anything to the central themes.

 

[DavDR]

Simple answer: Yes.

Proof:

• Josy came to B&R, where both MC and Maya are.
• Josy is facing a decision between MC or Maya.
• Josy call to MC, if she can sleep over at his dorm.
• Josy chose MC.

I don't agree. As soon as she saw Maya the MC was out in the cold.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Yeah, I don't even understand how one could make an argument that either Maya or Josy wouldn't choose the MC as the whole game has made it clear that they would choose the MC in a heartbeat and don't really even seem to care that much about each other. Hell, when Josie has the meeting with her father, she doesn't seem to care at all if Maya is there to support her, but it is crucial for her that the MC is there even if they aren't in a relationship.

It is a beaten horse at this point, but I don't understand why the game didn't just make Maya and Josie to be friends as the current approach is deeply troublesome while not adding anything to the central themes.

At the end of the day, a lot, in fact all, of these issues would have been less complicated if it had been written better. This is so far, I would say, the biggest black mark against this game in that it did not handle this whole situation well at all and it's mainly how things went down in Ep 4.

I can understand and even rationalise a lot of the issues they've had up until that scene in Ep 4, particularly their apparent lack of ability to properly communicate their thoughts and feeling to one another, but had it been handled better, then this wouldn't continue to be such a hot topic for discussion.

I don't agree. As soon as she saw Maya the MC was out in the cold.

And this is why this part was written badly because what happened here doesn't make sense given how things were tracking with these relationships before it. It's also an issue caused by the "DIK rejection" because there's no reason why they should do this if the MC has done everything with them and been nothing but good to each of them.