VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[BeingADikDik]

Seems like a tough argument since the Massive CHICK Sage run also goes on a date with Josy while knowing she is in a relationship. He has sex with Sage outside of a committed relationship, too.

Agreed. If the Josy reunion is viewed as a 'date' even if the MC doesn't bring wine / flirt / etc., then it invalidates all Massive CHICK runs no matter the LI.

I don't think sex with Sage outside committed relationship is forced on the non-fuck buddy path though?

 

[vogelbeest]

Can you please explain to me, what makes this game so popular?

It's a good thing you try to find out what makes a good game and a popular game like this. But since you're asking to improve your own formula for succes i'd advice against making your own game a copy of this game. Most important is you should make a game you yourself would enjoy playing and working on. Starting out with a game this big in content, number of characters and optional side stories and paths is perhaps a bit too ambitious. No offence intended but you should realise DPC allready had a fanbase before he started this game i.o.w. be prepared to be in it for the long run but start with smaller steps so you grow.
And if you decide to make a story driven VN make sure you have a story and the skills to tell it or find a writer that does.

 

[ename144]

Agreed. If the Josy reunion is viewed as a 'date' even if the MC doesn't bring wine / flirt / etc., then it invalidates all Massive CHICK runs no matter the LI.

I don't think sex with Sage outside committed relationship is forced on the non-fuck buddy path though?

Sage throws herself at the MC in Episode 7, the last chance to get on her path. But the MC is free to bang all the other girls at the HOT party (before or after Sage), and she explicitly refuses to see herself as dating the MC until and unless he picks her at the crossroads in Episode 8.

I don't see that as much different than helping Maya with her scavenger hunt (from the MC's point of view, Maya obviously knows she's cheating). Likewise, it's nearly identical to the no-strings commitment of the throuple in Episode 5.

 

[BeingADikDik]

I heard EA is buying out DPC's game studio and that season 3 will heavily feature lootboxes and in-game microtransactions. Gotta capitalize on this game's popularity!

 

[BeingADikDik]

Sage throws herself at the MC in Episode 7, the last chance to get on her path. But the MC is free to bang all the other girls at the HOT party (before or after Sage), and she explicitly refuses to see herself as dating the MC until and unless he picks her at the crossroads in Episode 8.

I don't see that as much different than helping Maya with her scavenger hunt (from the MC's point of view, Maya obviously knows she's cheating). Likewise, it's nearly identical to the no-strings commitment of the throuple in Episode 5.

I need to replay Ep 7 - my recollection was that Sage was de facto committing to a relationship with MC at that point ('willing to wait').

Regarding the no-strings commitment, I view that very differently. Maya was saying that she wants the throuple to be exclusive, but that it should be by mutually consensual preference rather than an imposed condition.

 

[ename144]

I need to replay Ep 7 - my recollection was that Sage was de facto committing to a relationship with MC at that point ('willing to wait').

Regarding the no-strings commitment, I view that very differently. Maya was saying that she wants the throuple to be exclusive, but that it should be by mutually consensual preference rather than an imposed condition of the relationship.

That was Maya's end goal, yes, but she specifically didn't want to assume they were ready for that yet. Hence the wiggle room for the MC to pick a different girl at the crossroads.

I don't like the way that played out; it annoyed my Massive CHICK run that I was stuck not committing to M&J for the whole season, but it is what it is.

As for Sage, it's left deliberately ambiguous. But the MC's speech at the end of Episode 8 makes it clear that he intends to get a formal commitment out of her eventually, and she finally relents. That only makes sense if neither of them thought they had one previously.

 

[Kellermann]

I heard EA is buying out DPC's game studio and that season 3 will heavily feature lootboxes and in-game microtransactions. Gotta capitalize on this game's popularity!

This wounds me.

I am, however, starting to agree with those who have surmised that DPC wants to go more mainstream with his next game. Something less porn and more adult (like Mass Effect levels of lewdness). More story and adventure than sexy time is what I mean. With his comments on Interlude and AL, it seems he enjoys serious things (drama) more than fun things.

 

[ename144]

This wounds me.

I am, however, starting to agree with those who have surmised that DPC wants to go more mainstream with his next game. Something less porn and more adult (like Mass Effect levels of lewdness). More story and adventure than sexy time is what I mean. With his comments on Interlude and AL, it seems he enjoys serious things (drama) more than fun things.

Yes, DPC does seem to prefer drama (though I'd say he's stronger at the lighthearted stuff). But I think he'd keep it x-rated, just because that appeals to him too; he mentioned disliking the 'adult content ghetto' effect in one of the old Q&As.

And to be honest, I'd probably give his serious game a shot if he doesn't completely mangle the end of BaDIK.

 

[AchedCroissant]

As long as DPC doesn't make his next game a medieval fantasy I'll be happy not because I don't like the genre

But with that genre he could turn it into a game of thrones and he could easily kill the characters

 

[Heyesey]

Dude you are cutting off like half the quote so you can show yourself that you are right, because somehow in your head Jill can do no wrong. If you don't want to debate, don't reply to me, lol.

I cut the quote off at the point where you proved you hadn't a cle what you were talking about. There's no debate to be had here.

 

[vogelbeest]

As long as DPC doesn't make his next game a medieval fantasy I'll be happy not because I don't like the genre

But with that genre he could turn it into a game of thrones and he could easily kill the characters

Be quiet! Before we know it there's another "Squid Game - the VN" here just because you don't like the dark ages and want DPC to kill the majority of the characters... There's drama and there's genocide.... there's a difference!

 

[Heyesey]

Re: Jill/Sage date vs. caring for sick friend

DPC made a mistake with this setup, IMO. Caring for sick Sage shouldn't negatively impact the Jill route unless there is a strong narrative reason in future seasons. (That seems unlikely, as both Sage and Jill are LI's.)

Instead, there should have been a pre-emptive major choice: accept Tommy's olive branch to go out to the bar with fake ID or turn him down to go on the picnic date with Jill. Then, if MC finds out that Sage is sick, there could be a second choice to turn down Tommy (Sage path or others path) or to reschedule the picnic date to the next day (Jill path but keeps Sage path open).

edit to add: In fact, by rescheduling the Jill picnic to the following day for such a selfless reason, this should HELP convince Jill that MC is worth fighting for - unless MC is fuck buddies with Sage ... then, Jill might be suspicious.

All makes a lot of sense. I think everyone agrees that having that decision be so important and yet not obviously so, is a bit of a mistake.

It just irks me that people think it means Jill *thinks less of you.* She's already decided she has to stop seeing you, for your own sake. The problem here is just that if you don't go on the picnic, you miss your chance to convince her otherwise - and there's no way of knowing that it's your only chance.

She probably does think better of you for passing her up to look after an ill person. But that's all the more reason she will try to avoid Tybalt suing you - she doesn't want you to get in trouble. Naive, but hardly the act of someone who now doesn't like you any more!

 

[Heyesey]

In fact, come to think of it, this entire thing is nullified if there were just one scene, if you don't go for the picnic hangout, where Jill comes to the dorm to tell you why she can't see you any more, and you still get a chance to convince her otherwise.

 

[Walter Victor]

What does annoy me is the rejection based upon not going to Jill picnic instead of taking care of a sick friend. Most players I've seen also feel the same way about that. It's not one of the better logic moments in game.

It may be a poor predicate for her decision. The test here is on 'ep7_jill_lewd' which you only get if you went on the picnic with Jill instead of going to Sage. A fairer test might have been 'ep7_jill_talk' which you get if you choose to fight for Jill and go and throw rocks at her window.

However, you get the former if you've done the latter and have been on the picnic where Jill realizes her feelings for the MC and triggers the masturbation scene, which actually triggers the 'lewd' tag. In that sense, it kind of differentiates between her having the hots for the MC and putting him in the dreaded friend zone. Which, in a way, explains her feelings for the MC at the Tybalt dinner scene. She's either in love with him or she's not. If she's not, she tells him that, thanks him if he helped her at the concert, and would like them to remains friends.

This was a Sophie's Choice scenario for the MC, where he had to choose between seeing the girl he really loves or tending to a sick friend - assuming you are on the Jill path and only friends (or at best fuck-buddies) with Sage.

As for Jill 'humiliating' the MC in public... She actually lets him down pretty gently, and still wants to be friends. Humiliation is what she does to Tybalt, not how she handles the MC. As for it being in public, he kind of brought that on himself, didn't he, by dashing into the restaurant on his white charger?

By the way, most of this is not directed at you. I just used your post to say a few things that have come to mind after reading a lot of nonsense over the last dozen or so pages.

 

[Crusader of Romance]

As others have said, the problem is that Jill is making an unusually big request here (going on an unannounced date for reasons she refuses to disclose to the MC), yet she literally expects the MC to drop everything and say yes immediately. If he points out that he already has plans, Jill takes it as a personal affront - muttering to herself that the MC doesn't act like he cares about her when he tries to spend time with her later.

I agree she isn't a raging asshole as some have claimed, but she is completely out of line to treat the MC this way. Realistically, it makes it clear that any relationship with her is likely doomed because it's only a matter of time until the MC is once again unable to dote on her hand and foot. I'm certain that's not what DPC was going for, but that's what he wound up writing.

In short, it's ridiculous for Jill to treat the MC more harshly when he agrees to tend to a sick friend than when he fucks that friend behind her boyfriend's back, yet here we are.

She comes with a birthday surprise, not some major request. And she doesn't take it as a personal affront. She's a bit disappointed. It's just that without that special moment together they would have at that picnic the spark isn't lit for her. So when he tries to have sex with her, she feels like they aren't as close as she wishes they were because they never had that special moment together that made her feel like it was right, the moment he convinced her to give him a chance. Without that key moment she kept feeling insecure about the whole thing.

Should she ignore her own feelings and just go with it so not to hurt MC's feelings, because that's basically what you're saying. That she was out of line to feel the way she did and to tell him how she felt. So, she should have just pretended everything was OK and ignored her gut feeling and not been honest with him?

Also, she doesn't know he was with a sick friend (and you make it sound like Sage was terminally ill or something, she had a cold). She's not upset about him helping a friend who got a cold, she just feels like they aren't connecting the way she expected them to because they never had that key moment together.

 

[Crusader of Romance]

In fact, come to think of it, this entire thing is nullified if there were just one scene, if you don't go for the picnic hangout, where Jill comes to the dorm to tell you why she can't see you any more, and you still get a chance to convince her otherwise.

It's not just the info, it's the moment. They had a special moment that made her feel it was right to be with the MC but if you don't go with her that special moment never happened.

 

[sixart]

She comes with a birthday surprise, not some major request. And she doesn't take it as a personal affront. She's a bit disappointed. It's just that without that special moment together they would have at that picnic the spark isn't lit for her. So when he tries to have sex with her, she feels like they aren't as close as she wishes they were because they never had that special moment together that made her feel like it was right, the moment he convinced her to give him a chance. Without that key moment she kept feeling insecure about the whole thing.

Should she ignore her own feelings and just go with it so not to hurt MC's feelings, because that's basically what you're saying. That she was out of line to feel the way she did and to tell him how she felt. So, she should have just pretended everything was OK and ignored her gut feeling and not been honest with him?

Also, she doesn't know he was with a sick friend (and you make it sound like Sage was terminally ill or something, she had a cold). She's not upset about him helping a friend who got a cold, she just feels like they aren't connecting the way she expected them to because they never had that key moment together.

Quite the romantic... ( see what I did there ? ) Also it's accurate what has happened there... but it's more fun to create some alternate version where folks are able to like or dislike someone so telling the truth about what's going on here is futile ( and probably not many have here psychology degree to understand it let alone the lack of will to do so )

 

[NewTricks]

That only because of a bug that makes the game flag the MC to be sleeping around if he doesn't go on that birthday date with her. It only exists because the Dev never thought anybody on Jill's route would skip that date since it's a very important part. It's not just feeding the horses, it's the moment you convince her that you are serious about her and to not let Tybalt control your lives.
In other words, the game tells Jill the MC is sleeping around on her.

This is true. I checked it out and there are only a few points where the romance can be disabled with checks against your DIK Affinity. One is when she is struggling with the piano and decides not to call you if you are a DIK. Another is if you refuse to get up on stage and let Bella help her instead. But the Picnic isn't supposed to be one of them. The bug has to do with another checkpoint where she tells you in the hallway what Tybalt is doing. If your DIK affinity is massive DIK it is game over for the romance at that point. Your MC will even have dialogues that he isn't interested in her anymore. It only gets dicey if you are at Neutral DIK affinity and then swap over to DIK affinity before you go to intercept her at the dinner. That is why the rejection scene is pretty tough to get, impossible to get at Chick or Neutral affinity and if you were a DIK during that hallway conversation the romance is already disabled so you won't even try to go to the dinner.

 

[Walter Victor]

If you chose for the MC to be on the Jill branch, there are actually 3 tests in an 'or' statement that will throw your MC into the Other branch. The first is whether the MC went to the picnic or not (the one that has thrown this thread into a dumpster fire). The second is if the MC is a DIK. If the MC does not at least have a Neutral affinity, he has no chance with Jill. The third is a variable set when the MC goes to meet Jill's friends. If it's not set on, the MC gets rejected. This one looks to be redundant, since you don't get it unless you got the first one and I don't see a way to avoid it if you did.

So, if I'm reading the code right, if you've been to the dinner party where the MC meets Jill's friends, you've already been to the picnic with Jill. And as long as the MC doesn't have a DIK affinity, he shouldn't get rejected.

 

[shazba]

I'd like to preface this post with the fact that I actually like all the characters, warts and all. I enjoy all the drama and don't have a problem with how any of the game is going so far. When I'm bashing the characters, I'm not complaining about how the game has been written, I'm just enjoying dissecting the characters and their choices. None of it's important, it's all just a bit of fun.

Have you *actually played* this game?

Jill's decided she has to go along with Tybalt and never see you again. If you don't go with her to hear this in person, you miss the chance to change her mind. Stop spinning a pile of rubbish about her being vindictive.

The mc meets up with her a number of times after the Sage/Jill decision:

• The very next day (it seems, but it could be a few days later), he meets up with her at college and has almost the same discussion with her that would have taken place at the picnic (regarding the blackmail), she tells him about the blackmail, he tells her Tybalt is lying, she says they should stay apart, he says he wants to see her. The only thing missing is the picnic and the rain groping.
• Then they get together for a fun game of tennis (balling Tybalt's balls and knocking his teeth our have no impact on Jill's feelings for the mc).
• The he super romantically climbs her balcony, to romance her some more. She admits that she's happy he snuck in. She laughs and gets butterflies and then shits herself over her own sexual insecurities. She definitely likes him, just to what degree.
• Later they chat over the phone when she invites the mc to her recital. She's still nervous and the mc tells her she'll be great.
• Then she catches up with mc and the Scooby Gang to invite everyone to the recital.

At this point it's already clear that Jill is no longer interested in the mc. When Derek mentions she "dated" the mc, she just says, "Um... Yes, well, anyway... Uh." Like it was some mistake she made in the past. And she has no intention at that point to invite him to meet her friends.

Anyway, back to the sequence of events:

• So mc misses out on another date with Jill, when she goes to see her friends.
• Then it's the recital, and she has her meltdown, and then, like a total superhero boyfriend, the mc goes up on stage and saves her bacon. I mean who the fuck in real life would do such a thing. It's the kind of romantic insanity that only happens in movies and AVNs. When a guy does that kind of amazing shit for you, it has to count for something, right?

The next time they see each other, the mc has just literally run across town to save her ass from Tybalt (OK, she handled this one entirely on her own), and he tells her such, "I ran across the city to find you."

But her response to everything that has happened, is to turn to him, after absolutely destroying Tybalt:

Jill: "And you..."​

And then she goes on to say how she can't handle bailing him out all the time, even though he literally told her not to.

He says he wants to keep dating, she says no, he asks for a second chance, she says no. And she did all of this in a very public place where all eyes were on her after yelling a Tybalt moments earlier.

So the mc got to explain himself, and numerous times they definitely enjoyed each other's company (there are plenty of scenes that unquestionably show how Jill is totally into the mc), and then all because the mc chooses to see Sage over Jill, she cuts him off.

He still explains his side to her, he still risks getting caught for her, he still practices her music and helps her through what could have been a very upsetting recital. It's just not enough for Jill. And that's OK, but she still didn't have to dump him in the restaurant in such a scene...

Re: Jill/Sage date vs. caring for sick friend

DPC made a mistake with this setup, IMO. Caring for sick Sage shouldn't negatively impact the Jill route unless there is a strong narrative reason in future seasons. (That seems unlikely, as both Sage and Jill are LI's.)

Instead, there should have been a pre-emptive major choice: accept Tommy's olive branch to go out to the bar with fake ID or turn him down to go on the picnic date with Jill. Then, if MC finds out that Sage is sick, there could be a second choice to turn down Tommy (Sage path or others path) or to reschedule the picnic date to the next day (Jill path but keeps Sage path open).

edit to add: In fact, by rescheduling the Jill picnic to the following day for such a selfless reason, this should HELP convince Jill that MC is worth fighting for - unless MC is fuck buddies with Sage ... then, Jill might be suspicious.

Although I like to hang shit on Jill for this turn of events, it's actually realistic that a relationship can be fucked up by such a thing.

People who have argued that caring for Sage is a "Chick" thing to do, and therefore Jill should reward you for such a thing rather than it be the catalyst for the end of the relationship, are taking the Chick/DIK concept too far.

While this is indeed a computer program, if done right, it shouldn't feel like a computer program. There shouldn't be a formula to follow that is always right, because life isn't like that, and the game endeavours to emulate life (to an entertaining degree, we don't actually need to see every time the mc needs to take a dump).

So even though we know that Jill goes for "Chick" guys, that doesn't mean all "Chick" actions will get her juices flowing.

So when a potential girlfriend wants to go out and you've made plans with a different girl, don't say, "Sorry, I'm actually off to see another girl, she's sick and needs me to massage her tits". My advice, tell her you need to help your father deal with the bittersweet emotions of it being your birthday but your mom died giving you birth. That shit is gold.

I really hope Pink somehow explains this strange choice. The only thing that comes to my mind is that Sage and Jill, if not enemies, then clearly treat each other badly. Jill could somehow find out that this sick friend is Sage and be offended by MC. Maybe if we reject Jill for Sage, it will somehow explain it.

I don't think there will be a further explanation for Jill's choices. She's already explained herself. Do you really want an in depth explanation to the workings of the female mind?

The birthday date was what made her realize she had strong feelings towards the MC as well as realize that he had strong feelings for her. It was an important moment. The problem is that the game doesn't show us that the date is that important and sort of tricks many into choosing to go to Sage because of that.

The thing is, she already very much enjoys the mc's company. She already likes him a lot. There are, however, red flags in the relationship (him getting into fights, pranking the preps, fucking heaps of other women).

There easily could have been other dates, but she decided to end it all because he turned her down once. The mc wasn't asking her to marry him...

This wounds me.

I am, however, starting to agree with those who have surmised that DPC wants to go more mainstream with his next game. Something less porn and more adult (like Mass Effect levels of lewdness). More story and adventure than sexy time is what I mean. With his comments on Interlude and AL, it seems he enjoys serious things (drama) more than fun things.

I was thinking more like The Witcher 4: Dandelion and Geralt.

Also known as The Witcher 4: DnG.

She comes with a birthday surprise, not some major request. And she doesn't take it as a personal affront. She's a bit disappointed. It's just that without that special moment together they would have at that picnic the spark isn't lit for her. So when he tries to have sex with her, she feels like they aren't as close as she wishes they were because they never had that special moment together that made her feel like it was right, the moment he convinced her to give him a chance. Without that key moment she kept feeling insecure about the whole thing.

Should she ignore her own feelings and just go with it so not to hurt MC's feelings, because that's basically what you're saying. That she was out of line to feel the way she did and to tell him how she felt. So, she should have just pretended everything was OK and ignored her gut feeling and not been honest with him?

Also, she doesn't know he was with a sick friend (and you make it sound like Sage was terminally ill or something, she had a cold). She's not upset about him helping a friend who got a cold, she just feels like they aren't connecting the way she expected them to because they never had that key moment together.

She actually does know he was with a sick friend:

mc: "I'm so sorry. You caught me at a bad time."​

mc: "I made a promise to a friend to come help her."​

mc: "She's sick and needs someone to take care of her."​

Jill: "Oh... Yeah, of course. I understand." (Seriously, you're choosing another girl over me!?)​

Jill: "I didn't plan anything big. It was spontaneous." (I went to all this trouble, for nothing!?)​

Jill: "You're allowed to have other plans. Haha..." (Well, that's the last time I do anything nice for you!)​

Jill: "So, uh. Happy birthday." (Fuck you!)​

But just look at Jill response. It's dripping with spite!