RPGM Abandoned Boy Hero Ken ~Haunted House Investigation~ [2020-11-22] [Sixth Flowerbed]

[kinglionheart]

Yupp, and there it is. Dude, you show such toxic as fuck narcissistic egotism that it's odor can be smelled through the monitor. Nobody is defending villains, and by the way, "villain" implies that they are the "antagonist" of a story, not the "protagonist" of the story. Do a simple google search for the word "anti-hero" and enlighten yourself, you have no excuse at all here to be insulting your intelligence like this for no reason. Like I said before, keep this up and you have no right to get mad when someone calls you stupid or just in general insults you for stupidity.

If a protagonist in your eyes doesn't do the absolute good dying as a hero following all the moral good rules, then he is no "hero" to you, he's just a villain who did some good things.

The world isn't just black and white my dude, there are tons of shades of grey areas. Not everything has to swing towards an inside the box pendulum mold of extreme good and extreme evil, as if there's no in-between at all, for you it has to be extreme good vs extreme evil. Make it make sense.

The fuck are you on about Hitler? Would I be safe in assuming that you're one of those idiots who love to LARP about being a communist and obsess about fighting against "White Supremacy"?

And there is it. When a person can't make good points, he resort to name-calling. Even the points you are try to make shows you don't understand what you are saying. Hero not equal Protagonist. Villain not equal Antagonist. Protagonist is the person we are watching. Villain is the person who do bad things for bad reasons. Keyaru is a villain protagonist because we are watching him do evil acts for his selfish reasons. That has the side affect of good does not matter. He is a villain. He is not a anti-hero because he is not trying to do good. In Literature only a character's intent defines their character not their results.

 

[Hentai_Desu-ka?]

And there is it. When a person can't make good points, he resort to name-calling. (I already told you what would happen when you continuously insult your own intelligence like this. By the way fyi, I didn't insult your intelligence, I only pointed out to you the fact that you're insulting your own intelligence, there's a difference.)

Even the points you are you're try to make shows you don't understand what you are you're saying.

Hero not equal Protagonist. Villain not equal Antagonist. Protagonist is the person we are watching. (Just correcting some grammar, don't mind me. What even is this English?)

Villain is the person who do bad things for bad reasons. (Where is the evidence that Keyaru does bad things for only bad reasons?)

Keyaru is a villain protagonist because we are watching him do evil acts for his selfish reasons. (Prove it.)

That has the side affect of good does not matter. (His reasons are justifiably understandable given that we do in fact have context as to why he seeks revenge. You don't have to agree with what he does.)

He is a villain. (Once again, prove it.)

He is not a anti-hero because he is not trying to do good. (The definition of what an anti-hero is and the definition of what a villain is, say otherwise.)

In Literature only a character's intent defines their character not their results. (Did we even fucking watch the same show, or are you from some parallel universe where Keyaru did nothing but bad things? We literally have context for as to why Keyaru does the things he does, the people who did him wrongs are the ones being punished, just because he reset time back to a point in time to still have his memories of this doesn't fucking change or erase the fact that they're still the same people who would've done the same shitty things if they had the chance and he even proved that this is just in their fucking nature before he went on with his plan to get revenge. He gave them a fucking chance to redeem themselves in his eyes but all they did was proved and confirmed to him that he needed to act!)

Just because I'm next level petty.

 

[Lewyn Collins]

Does that mean you think Hitler was a anti-hero? After all he believed he was preventing genocide against his own people and it was "just retaliation".

My guy, a piece of advice. They don't want your explanations and they certainly don't want to understand. Don't waste your precious time trying to teach a person who doesn't want to learn, it's futile. Besides, if you continue on this line, mods will eventually erase the whole conversation and all your efforts will have been futile.

 

[Lewyn Collins]

Well for anyone willing to actually learn: what is an anti-hero?
An anti-hero is a character with a grey morality, far from the whiteness we are used with heroes. An anti-hero is that character who does the right thing even if that paints him as evil. But what does this mean? What's its difference with a villain?

It's their intentions what makes the difference. Let's use an example from a character that was already named: Keyaru, from Redo of healer. Keyaru is a poor bastard that after suffering things we shall not repeat here, he finds himself back before his hell started. Then, he decides to start his vengeance on the people that hurt him that badly.
Until here everything is alright. Sure, they haven't done anything to him yet because of the time skip, but they will. And maybe he's not the first. Until right now, everything seems fine. Sure, he's full of rage and spite but we can all empathise with him, even if he's not a hero or an anti-hero. At this point, he's simply a main character.

And then, it happens: that one guy and his squad of knights go to his village, kill everyone and even rape his childhood friend, the only person in this world that gave him a little peace of mind. After that, on his own words, he tells the reader that if they wanted him to be a monster, they succeded. To this point onwards, he will cast aside any decency he had and will start using anyone. Lying, abusing trust, manipulation... There's that beast girl he didn't even know, yet he didn't waste a single minute before manipulating her. And this, wheter we like or not, is the mentality of a villain.

Same with Anakin Skywalker, whose obsesion with saving his wife overrun even HIS WIFE. He didn't even care about what she wanted anymore. And this, my friends, lead us to a perfect example of an actual anti-hero: Shadow the hedgehog.

Shadow is an artifical life form created to acompany Maria, the ill daughter of Doctor Eggman. He's also the definitive life form and his actual purpose is to investigate for a cure to her. In multiple occasions, he does questionable things, but he never, EVER, does anything that could disturbe the rest of the now late Maria. His intentions now are simply to live a life whithout regrets and watching the world Maria never could. He may have done questionable thins but he never crossed the line or disrespected Maria's memory. He even helped Sonic's group multiple times.

And here lies the actual difference between a villain and an anti-hero. Intentions, attitude towards life and actions. An anti-hero is simply a hero in the shadow, doing the things the hero can't but without crossing the line that will turn him into a villain. The villain, meanwhile, is too far gone to reach him. Thank you.

 

[Other005]

It depends on which version of anti-hero you are talking about because as far as I know there are cultural differences between them. If you are talking about the American version then you are right, But if you are talking about the Japanese or Oriental version you are wrong.
Japanese anti-heroes, like heroes, are a little different, just like heroes, they kill and don't help people who hurt them, unlike Americans where you always see heroes saving villains, Japanese heroes are like many cliché stories from another world. they have an obligation to kill the demon king and any demon that is with him.
By the way, the discussion about Keyaru ends here.

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[Lewyn Collins]

It depends on which version of anti-hero you are talking about because as far as I know there are cultural differences between them. If you are talking about the American version then you are right, But if you are talking about the Japanese or Oriental version you are wrong.
Japanese anti-heroes, like heroes, are a little different, just like heroes, they kill and don't help people who hurt them, unlike Americans where you always see heroes saving villains, Japanese heroes are like many cliché stories from another world. they have an obligation to kill the demon king and any demon that is with him.
By the way, the discussion about Keyaru ends here.

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You are wrong. Japanese anti-heroes are just like the western anti-heroes (and yes, western, not american. The United States are not the center of the universe). In fact, the anti-hero archeotype exists since Ancient Greece and Japan only copied those models, like they do with a shitton of stuff from European lore, like the archeotypical isekai medieval world model.

 

[Other005]

The same goes for the antiheroes who are a little more brutal in their reckoning. By the way, all antiheroes border on villainy, they often make questionable choices but they never use people they like to achieve their goals. Unlike villains who use everything they have to do so.

 

[Other005]

I put Americans because I saw a comparison between Darth Vader and Keyaru. American antiheroes rarely kill, they may come in and work with heroes for selfish reasons but they only kill when they have no choice, such as to prevent a catastrophe. The Japanese who kill are more selfish and don't care what you think of their decisions. example. Wolverine and this

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[Lewyn Collins]

I see the giant explanation I wrote fell on deaf ears. Alright guys. I see I wasted my time here.

 

[Other005]

You are wrong. Japanese anti-heroes are just like the western anti-heroes (and yes, western, not american. The United States are not the center of the universe). In fact, the anti-hero archeotype exists since Ancient Greece and Japan only copied those models, like they do with a shitton of stuff from European lore, like the archeotypical isekai medieval world model.

Even so, there is a difference between them, if you read the stories you will notice.

 

[Other005]

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[kinglionheart]

I put Americans because I saw a comparison between Darth Vader and Keyaru. American antiheroes rarely kill, they may come in and work with heroes for selfish reasons but they only kill when they have no choice, such as to prevent a catastrophe. The Japanese who kill are more selfish and don't care what you think of their decisions. example. Wolverine and this

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American antiheroes kill all the time. There is a name for them, vigilantes. The best example would be Punisher. It is in Japan, heroes that kill is rare and seen as a defect. In Arifureta, the MC when seen killing, his traditional classmates is disguised despite how justified it is. But he is not a villain because he only uses those extreme methods for good reasons like protect his love ones not satisfing this desires.

 

[kinglionheart]

I see the giant explanation I wrote fell on deaf ears. Alright guys. I see I wasted my time here.

The guy who brings up Stalin and communism for whatever reason won't care but I agree with you on what differentiate a villain and anti-hero is intention. I brought up Vader because I thought his actions would be so clear people would not think he was not villain. I was wrong.

A great example of someone who is so close to both villain and anti-hero would be The Boys. They are fighting a corrupt heroes and the system that gave birth to. They have a just cause and are doing what they are doing because the heroes can't be tried normally. But they use such brutal methods causing so much damage along the way. They even start enjoying themselves causing damage like when they use Compound V but they still make decisions a hero would do like save others. They are just hard to classify as either anti-heroes or villains depending on the time.

 

[Other005]

So you agree, good. I don't know much about the Punisher, I only saw his film where he sees his wife and daughter being killed and then he makes the villain of the film kill his friend and his wife and then he kills him which is a good reason. But I'm very connected to comics and character qualifications and from what I hear the vigilante is a dark anti-hero, I was talking about the moderate ones, but even in that regard, there are differences between the Americans and the Japanese. If you read it you will understand.

 

[Other005]

It's like Batman and Superman, Batman would be a dark hero and Superman would be a moderate hero.

 

[Hentai_Desu-ka?]

You are wrong. Japanese anti-heroes are just like the western anti-heroes (and yes, western, not american. The United States are not the center of the universe). In fact, the anti-hero archeotype exists since Ancient Greece and Japan only copied those models, like they do with a shitton of stuff from European lore, like the archeotypical isekai medieval world model.

Once again I must reiterate, this is a false view of just you, a Westerner, trying to project and inject your Western views of moral good vs moral evil onto how the East would view a character like Keyaru.

Keyaru objectively in both the Western & the Eastern views as far as anyone is concerned without everyone mindlessly injecting their own personal biases on the character, is classified as an anti-hero, whether we like it or not, he meets the definition.

Everyone can agree he's a piece of shit as a person to which nobody in their right minds disputes.

Remove the biases that everyone injects onto him, he meets the definition of an anti-hero. The same goes for Naofumi Iawatani from Rising of the Shield Hero, when you look at it on the surface, he only cares about himself primarily because he was forced to do so, and only goes out of his way to look out for himself. Just because Rising of the Shield Hero isn't necessarily as dark as a Dark Fantasy can go, doesn't change the fact that the two characters share the similar traits that define what an anti-hero is.

Keyaru only becomes a villain after he's exacted his revenge in full, and then proceeds to continue doing acts of evil on innocents who've never wronged him.

 

[kinglionheart]

Poor Hajime and Naofumi. Just because they are the most famous protagonist of the revenge isekai type stories, people use them to say all these types of stories' protagonist are the same. Even if their actions are completely different. It is the same as people who say The Sentry is the same as Superman because of a similar powerset.
Sorry Hajime and Naofumi you guys don't deserve to put on the same level as Keyaru.

 

[Lewyn Collins]

Once again I must reiterate, this is a false view of just you, a Westerner, trying to project and inject your Western views of moral good vs moral evil onto how the East would view a character like Keyaru.

Keyaru objectively in both the Western & the Eastern views as far as anyone is concerned without everyone mindlessly injecting their own personal biases on the character, is classified as an anti-hero, whether we like it or not, he meets the definition.

Everyone can agree he's a piece of shit as a person to which nobody in their right minds disputes.

Remove the biases that everyone injects onto him, he meets the definition of an anti-hero. The same goes for Naofumi Iawatani from Rising of the Shield Hero, when you look at it on the surface, he only cares about himself primarily because he was forced to do so, and only goes out of his way to look out for himself. Just because Rising of the Shield Hero isn't necessarily as dark as a Dark Fantasy can go, doesn't change the fact that the two characters share the similar traits that define what an anti-hero is.

Keyaru only becomes a villain after he's exacted his revenge in full, and then proceeds to continue doing acts of evil on innocents who've never wronged him.

Anti hero: a central character in a story, film, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attribute.
Villain: a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot.

There, dictionary definitions. Not a "false view of mine". Now tell me, in which cathegory would you put Keyaru?

Naofumi is an anti hero, as he never crosses certain lines even after everything that happened to him. Do you really not see the differences between Naofumi and Keyaru, man? In fact, in the end, you say Keyaru IS villain. You recognized it, yourself. But he was never an anti hero, he was simply the main character, that's it. He had none of the traits of an anti-hero, unlike Naofumi. Sadly I know I'm wasting my time here, so I won't bother entering this ridiculous debate again, starting from now. Farewell.

 

[Other005]

Where did you read the same? I only saw similar ones.

 

[Lewyn Collins]

Poor Hajime and Naofumi. Just because they are the most famous protagonist of the revenge isekai type stories, people use them to say all these types of stories' protagonist are the same. Even if their actions are completely different. It is the same as people who say The Sentry is the same as Superman because of a similar powerset.
Sorry Hajime and Naofumi you guys don't deserve to put on the same level as Keyaru.

Those 2 are actual anti-heroes, unlike that piece of shit Keyaru.